Boeing, 777x, and Machinists- voting again today

[supernova72]

Sort of jumping on an older post by Haha that is now closed.

http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/boeing-777x-and-machinists-union-69323.html

The machinists are voting again today here in WA state (Everett). The offer has been enhanced in several areas with wage progression and other 5K signing bonus on top of the initial 10K.. The one part that remains is the defined benefit pensions will be frozen in 2016 and closed to new hires.

IMHO what they are voting on in already in place (or will be soon) by the rest of the 140,000 employees in Engineering, IT, HR, Finance etc.

It's pretty heated debate here with the senior machinists holding firm with "vote NO" and the younger workforce wanting the jobs and security through 2024. Lets hope for the best otherwise there are 22 states drooling over the opportunity to take this work on.

Boeing machinists vote on contract crucial to 777X jetliner | Reuters

We (non IAM) are hearing our pensions will be frozen in 2016 was well. Not sure about retiree medical. Nothing official on when we will find out but my gut says after this vote is sorted out.

 

[haha]

Thanks for starting this. I could not understand why the prior thread was shut, so I was deterred from mentioning this event today.

I am not Boeing related, but I am very interested in how this goes. I want Jet City to remain what it has been. A Seattle made entirely of Amazonians and Microsofties would not be a very attractive place.

Ha

 

[Spanky]

My guess is that they would vote "NO".

 

[supernova72]

Thanks for starting this. I could not understand why the prior thread was shut, so I was deterred from mentioning this event today.

I am not Boeing related, but I am very interested in how this goes. I want Jet City to remain what it has been. A Seattle made entirely of Amazonians and Microsofties would not be a very attractive place.

Ha

i agree that it would be bad to lose this statement of work given the skills are here right now. But I'm biased and grew up in a Boeing family.

I also don't think the exec mgmt team is bluffing given they now have 6,000 employees in South Carolina post strike of 2008.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Sarah in SC]

given they now have 6,000 employees in South Carolina post strike of 2008.

It is a pretty cool site, too. I am always knocked out by how fast it all went up anytime I go to the airport here. We're delighted to have them here, that's for sure!

 

[Chuckanut]

The state is already courting Airbus. There's a lot of aircraft knowledge in the area.

The handwriting has been on the wall since Boeing moved it corporate headquarters to Chicago. If I was a young Boeing worker I would take the deal, and use my very good salary and benefits to make my own retirement. Then, they could move to Lower Slobovia for all I would care.

 

[lhamo]

I am also from a Boeing family (my dad was an engineer/SPEAA member) and I hope the vote goes through. I'm generally pro-labor, but in this case it really seems like the older generation is holding the younger generation hostage. They are living in a fantasy world.

How many people actually work long enough to get their pensions, anyway? Not sure of the details and maybe he made some poor choices, but my dad was a couple of years away from ER and a nice pension when he died of a heart attack at 52. My mom got nada -- she only would have gotten survivor benefits if he had already been ER-ed when he died.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to work in a place where retirement benefits were paid through a pension system. The thought of having to work 20-30 years in one place is a bit horrifying to me.

 

[supernova72]

I am also from a Boeing family (my dad was an engineer/SPEAA member) and I hope the vote goes through. I'm generally pro-labor, but in this case it really seems like the older generation is holding the younger generation hostage. They are living in a fantasy world.

How many people actually work long enough to get their pensions, anyway? Not sure of the details and maybe he made some poor choices, but my dad was a couple of years away from ER and a nice pension when he died of a heart attack at 52. My mom got nada -- she only would have gotten survivor benefits if he had already been ER-ed when he died.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to work in a place where retirement benefits were paid through a pension system. The thought of having to work 20-30 years in one place is a bit horrifying to me.

Sorry to hear about your father passing---before FIRE especially. My dad was an engineer as well but went into mgmt. He has passed now but had retired for 19 years before passing. So now my mom gets 50% of his pension. Medigap insurance and fed tax comes out of that pension check too.

So we Boeing (represented or not) have a pension and a 401K. If the machinists vote yes it will freeze the current accrual's in 2016. However they are adding a second retirement acct if they vote yes. It starts at 10%, 10%, 8%, then 6% then 4% from then on. So a new hire out not get a pension but would have two 401K's of sorts. The first 401K would increase to 75% match on the first 8%.

not sure how many new hires really expect a defined benefit pension plan---the young folks I know don't really know what one is actually. They want secure well paying job.

 

[samclem]

The state is already courting Airbus. There's a lot of aircraft knowledge in the area.

There's no way Airbus would set up serious operations in WA just to find themselves in the same position Boeing is in right now (strong unions, not a right-to-work state). They might set up a minor engineering center, but no big production operations. Aerospace workers who want to continue in that field probably need to be prepared to move.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

The state is already courting Airbus. There's a lot of aircraft knowledge in the area.

The handwriting has been on the wall since Boeing moved it corporate headquarters to Chicago. If I was a young Boeing worker I would take the deal, and use my very good salary and benefits to make my own retirement. Then, they could move to Lower Slobovia for all I would care.

Moving your headquarters to a place nearly 2,000 miles from your major production facility, seemed to me a bad move back then and doesn't look any better today.

Geez, Boeing builds airplanes and parts in a bunch of other different places, why not move to one of them. Sure, they probably have financial incentives to be in Chicago. But if you aren't building a good product then you are in trouble. Witness the 787 debacle.

 

[REWahoo]

I smell bacon - again.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

Cooler heads prevailed.

 

[jon-nyc]

Yes, the vote passed with 51%

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/01/03/us/ap-us-boeing-washington.html?hp

 

[supernova72]

It was approved but it was close---like 51% yes. Wow…

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/04/us-boeing-777xvote-idUSBREA0302220140104?feedType=RSS

 

[Chuckanut]

I smell bacon - again.

That smell of sizzling bacon, my friend, is for the people of WA state who dodged a bullet and will have a better economic future. Of course, they are also out the 8 BILLION dollars in subsidies granted to Boeing. Hopefully, the increased economic activity will result in a net gain. I think it will, but, time will tell.

 

[Dog]

I'm surprised the vote was that close. I live near the Everett facility. I don't know where they would find comparable jobs if Boeing left the area. I don't think their job skills would translate well to our other big employers (Amazon, Microsoft, UW and Group Health) or pay as well.

 

[supernova72]

Moving your headquarters to a place nearly 2,000 miles from your major production facility, seemed to me a bad move back then and doesn't look any better today.

Geez, Boeing builds airplanes and parts in a bunch of other different places, why not move to one of them. Sure, they probably have financial incentives to be in Chicago. But if you aren't building a good product then you are in trouble. Witness the 787 debacle.

IMHO the HQ move to Chicago had more to do with a post merger strategy than anything. There was a concern that Boeing was looked at as a "Puget Sound centric" company---meaning the world revolved around WA state due to the commercial airplanes being produced there. So post merger McDonald Douglas in 2001 they moved ~300 folks to CHI breaking ties with any production region. No favoritism kind of thing.

I actually sat in the bldg where HQ used to be in Seattle (Boeing field) when that happened. In the end moving 300 office execs/office staff to CHI was really not a big impact except to those who had to choose between SEA and CHI (Given the company has 170,000 employees).

It was basically a way to say that as a company they don't favor SEA over St Louis or So Cal etc (at that time in 2001).

The IAM machinists may never understand the strategy but I feel they have lost touch a bit on how good their pay and benefits are. The average machinist in SEA makes $80K with great medical, dental, 401K with a 75% match. The pension will accrue until 2016. Locations like south carolina will continue to grow and be happy to start at $14 an hour with a different benefit structure.

Securing this 777X is a good thing for the SEA region and the associated suppliers as well.

 

[haha]

The IAM machinists may never understand the strategy but I feel they have lost touch a bit on how good their pay and benefits are. The average machinist in SEA makes $80K with great medical, dental, 401K with a 75% match. The pension will accrue until 2016. Locations like south carolina will continue to grow and be happy to start at $14 an hour with a different benefit structure.

Securing this 777X is a good thing for the SEA region and the associated suppliers as well.

It's not for nothing that Boeing has always been called he big easy. No one could ever say that about Microsoft or Amazon.

A very close call. What I wonder were the older workers willing to throw the younger guys to the dogs, but I don't understand their pension structure so can't really say. There remains a very bright future for blue collar Puget Sound.

Ha

 

[explanade]

Now watch, Boeing will have record profits and then the next time a new contract comes up, the company will bend over the workers again.

 

[audreyh1]

I thought that was interesting that the main machinists union forced the Puget Sound chapter to have a vote on the deal.

 

[Spanky]

My guess is that they would vote "NO".

My guess is wrong! Preserving their jobs into the future seems to be a much bigger concern than making some concessions to pensions and health care benefits.

 

[Lcountz]

Now watch, Boeing will have record profits and then the next time a new contract comes up, the company will bend over the workers again.

Every single worker at Boeing was paid for their day's work....regardless of profits or losses by the corporation...

There was NEVER any guarantee that everyone in the company would be paid what the CEO is paid, or even close. That is not realistic, and not even relevant. In fact, I always was glad my Megacorp did well, and if the CEO was paid well to help make my retirement dreams possible, that was OK. DO you want a CEO to make 30,000 a year?!?!?!??

I think a better way to look at it is... a ten year contract, with great wages and a retirement program ( not necessarily a "pension") and a chance for everyone employed there to put in a day's work, get paid, and NOT buy every new thing that comes along.

They are fortunate-they have a finite contract, and if they begin TODAY to start to save like crazy for ten years, they will be posting here in 2025.

I read somewhere recently that young employees are beginning not to to even expect "pensions"...Maybe that term/time has passed.....

Anyone who thinks Boeing, or any other company, is "sticking it up thier A**" can always apply somewhere else.

 

[travelover]

...........
I read somewhere recently that young employees are beginning not to to even expect "pensions"...Maybe that term/time has passed................

That is real progress. Hopefully they eventually won't even expect to earn enough to pay for housing and healthcare on a single wage earner's salary.

 

[Blazerdude20]

As a younger worker I can attest to my generation not expecting a defined benefit retirement plan. When I was in high school we had to take a finance / adult life class ('07) and it was made clear to us that pensions would not be feasible in the future, so don't expect them. We were also warned to not count on social security or Medicare. I have taken those thoughts to heart in my retirement planning. As have many of peers.

Glad to see the yes vote. We have a small Boeing plant in Gresham (Oregon) and this also guarantees those jobs till 2024 which is good for the region.