Buying a Prius

[Nords]

ERD50 said this too, but I don't quite understand. My understanding is people regularly convert Prius to plug-in mode.

There's a ton of this discussion & information on PriusChat.com, and I've spent years of waiting while really wanting to believe.

Although there are several conversion businesses, in general they're expensive ($10K-$30K) or they're of low quality (rows of lead-acid batteries adding hundreds of pounds for a 40-mile range and an 18-month lifecycle). In other words, no matter how cheap the electricity gets or how expensive gas prices become, it's currently unlikely that the conversion will pay itself back over a decade. And if you look at a typical DIY conversion procedure, it'd scare off all but the most intrepid mechanics. Publicity aside, I'd estimate there are fewer than a thousand plug-ins on the road. Maybe even fewer than 500.

Toyota uses a proprietary controller on their hybrid battery. Although an army of geeks & nerds have reverse-engineered a lot of the Prius, the subtleties of the controller continue to elude a foolproof method of tricking it with a different battery (or a bigger hybrid battery). Toyota doesn't share and will viciously void the vehicle warranty of the plug-in conversions. Heck, Toyota is pretty vicious with all their Prius warranty issues, but most especially the battery/inverter. Lots of complaints on PriusChat from customers, dealers, & mechanics about how to deal with corporate.

So the plug-in result is more tinkering and scared customers. Far easier (and maybe cheaper) to just go buy some other electric plug-in vehicle. I'm not going to whip up a spreadsheet and go shopping for more PV panels until there's a plug-in conversion that doesn't need frequent replacement (or maintenance), has at least a 40-mile range (on our 20x30 island), and won't cause endless arguments with mechanics every time a fuse blows.

That means its
batteries can support power output sufficient to drive the car (unless
the conversion actually adds batteries ?)

Like another poster said, I don't think the battery has an excessive range. If the gas tank runs dry you're sternly admonished to drive no more than a mile or two before risking permanent damage. (The charge controller cycles the battery between ~40-80% and does not deep-cycle it.) Most owners will tank up when they're down to a quarter ("two bars" out of 10) on the gauge and will immediately find a gas station if for some reason they get down to one bar.

Foreign Priuses include an "EV" button that's intended to allow the car to be moved short distances without the gas engine kicking in-- for example around the driveway or from the repair garage to the parking lot. Toyota doesn't include an EV button on American models due to EPA & liability concerns, although of course you can install one for about $10 of parts, a soldering gun, and a few hours. It'd be perfect for our kid's one-mile school commute but again I'm not messing with Toyota's warranty.

Really, like what ?

Well, let's go with the items that I've personally had bad experiences with on other cars. For starters, I don't think our Prius has an accelerator cable. But I still need to check for that.

No manual or automatic clutch. The continuously-variable transmission is simply a series of ring/planetary gears (for the MG & ICE) around a common axis. The output is transferred by a geared chain to the front axle. The "shift lever" is a little 3" electronic dashboard paddle with an LCD status display. Our kid has no idea what "four on the floor" or "three on the tree" means, anymore than she understands how to "dial" a phone or "play a record". Now that she's developing a driver's hand-eye coordination and some muscle memory, we're going to teach her how to drive a manual transmission just in case she needs to impress her grandchildren with this ancient skill.

"Putting the car in Park" involves pushing a button on the dashboard. However there still appears to be a traditional cable connecting the emergency brake to the wheels, although I haven't verified that.

The HVAC system doesn't have a single dashboard control-- it's either on the touch screen or the steering wheel. You can open/shut/redirect the vents but there are no mixing levers or temperature rheostats or fan-speed knobs.

The sound system has two knobs for tuning & volume, but they're not necessary. The radio's frequently-operated controls are all on the steering wheel and the advanced settings are handled by the touch-screen display.

There's no ignition key to twist in the cylinder lock (and yes, I've had several break off in our high-mileage vehicles). We stick a fob in the dashboard and push a "Power" button. A smart-key-system fob can even stay in the driver's pocket.

The Prius cruise control doesn't move the accelerator. (I quickly learned not to leave my foot near our Taurus' accelerator-- especially under it-- when the cruise control was engaged.) As far as I can tell the cruise control is completely digital drive-by-wire, with no hunting or seeking typical of the analog controllers. When the road goes uphill the ICE immediately revs up and keeps the speed the same. The dashboard display maintains the same reading but this constant speed has also been independently verified by separate plug-in systems.

The radiator coolant is warranted for 100,000 (one hundred thousand) miles. No changes or flushes, especially because the system is a PITA to purge.

The stock CV boots are the heaviest & thickest I've ever felt outside of an aftermarket auto-parts store.

The oil filter has the best access I've experienced outside of a submarine diesel engine-- much easier than a Ford Taurus or Nissan Altima and even easier than a Honda Civic.

I fear that I'll never again need to know how to remove the manual handcrank on a window. It appears that the motors & cables are reliable enough to mostly last for the life of the car.

The car has a number of design quirks & flaws but the maintenance has been extremely well thought out. I guess I'm finally ready to part with my tuning/timing light and my tachometer...

 

[samclem]

Nords,
Since we are talking specifics--the IC engine will be started much more frequently on this car than in a normal car. Is there anything special to reduce the wear on rings/top end during starts, or is regular engine oil "clingy" enough to keep a film on the metal and keep wear at a minimum during those first critical seconds?

 

[Westernskies]

We need a seperate thread on Hummers...........

Hmmmmmmm......

 

[Nords]

Nords,
Since we are talking specifics--the IC engine will be started much more frequently on this car than in a normal car. Is there anything special to reduce the wear on rings/top end during starts, or is regular engine oil "clingy" enough to keep a film on the metal and keep wear at a minimum during those first critical seconds?

Good question[-], but I haven't looked at the technical details enough to know the answer[/-], and I had to research the answer.

The ICE may not be spinning when the car is rolling, but the drive train will still be moving. [-]I don't know if that's lubricated separately or if the oil pump is still running off some other part of the hybrid drive.[/-] The drive train is lubricated by a separate oil pump. The car also occasionally spins the engine (without injecting gas or firing the cylinders) to put a drag on the MG's overspeeding RPMs or to slow the car without overheating the brakes on steep prolonged downhill runs-- the equivalent of gearing down a conventional transmission. The noise/vibration of the spinning engine is just barely detectable over the road noise, and you have to be expecting it to notice it.

In that same way, when the ICE needs to be running (not just rotating) then a small electric motor draws on the hybrid battery to get the ICE spinning at about 1000 RPMs with the ICE's attached oil pump pre-lubing its components. Once the ICE is up to that RPM then the ECU injects gas and sparks the cylinders. The theory, borne out by testing & experience, is that the worst engine wear occurs when the cylinders fire from low RPMs. So by raising the RPMs before adding gas & spark, the engine wear is minimized. The whole process occurs within microseconds and is nearly unnoticeable because the ICE is already spinning before it fires up a kick. No hesitation, no surge. It's pretty cool for the first few weeks of ownership but now I hardly even notice.

When you pull away from a stoplight, you can usually feather the accelerator to start out on battery and eventually kick in the engine. But since the battery is normally charged by the engine, accelerating on battery only pays off if you're making the entire trip downhill to recharge the battery by brake regeneration. So the more fuel-efficient practice is to accelerate briskly away from a stop, which quickly starts up the engine at its most efficient RPM instead of "wasting" battery charge. Kinda non-intuitive but it shows up in the MPG numbers.

When I was reading PriusChat.com daily for a couple months, with several hundred posts a day, I didn't see a single complaint about cylinder/ring wear or oil sludge or other lubrication problems. The cars have been sold since '97 in Japan, '01 in America, and there are several models in excess of 200K miles. [-]So the only issue here may be my lack of knowledge, rendered irrelevant by some Toyota engineer's design foresight.[/-]

A few seconds after the car is first powered up, the ICE automatically starts up to warm up the oil and the catalytic converter. It runs for about 45-60 seconds (when temps come up to spec) and from then on only runs when needed. One reason for this startup run is to get the catalytic converter operating at specs to satisfy the EPA. That's bureaucratic rather than an engineering practice and not necessarily programmed into non-American models. When the car is powered off after parking, a small aux coolant pump actually moves radiator coolant into a small thermos bottle to keep it hot for an hour or two, allowing the car to conserve the BTUs. When the car's restarted after a short park, the catalytic converter and the coolant may be hot enough that the ECU won't start up the ICE. So the car's MPG really shines when running errands with lots of short trips & short parks.

As if this isn't good enough, some drivers have installed electric engine-block heaters that they turn on 30-40 minutes before they start the car. Then when they power up the car, the engine & coolant are usually warm enough that the ICE doesn't kick in. And of course a PriusChat hardcore driver has calculated the cost of the engine-block heater and its electricity to determine the payback, concluding that it's worth the expense. Other diehards install ScanGuage realtime engine-performance monitors and actually block off their radiator grille vents to safely boost coolant/engine temps and maximize MPG. One poster was over the top with joy when he ran through 10 gallons of gas at an average of over 70 MPG. Of course he posted JPEGs of his touchscreen display to document his feat.

You can see why this car attracts nukes like moths to a flame...

 

[ls99]

We need a seperate thread on Hummers...........

Hmmmmmmmm................

 

[FinanceDude]

Hmmmmmmmm................

I'll start one........

 

[RustyShackleford]

This is all very interesting - thanks, Nords.

 

[samclem]

Good question, . . . and I had to research the answer.

Thanks very much for the explanation. Dang! They really have thought of nearly everything. Observations:
1) The oversimplified powertrain schematic of "how the Prius works" barely scratches the surface of all the sub-systems that had to be engineered from scratch.
2) The fact that all the "if-->then" stuff happens without driver input is amazing testimony to the capability of affordable, consumer-level sensors, microprocessors, and electromechanical actuators.
3) The fact that these cars aren't maintenance nightmares despite the level of complexity speaks volumes about Toyota.

 

[travelover]

Thanks very much for the explanation. Dang! They really have thought of nearly everything. Observations:
1) The oversimplified powertrain schematic of "how the Prius works" barely scratches the surface of all the sub-systems that had to be engineered from scratch.
2) The fact that all the "if-->then" stuff happens without driver input is amazing testimony to the capability of affordable, consumer-level sensors, microprocessors, and electromechanical actuators.
3) The fact that these cars aren't maintenance nightmares despite the level of complexity speaks volumes about Toyota.

I'd also mention that the Ford Escape Hybrids in taxi service in NYC and SF have gone over 175,000 miles with very few problems. And no, they do not use Toyota's parts or design, though they are similar and share some suppliers.

http://www.hybridcars.com/fleets/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability-25167.html[url]http://www.hybridcars.com/fleets/taxis-show-hybrid-battery-durability-25167.html[/URL]

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/04/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-demonstrate-durability-on-new-york-stre/[url]http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/04/ford-escape-hybrid-taxis-demonstrate-durability-on-new-york-stre/[/URL]

 

[harley]

Confession time! (unfortunately you don't seem to have a :blushing: smiley available here)

It's in the "more" list in the smileys.

 

[kyounge1956]

Confession time! (unfortunately you don't seem to have a :blushing: smiley available here) (snip)

It's in the "more" list in the smileys.

I saw that one but didn't recognize it. The face color looked like "Mr-Yuk" to me, so I thought it was an "I think I'm gonna hurl" smiley. Now that I look at them more closely, most of the smileys have that color face. Odd.

 

[Frugality_of_Apathy]

If I was looking to blow $22,000 on transportation I'd sooner buy 5 $4000 cars that get 20 miles/gallon and have 2 years worth of gas money before even hitting break even with the Prius. Plus there's the fact that if you had some mechanical trouble or someone crashes into your car you can always just leave it burning on the side of the road and hop in one of the other cars. When the crazy vandalism occurs totalling your car you can collect the insurance money and get back 100% of the value of your cars.

 

[Andy R]

So I went to the Toyota dealership to look at a used Prius. I negotiated on a 2008 with 16k miles. He took me from the Used Sales office to the main building/offices to pay and complete the transaction. I sat there for nearly 1 hour before I got frustrated and got up to find out what was going on. One of the guys said "you are Andy? I have your stuff on my desk". I asked him why he did not get me earlier and he said "I did not know you were out there". Bad customer service so I was frustrated.

Next the "business manager" goes into trying to sell me the extended warranty and I told him "you can skip this, I am not buying the warranty". I told him I was frustrated from sitting out there and told him if he did not skip the whole extended warranty BS I would get up and leave. He said he "HAD" to do the warranty stuff and then started to justify the cost when it would only add $40/month to the payment. I got up and walked out.

When a client is clear and polite and says no, why can't they just move on. It's been 11 years since I bought my Jeep and I hope after I get this next car and wait 10 more years I can just shop online and push the next button when that option is presented!

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

The salesman sounds like a jerk, a drone.

That said, it's a great car. Hope you find one at a more reasonable dealership. I'm getting about 60 mpg on my mixed city-highway communt. Flawless vehicle since 2006.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Yeah. We bought a car this summer. The guy who finally sold us a car was a decent guy. The other ones made me never want to buy a car again. I shouldn't be angry when I want to purchase a car

 

[73ss454]

Andy, I spent 27 out of the 35 years I spent in the car business as a business manager. That said you have to understand that business managers don't get a salary so if they don't sell you anything they get to do about an hours worth of paper work for nothing.

I know, not your problem but it is the business managers problem and he's gotta do what he's gotta do to try to make a living.

Also the manufacturer sends a customer satisfaction survey out and one of the questions asks if you had the opportunity to purchase the extended warranty.

You couldn't imagine how many people say they don't want to purchase the warranty or anything else and end up buying a bunch of stuff.

So yeah, they lost your sale but no biggie. It's a Prius and it won't be there long and the next guy may buy a warranty.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Interesting. I would think in this market not making a sale might sting. Goes to show I dont know the inner workings of the automobile sales industry

 

[Andy R]

73ss454, Thanks for the info about Business Managers. I bet a lot of people do buy that stuff. Unfortunately I don't drink that Kool-Aid so it's a frustrating step in the process.

Do you happen to know much about buying a car a day or two before New Years? I have heard dealers here in Dallas, Tx have to pay property tax if the car is on their lot January 1st and they are willing to negotiate good deals at that time. Is this true?

I loved the Prius (this was my first time driving one). It seemed like I was actually in a modern car of the future. I have been wanting one for years based on what I had read so it was nice to get the same feeling when checking it out in real life.

 

[73ss454]

Well, the last day of the month is the only day to buy a car in my opinion. The last day of the year is even better. All commissions to the employees are paid on a monthly basis and the managers want to get every deal they can in for the end of the month or year.

Now, I think buying a prius is a different story. This is a car in high demand and the dealer is not going to get stuck with the vehicle. The best thing to do with a car like this is find a dealer that has a bunch in stock, if there is such a thing and buy it there.

I would think on the last day of the year if you were in the market for an American car that would be the day.

 

[73ss454]

Andy, try to buy the car on line and make sure after you cut the deal with the internet manager you tell him/her you don't want to deal with anyone else. They may offer you the warranty themselves without the business manager.

By the way, an extended warrany from the manufacturer only is not a bad thing but you can also shop them.

I would think if a prius breaks after the 3 year period or 36K the bill would be something you wouldn't want to see. Some people like the piece of mind of the warranty.

Many dealers sell ins. company warranties or in house warranties. You don't want one of them.

 

[Andy R]

Thanks for the info 73ss454. I know what I will be doing on December 31st.

FYI - Not even Prius sales are holding up at the moment. "November Prius sales dropped 48.3% to 8,660 vehicles from 16,737 last year" (link). Gas is now under $1.50 here in Dallas so demand for the Prius is weaker at the moment IMO.

With your past experience do you think that buying the newest model possible (a 2009) or should I try to get a deal on a 2008 on New Years Eve? Obviously I'd like the newer one but maybe the commissions are higher on the newer units or does it matter?

How do I determine the stock that a dealer would have? Are there any sites that might help me size up their inventory so I can be more informed?

 

[kyounge1956]

So I went to the Toyota dealership to look at a used Prius. I negotiated on a 2008 with 16k miles.

Yikes. Mine is 2-1/2 years old and only has about 12 or 13K miles.

(snip) When a client is clear and polite and says no, why can't they just move on.

And why can't real estate guys believe it when you tell them how much money you have available to buy a house? When I was shopping for my first house I had a set amount I was able to pay. I happened by a condo that was opening up and told the guy there the figure. He dragged me all over the place for an hour and finally revealed that the least expensive unit in the building was $5K above my top price. I felt like asking him which he thought I was, so stupid I forgot the right number, or just lying? Been more than twenty years and I'm still ticked off at that guy!

It's been 11 years since I bought my Jeep and I hope after I get this next car and wait 10 more years I can just shop online and push the next button when that option is presented!

I bought mine through a car broker. Maybe I didn't get it for the absolute minimum I could have paid, but they didn't try to sell me a bunch of stuff I didn't want or need and they didn't keep me sitting around the office for ages when I went to pick up the car. I did have to wait several months for the car to be delivered, but mine was new—I could have bought a used one and driven it away when I went to a local dealer for a test drive, but that one had a bunch of options on it that I didn't want and would have cost more than my new one did. I've never "negotiated" with a car dealer. My first car was from a sale of lightly used rental cars through my mom's credit union (she's a retired schoolteacher), and if there was any negotiation I'm sure my dad did it, I was just out of college and greener than grass. The Prius is only my second car, and buying it through a broker was so painless I'll probably go that way again when I need to replace it. If I did pay a couple hundred bucks more, it's worth it to me not to have to put up with the garbage you have to go through at a dealership!

 

[73ss454]

Andy, you can usually check the dealers inventory on line to see what they have in stock.

I would think if the 2008 and the 2009 have the same look and mechanicals that the 2008 would be the better buy. But the price has to be a few grand better than the 2009. If you're keeping the car for the long term 8 years from now it won't make any diff. what year the car is. It's mostly condition at that point.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the lower gas costs holding back prius sales. Well, that's a good thing for you at this point.

Just remember that keeping a car like this long term can be expensive. The battery pack will have to be replaced at some point and they are very expensive, at least at this point.

If it were me and I was buying an electric I would look at pricing the manufacturers warranty and get as long term as you can. Then maybe 6 years or so from now with the warranty still in place selling the car out of your driveway won't be a problem. No one will be affraid of the car at that point if Toyota is backing it up.

If I was buying a camry or a corolla and it was gas I'd keep the car at least 10 years because of past performance. But with the new techonology in the prius we don't know what to expect 6 or 7 years from now. Repairs on an electric car should be very expensive I would imagine.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I read that too about the Prius sales being down 48 percent--seems like you should be able to get a great deal, Andy.

And I agree that the length of time it takes to close the car buying deal is ridiculous and should be completely unnecessary. The last time we suffered through it, we sat in the little waiting office and ripped the dealership, hoping there were little microphones in there (I always heard that the sales staff listen in on the customers when they put them in those little rooms).

I don't understand why the business manager doesn't receive a salary. Do they have no function other than selling add-ons?

 

[ziggy29]

I would think that the combination of a crappy economy and temporarily cheap gas would make this as good a time to get a good deal on a Prius as any time...