Bonds Outpacing Stocks This Century

Sure, but for that to mean anything the advice would have to be move everything from stocks to bonds at retirement. Pretty poor advice.


These type of threads are interesting, but are nothing more than cherry picking a date in the past to make numbers look one way or the other. I could start the same thread with the dates being 2003-2020. Then a 100% bond portfolio doesn't look to good.



Ok but my heading specifically says that bonds have outperformed stocks for this century, so you are welcomed disprove that thesis, if you can. That’s a 20 year interval. No doubt, your choice to cherry pick some 17 year interval, or 36, or 52 or 9.875 would have different results and might prove your own preconceived notions.
 
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With low risk bonds (like treasuries) now paying something around 1% to 2%, I wonder how bonds will do over the next 20 years. There is not a lot of room to grow there.
 
+1

EDIT - oh and +1 for 40/60, 50/50, and 60/40 too, even when rates don't go in essentially a straight line from 6.66% to 0.63% (ten-year).



Yes! Another remarkable truism about balanced portfolios is that, long term, it doesn’t really matter which asset allocation you suggested, as long as you pick one, don’t fiddle with it and let it ride so that rebalancing and return to mean dynamics can play out over many years.

The following 3 portfolios covering this century to date also assume annual rebalancing and reinvestment of interest and dividends:

#1 = 60/40 allocation between domestic total stocks/bond index funds
#2 = 50/50
#3 = 40/60
And the green line is 100% S&P Index.

Check out the compound annual growth (CAGR) column. Is it worth to you all the gut-wrenching volatility drama that comes with a high stock allocation only to periodically end up in the same place as more balanced portfolios? Not to me.

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Which is the absolute fallacy of nearly all advice on the subject. The only thing that matters is **Save Your Money**. The rest is dessert, window dressing, just something to pass the time away....

I hear ya. It was the only advice the old man ever gave me. In the long term over 50 years it rings true.
 
With low risk bonds (like treasuries) now paying something around 1% to 2%, I wonder how bonds will do over the next 20 years. .

Not well.

Of course, equities may not do well either, but I'd take them before bonds.
 
Sure, but for that to mean anything the advice would have to be move everything from stocks to bonds at retirement. Pretty poor advice.


These type of threads are interesting, but are nothing more than cherry picking a date in the past to make numbers look one way or the other. I could start the same thread with the dates being 2003-2020. Then a 100% bond portfolio doesn't look to good.

It might be date cherry picking, but it absolutely does illustrate that bonds can outperform stocks for very long periods of time in case anyone doesn’t realize that. If you happen to retire near a market peak, you can be in for a long struggle depending on your AA.

And, since I retired in late 1999, that timeline is very real to me as I lived through it.
 
At this point, I would take stocks over bonds for future years' return.
 
I’ll continue to bet on a 50/50, globally-diversified, low cost, low maintenance portfolio with exposure to some 18,000 securities. When the global population and economy grow again someday, my portfolio will benefit. Best of luck to others with your own choices.
 
It might be date cherry picking, but it absolutely does illustrate that bonds can outperform stocks for very long periods of time in case anyone doesn’t realize that. If you happen to retire near a market peak, you can be in for a long struggle depending on your AA.

And, since I retired in late 1999, that timeline is very real to me as I lived through it.

Exactly. And everybody's life is a cherry picked time frame. But we don't get to pick it.
 
Do something more realistic, like start in 2000 with $10k and then contribute $10k per year (~$833 per month). Doing that and 100% equities are still up ~$150k over 100% bonds as of March 31. The 100% equities portfolio beats the 50/50 portfolio by ~$60k.



Here it is with your inputs including $833/month. You are right but 100% stocks would have endured a lot of drama and that investor wouldn’t have achieved any clear liftoff for over 13 years. Great for someone starting out in their career and saving/investing in 2000 though.

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Come back to this in 3-4 months. By that time, all those investment grade bonds will be re rated as junk and then your pain really starts.
 
I would not bet against you. To be sure, discussing this stuff is just a distraction during this genuine crisis for the world. As Dr. Fauci says, the good news is that this will burn out and be over with at some point.
 
Here is stocks vs bonds vs cash (corporate bonds range is limited to 2003 so that’s when this starts). First time using the portfolio analyzer site.

Stocks win if dollar cost averaging,
 

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I, too, can prove any bias you like, given the interval. Again, see the title of my post.
 
I’ll continue to bet on a 50/50, globally-diversified, low cost, low maintenance portfolio with exposure to some 18,000 securities. When the global population and economy grow again someday, my portfolio will benefit. Best of luck to others with your own choices.

+1
 
I think that chart is a cautionary tale that portends no good. Absent seriously irrational negative rates that bond movie is coming to an end. Either interests go up and the principle gets squashed or interest rate stay the same and the entire asset class has no real return.



Of course, if rates go up, that will likely trigger a real stock market rationalisation as well.


Agreed. I know that the religion around here is “set your allocation and leave it alone,” but I’ll argue that if you believe that basically all asset classes are overvalued and this is due to central bank manipulation of interest rates (artificially suppressing rates which makes all other asset classes “look” cheaper) then it’s perfectly ok to hold a large amount of cash, or gold, or whatever you think is a store of value and wait until asset prices are at a level you’d consider sustainable. In other words, I’d rather earn 0% for a while rather than bet big on assets classes that I still think are over valued. (Let the assaults begin as I’m called a dirty market timer and people school me on their personal buy and hold forever stories.)
 
Agreed. I know that the religion around here is “set your allocation and leave it alone,” but I’ll argue that if you believe that basically all asset classes are overvalued and this is due to central bank manipulation of interest rates (artificially suppressing rates which makes all other asset classes “look” cheaper) then it’s perfectly ok to hold a large amount of cash, or gold, or whatever you think is a store of value and wait until asset prices are at a level you’d consider sustainable. In other words, I’d rather earn 0% for a while rather than bet big on assets classes that I still think are over valued. (Let the assaults begin as I’m called a dirty market timer and people school me on their personal buy and hold forever stories.)

I won't call you out...I asked related question in another thread.

I don't think the right approach is move en masse out of both stocks & bonds. That is too much timing for me.

I think a more modest approach is to replace bonds with CDs. It ducks all of the principle risk for probably a small trade off on interest rates.

It does, however, mean that you're forgoing on-going rebalancing opportunities if we do plunge further into negative rate territory.

Full disclosure: I haven't actually done anything about these thoughts. Just thinking for now.
 
Dan Weiner did an analysis of exactly this data point in his newsletter last week. Bottom line:

And if we look at the 160 rolling 20-year periods since Total Bond Market Index’s inception, stocks beat bonds in 158 of them.
 
Dan Weiner did an analysis of exactly this data point in his newsletter last week. Bottom line:



I don’t doubt this. I also hope I haven’t called anyone a dirty market timer, just emphasized my own choices to not engage in it. A few points I’ve been trying to make on this string, which are biased by my investing and informal study for, gosh, 27 years now, include:

Growth and taking appropriate risk is important to keep ahead of inflation. I believe that’s best done on the equities side while bonds provide ballast.

Bond ballast is important, because every 8-10 years or so, equities keel over in a big way, like now, converting the ship into a submarine.

V-shaped stock recoveries are by no means assured. As the trend lines this century show, a periodic stock plunge can take many years to recover from, often not reaching the surface again until just in time for the next inevitable storm.

One can attempt to dodge the currents, dancing in and out of stocks or otherwise getting fancy. All the evidence is, this cannot be done successfully consistently and investors end up losing their butts over time. I choose to stack the odds toward reasonable growth and against losing my butt.

Doesn’t the evidence point to not trying to outsmart the markets? Isn’t the more assured way to investing success picking an asset allocation across low cost stock and bond funds, with a cash cushion large enough to allow sleep, and then sticking with it for twenty years+ so that all the various underlying asset class cycles and their inevitable reversions to mean can play out?

The evidence is, any blended, balanced portfolio somewhere between about 35/65 and 65/35 is not better than another. They each keep ending up at the same value periodically, as long as they aren’t fiddled with, which is hard to do in a storm like this and in stock bull markets. Isn’t a smoother ride more enjoyable than a rough one if all the routes get everyone to the same destinations at the same time?

Broad diversification is also appealing - TO ME. The international topic is heated. My own assumption is, populations are growing faster in some other countries than ours, those people will need stuff, the global economy will therefore grow and I think the best way to get a piece of it is to own my slice of the world’s economy. I re-counted the number of underlying securities that my portfolio is exposed to and it is some 28,000. I’m the kind of investor who finds strength and security in enormous diversification. I appreciate that Bogle and Buffett, et al thought/think differently.

Anyway, if I wrote my investing manifesto, it would include those points. It would also be boring, simple and entirely unoriginal. Finally, it would likely be successful, as that proven, replicable approach, along with working hard in my career and saving an above average percentage of it helped me achieve years ago my personal goal to become a millionaire, and then some. My 50/50 allocation is keeping me solidly well there through all this turmoil and I’m not concerned whether I should be DOING this or that dance right now. I’ve built my boat over many years and believe that my job and best choice is to just stay the course.

Best wishes for your own approaches.
 
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Sure, but for that to mean anything the advice would have to be move everything from stocks to bonds at retirement. Pretty poor advice.


These type of threads are interesting, but are nothing more than cherry picking a date in the past to make numbers look one way or the other. I could start the same thread with the dates being 2003-2020. Then a 100% bond portfolio doesn't look to good.

+1,000
 
Agreed. I know that the religion around here is “set your allocation and leave it alone,” but I’ll argue that if you believe that basically all asset classes are overvalued and this is due to central bank manipulation of interest rates (artificially suppressing rates which makes all other asset classes “look” cheaper) then it’s perfectly ok to hold a large amount of cash, or gold, or whatever you think is a store of value and wait until asset prices are at a level you’d consider sustainable. In other words, I’d rather earn 0% for a while rather than bet big on assets classes that I still think are over valued. (Let the assaults begin as I’m called a dirty market timer and people school me on their personal buy and hold forever stories.)

Agreed 100%.

Ignore the stone-throwers.
 
Agreed. I know that the religion around here is “set your allocation and leave it alone,” but I’ll argue that if you believe that basically all asset classes are overvalued and this is due to central bank manipulation of interest rates (artificially suppressing rates which makes all other asset classes “look” cheaper) then it’s perfectly ok to hold a large amount of cash, or gold, or whatever you think is a store of value and wait until asset prices are at a level you’d consider sustainable. In other words, I’d rather earn 0% for a while rather than bet big on assets classes that I still think are over valued. (Let the assaults begin as I’m called a dirty market timer and people school me on their personal buy and hold forever stories.)


You're not a dirty market timer. You just have it figured out.
 
Investors are enchanted by stocks’ unique ability to grow, grow, grow. Turns out, it’s equally important to not fall, fall, fall.

Portfolio 1 VBMFX = Vanguard Total Bond Index Fund
Portfolio 2 VFINX = Vanguard S&P 500

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Maybe the safest and best strategy for a long term, buy and hold investor is to set the allocation at 50/50 and leave it alone?

Actually, you got it wrong. If you had titled the thread Bonds Outpacing S&P 500 This Century then you had a valid argument.... but you titled the thread Bonds Outpacing Stocks this Century... and that is false.... stocks are ahead of bonds by 0.08% through March 31... and probably even more today.

Your chart.... but adding Vanguard Total Stock, which is more reflective of stocks in total, rather than the S&P 500 which is just large cap stocks. :D
 

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