(be warned some spoilers) Jeopardy Face Off

easysurfer

Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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Now we're talkin'.

Mano a Mano a Mano to see who comes out on top.

Starting in January, Jeopardy! The Greatest of All Time will bring Ken Jennings, Brad Rutter, and Jamez Holzhauer together to face off in a true battle of Jeopardy champions. Basically, they'll compete in a series of matches, and the first one to win three will win a million dollars and the title of "Jeopardy! The Greatest Of All Time."

Holzhauer just won the 2019 Tournament of Champions, after setting the record for all 15 of the top single-day winnings earlier this year. He's got a total of $2,712,216 in prize money, the least of the three champs.

Ken Jennings won 74 consecutive games of Jeopardy in 2004, the most consecutive wins of any player, for a total of $3,370,700.

Brad Rutter has the highest winnings of all time not just on Jeopardy, but on any game show, with a total of $4,688,436. He has only lost Jeopardy! to a computer and Ken Jennings.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/j...to-primetime-in-january/ar-BBWXcWZ?li=BBnb7Kz
 
I don't watch the show much but I love how Jeopardy James has changed the game with his aggressive style of play. I am rooting for him!
 
It must be fun to be the writers for this tournament--imagine coming up with the "answers"!
 
My brother loves Jeopardy, so this will be a treat for him.
 
Looking forward to it. However, in any game, there is an element of chance. I can't help but think that any of these great performers could have just had a bad game against a good competitor early on, and been out after just a few (or one!) game, and we would never know their names.

Maybe the greatest Jeopardy player of all time lost their first game? You never know.

I read an interview where Ken Jennings wasn't sure he could be as confident as James and place those big bets. But it's kind of funny that the game went on so long before James came forward with his aggressive strategy. When you look at the success rates of the really good players, James' approach makes perfect sense.

-ERD50
 
Amen brother. Can't wait. James will smokem.

I haven't followed Jeopardy enough as am only familiar with James and Jennings. Will be fun to see their different strategies. James the better vs Jennings more pragmatic?
 
I look forward to this. I didn't watch that much when Jennings was on. James had a great bettor's approach to DJs. It was a 50/50 payout, and he almost always felt he had a better than 50/50 shot. Much better, since he rarely missed a question.
 
My problem with James -- not personal -- is that what he has done to Jeopardy in terms of analytics is what has happened to baseball. Knowing how to make data-driven decisions may help you win, but it makes the game (IMO) a lot less fun to watch. I was in awe, I was impressed... but it wasn't fun for me.

I didn't enjoy his run, when 3/4 of the games were over before the final. IMO that is not compelling watching. Apparently a lot of people loved it, because they can't stop bringing James back, sooner, rather than later.

As I saw in an article late in his run earlier this year, someone wrote, "If you enjoy watching 9 players strike out before the 10th hits a homer, you'll love Jeopardy in the post-Holzhauer era".

To me, if Dr. Reid from "Criminal Minds" played Jeopardy, he would be James.
 
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My problem with James -- not personal -- is that what he has done to Jeopardy in terms of analytics is what has happened to baseball. Knowing how to make data-driven decisions may help you win, but it makes the game (IMO) a lot less fun to watch. I didn't enjoy his run, when 3/4 of the games were over before the final. IMO that is not compelling watching. Apparently a lot of people loved it, because they can't stop bringing James back, sooner, rather than later.

As I saw in an article late in his run earlier this year, someone wrote, "If you enjoy watching 9 players strike out before the 10th hits a homer, you'll love Jeopardy in the post-Holzhauer era".

To me, if Dr. Reid from "Criminal Minds" played Jeopardy, he would be James.

I see what you are saying about James. Intriguing though, having him go up against Jennings. Kind of like the turtle and the hare.

Speaking of Dr. Reid from "Criminal Minds" did you see that episode where they needed someone to play poker against the unsub in a tournament? They let him play over Rossi because of his "ability".
 
I see what you are saying about James. Intriguing though, having him go up against Jennings. Kind of like the turtle and the hare.
The whole "fishing for the Daily Double" thing turns me off. I wish they would truly randomize their placement on the board, so it could be in the top row -- and in the second round, both could be in the same category. I would love to see a rule change so there was no advantage to jumping around the board to look for them (or avoid them early, as James tries to do in the first round).
 
My problem with James -- not personal -- is that what he has done to Jeopardy in terms of analytics is what has happened to baseball. Knowing how to make data-driven decisions may help you win, but it makes the game (IMO) a lot less fun to watch. I was in awe, I was impressed... but it wasn't fun for me.

I didn't enjoy his run, when 3/4 of the games were over before the final. IMO that is not compelling watching. Apparently a lot of people loved it, because they can't stop bringing James back, sooner, rather than later.

As I saw in an article late in his run earlier this year, someone wrote, "If you enjoy watching 9 players strike out before the 10th hits a homer, you'll love Jeopardy in the post-Holzhauer era".

To me, if Dr. Reid from "Criminal Minds" played Jeopardy, he would be James.

To each his own, but I find it fascinating to watch someone who excels at something. That, on it's own is compelling.

I get that you are looking for a good match, but we get lots of those. I find the occasional "master player" run, like Jennings, to be fascinating. How can they be that much better than others? And then it's over, and back to more even matches. The master players are years apart, it's not like they dominate forever.

For me, it's a little like seeing Yo-Yo-Ma. I enjoy the concert and the extreme high level of performance. I'm not comparing him to any other cellist at that time, I'm in the moment, enjoying it in real time.


The whole "fishing for the Daily Double" thing turns me off. I wish they would truly randomize their placement on the board, so it could be in the top row -- and in the second round, both could be in the same category. I would love to see a rule change so there was no advantage to jumping around the board to look for them (or avoid them early, as James tries to do in the first round).

But every player has the same opportunity. James is just playing the game better. Isn't that what a contest is about?


-ERD50
 
But every player has the same opportunity. James is just playing the game better. Isn't that what a contest is about?
Did you hear me say that no one should use the rules to their best advantage, or not use an advantage within the rules that someone has discovered that will change the game?

I didn't think so.

I just think that like baseball, once inefficiencies are shown to be exploitable by data and analytics, maybe a tweak of the rules is in place. None of that suggests that the players should not do whatever they can within the rules to win.

Look, I appreciate excellence and ingenuity as much as the next person. But like baseball, this is a spectator sport and without spectators, there's no game. Sure, it was fun watching James revolutionize how the game should be played for a while, but again, like baseball.... once all the teams got into analytics the game got boring, even as I'd agree the teams would be stupid to ignore it if they wanted to win within the current rule set.

I don't see this as much different as a football team which has won the game before halftime almost every week. You can appreciate their greatness but it doesn't necessarily make it fun to watch. I can appreciate what he has done while lamenting how I think the future of the game will be affected by his success. They are not mutually exclusive. it doesn't mean someone hates achievement and winning, though that seems to be what you are implying I think.

I'm not saying "it isn't fair" and I'm not saying "he shouldn't play this way". He should do whatever he can within the rules to win. But when doing that makes the game boring and without any doubt as to the outcome in almost all cases, the rules may need re-examining. Of course, I already acknowledged that I might be in a minority here. I'm just saying what I would like to see personally. I hate the Daily Double fishing. I would prefer to see raw knowledge win, not analytics.
 
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I’m not a jeopardy watcher, but I found James Holzhauer fascinating, and I’m really glad I didn’t miss watching one of his shows at my cousin’s and heard the Planet Money podcast about him. As a sports bettor Planet Money occasionally has him on as an expert on other financial topics.
 
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My problem with James -- not personal -- is that what he has done to Jeopardy in terms of analytics is what has happened to baseball. Knowing how to make data-driven decisions may help you win, but it makes the game (IMO) a lot less fun to watch. I was in awe, I was impressed... but it wasn't fun for me.

I feel the same way. For similar reasons, I don't care to watch the Jeopardy tournaments even though I enjoy watching the regular shows.
 
I suspect James would've had the same success, and perhaps even more money if he'd have played the traditional way. He's at risk of losing control of the board at any point during the game, and if he built up his score with all of the lower money answers first he could bet even more on DJ. Perhaps he feels like the easier lower money questions get new players into the game more, and he'd rather try to catch the DJ while they are getting used to the lights and being on stage with Trebek.
 
James excelled mainly due to his incredible breadth of knowledge, not "analytics". I don't think there has ever been another contestant, and that includes Ken, Brad, & Emma, who knew such a high percentage of the answers/questions. His betting strategy on Daily Doubles made sense because the percentage of answers which he didn't know was extremely low. But he wasn't reckless; his bets on Daily Doubles also took into account whether it was early or late in the match, and how much his lead was.

All that said, Ken & Brad are presumably just as adept with the buzzer as James, and they also have impressive breadths of knowledge. I suspect that luck in finding Daily Doubles, and knowing the Final Jeopardy answer, will determine the winner. My money is on James.
 
Did you hear me say that no one should use the rules to their best advantage, or not use an advantage within the rules that someone has discovered that will change the game?

I didn't think so. ....

You addressed a rule, available to all, that James uses to his advantage. So change it because he's good at it? OK, you're not saying James should not use that, but you want to change it because he does? If a baseball team manages to build and train a team of strong hitters, do we change the rules on home runs? l don't get it.

edit/add - now if ALL the teams developed exceptional hitting skills, such that the most games felt unbalanced in terms of offense/defense, I could see where that might need to be addressed by rules changes.

As I said earlier, whether someone enjoys seeing a "master" at work, or finds the domination by one player boring, is personal preference. I respect, and even understand your viewpoint on that. But since it happens fairly rarely, just a handful of players have dominated the game for a long streak in all these years, I enjoy watching a streak, and spectators that don't like the dominant player get to see more balanced games when these rare streaks aren't in play. Seems we all get some of what we want, I think that's a good thing.

...

I'm not saying "it isn't fair" and I'm not saying "he shouldn't play this way". He should do whatever he can within the rules to win. But when doing that makes the game boring and without any doubt as to the outcome in almost all cases, the rules may need re-examining. Of course, I already acknowledged that I might be in a minority here. I'm just saying what I would like to see personally. I hate the Daily Double fishing. I would prefer to see raw knowledge win, not analytics.

I guess I don't understand how "Daily Double fishing" makes the game boring? Since all players can do it, how does it change anything? Don't those other players just need to up their game?

Is running a category boring, or do we marvel at their skill? If some find it boring, should that be outlawed (ALEX: I'm sorry James, you answered 3 in a category correctly, the new rules say we move on to the the lowest score contestant).

This is starting to sound like socialism :)

As far as changing the rules, I could go along with that if the situation was that with well matched players, the one with a slight advantage took the lead early, and just held it and grew it, such that few games ever had a Final that wasn't a run-away (one player with 2x the next, so that they can't be beat in Final). I could see where that meant there was a systemic problem with the rules, and they need to be modified for more even play.

But I can't see changing the rules just because a "Michael Jordan" comes along. The fact that these are as rare as they indicates to me that the rules are pretty well balanced. Just my view.

I wondered, so googled and found this, which unofficially shows that in 10 years (2005~2015), run-aways were ~ 22% (guestimate by eye) of the games. Is 22% too much? Maybe, I dunno:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Jeopardy/comments/3emcvv/runaways_by_year/

GwJeX2a.png



-ERD50
 
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You can appreciate their greatness but it doesn't necessarily make it fun to watch.

I can see that. To me the entertainment in jeopardy is playing along, seeing if I know the answer or not, and I like the show for the contest of raw fast knowledge v. knowledge.

Ken Jennings even 5 years ago admitted he'd have a very different experience now (pre-James) because his recall speed wasn't the same as it was back in 2004, just from being older. He was 30, now he's 45. Whereas James is 34/35 and was on just this year, so he'll have zero decline.

I wouldn't want to watch a match up football game today with Dan Marino vs. Tom Brady. Of course physical skills are more susceptible to age than mental sharpness, but it's there is still going to be a difference. And that might be painful to watch even if they all played with the same strategy.
 
First match was on tonight. I'm not going to give any spoilers since some, like me, may have recorded it to watch later. I thought it was pretty cool though. They have definitely upped the difficulty level of the questions.

The format is 2 games/night, and the combined score of the two games determines the winner for that night. So they have a double jeopardy at the end of the first game, but you don't want to bet for just that game. The leader might want to double up to hopefully get a bigger lead. The scores reset to 0 for the 2nd game, and at the end of that game the score is added to the first game. This makes betting a little trickier, but these are smart guys and I'm sure they won't have trouble.

I think they said first to win 3 nights is the overall winner.
 
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PSA - please avoid spoilers until well after the tournament. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to watch, but will not catch episodes in real time.

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PSA - please avoid spoilers until well after the tournament. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants to watch, but will not catch episodes in real time.

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Thank you. DW is having surgery Thursday and will not be able to watch it until Friday.
BTW, I tried out for Jeopardy, and never made it. It took Jasmes a number of tries, both the test and in person to get on the program. Now I do not feel so bad LOL
 
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