Cashless travel

[audreyh1]

Kroger seems to be very secretive regarding Apple Pay. From what I have heard it is being rolled out very slowly, region by region and sometimes store by store. My local Fred Meyer still does not use Apple Pay as far as I can see. But, I will look harder at the electronic gizmo that handles payment the next time I am in the store. Perhaps, they have stealthily introduced Apple Pay but are too stubborn to admit it.

My area still needs an Aldi and/or a Lidl to increase competition.

It’s interesting. Walmart tried this long ago when Apple Pay first came out. They formed a consortium and tried to develop an alternative. It never got off the ground, but what Walmart really wanted was a bank debit system to avoid the credit card fees. Didn’t work but it really slowed down the acceptance of Apple Pay. The consortium fell apart AFAIK as after many delays member after member started supporting Apply Pay. As far as I know the only contactless payment Walmart accepts is through their app = Walmart Pay which involves scanning a QR code on the checkout screen, and you have to already linked payment methods to your Walmart app.

 

[Philliefan33]

It’s interesting. Walmart tried this long ago when Apple Pay first came out. They formed a consortium and tried to develop an alternative. It never got off the ground, but what Walmart really wanted was a bank debit system to avoid the credit card fees. Didn’t work but it really slowed down the acceptance of Apple Pay. The consortium fell apart AFAIK as after many delays member after member started supporting Apply Pay. As far as I know the only contactless payment Walmart accepts is through their app = Walmart Pay which involves scanning a QR code on the checkout screen, and you have to already linked payment methods to your Walmart app.

That’s the case at my local Walmart. I’m in the habit of leaving my wallet in the car when I shop and using my Apple Watch to checkout / charge the purchase to my Visa card. But I have to remember to take my physical credit card with me into Walmart, and that’s a little annoying. [emoji34]

 

[tulak]

During the pandemic, I gave up using a wallet and only carried a driver’s license and two credit cards. It made it easier to disinfect when I got home.

I haven’t gone back to using a wallet and most of the time, thanks to Apple Pay, I don’t even need to pull out the credit card.

It’ll be nice when I can stop carrying cards and have everything on my phone/watch.

 

[audreyh1]

That’s the case at my local Walmart. I’m in the habit of leaving my wallet in the car when I shop and using my Apple Watch to checkout / charge the purchase to my Visa card. But I have to remember to take my physical credit card with me into Walmart, and that’s a little annoying. [emoji34]

If you carry your phone you always can set up the Walmart app to pay by phone instead.

 

[Koolau]

I can't give up my wallet. Half the stuff in there, I no longer use. But they'll know who I am if I ever drop dead on the street. Just pull out the wallet.

 

[explanade]

I can't give up my wallet. Half the stuff in there, I no longer use. But they'll know who I am if I ever drop dead on the street. Just pull out the wallet.

I have a wallet case for my iPhone with little pockets for credit cards, drivers license, some cash.

But I don't put those in their because they make the wallet case thicker and heavier and I don't want to risk losing them.

So I did a printout of a photo of license. I don't use it as ID but if I'm unconscious or worse, they could find it.

However, I don't even use that wallet case any more.

When I travel, I use a fanny pack and load it with my wallet as well as my iPhone.

 

[imnontrad]

Good to know. I am heading to the UK in a few weeks but thinking of attending an event in Lithuania. I was dreading having to exchange for British pounds and then Euro for my stay. But still taking my debit/ATM card with me just in case.

 

[Accidental Retiree]

Used Apple Pay for the first time at our local Fred Meyer today.

I received a 10% cash back offer on my Apple Card for using Apple Pay: up to $100 back at Ace, Panera, and a few other vendors; and up to another $100 at all other places accepting Apple Pay.

I finally gave it a try at our local Ralph’s (Kroger), the Ralph’s fuel station, and a few other places and have received nearly $60 so far for trying it out.

Our local Lowe’s does not use Apple Pay.

 

[tenant13]

This is not something that would ever concern me! I mean, why would the government want to close my accounts? I gladly pay my taxes and generally comply with the law as every citizen should.

I'm curious why you think the government has any interest in having you or anyone else starve to death.

I'm originally from Poland. In July 2022 the government passed the law that allows their IRS closing the accounts of people who are under investigation for tax fraud. The kicker here is that IRS has the ability to look at everyone's accounts without informing the accounts owners. No warrants necessary.

So here's one of the cases. A woman and her non-Polish boyfriend were renting an apartment from an individual. Boyfriend's foreign employer was including accommodation allowance in his compensation so every month he was depositing it in his GF's Polish bank account and that's where the rent payments were coming from. It was easier than opening a bank account that he didn't need.

In Poland you just use bank apps for everything and transfers between banks are free and almost instant. A bit like Venmo - just direct. So transactions between individuals don't involve credit cards or checks.

One month Netflix couldn't pull their payment out (it's unclear why) and complained to the IRS which in turn looked into the woman's account. They did not like the deposits coming from abroad and decided to shut down the account for the investigation. The details and the length of the investigation are kept secret until it's resolved.

Those are the details as presented by a fairly one sided article in Polish press. For all I know, the woman might have broken some financial laws and the IRS was not in the wrong here. But that's not the point. What's interesting is the law itself. Poland is part of EU so you would think they could enjoy more privacy than China but nope...

And if you think that it will never happen in US, you only need to read about FATCA. Yes - it's all about obeying the law and catching bad guys who avoid taxes but laws can change at a whim of a ruling party and things that were perfectly fine one day are illegal the next.

An interesting trivia about countries turning authoritarian is here: https://www.businessinsider.com/macron-france-social-media-phone-gps-camera-curb-protests-2023-7 It's an example of what can happen if governments decide that a particular behavior or activity is not to their liking. We only get outraged about these things when it's about Hong Kong or Russia.

 

[tenant13]

Rich countries are one thing. Not-rich countries, especially in rural areas, are another....

Since March 2020, we've visited (among other destinations), the following not-rich countries/areas, where you'd better have an ATM card to get cash, especially if you plan to eat at small restaurants that don't cater to tourists: East-central Portugal, Honduras, Jordan, Egypt, Colombia, Argentina (patagonia), Chile (patagonia), Indonesia, and Malaysia.

These countries/areas, however, no need for cash: Singapore, Iceland, Spain, Gibraltar, Falklands, South Georgia (I think?), both Irelands, and Scotland.

A few areas/countries that we weren't in long enough to really say (Uruguay, Qatar, Turkey), or where the question is irrelevant (Antarctica).

Our bottom line is that it is always good to have an ATM card that will work, just in case.

How did you do in Argentina? I'd like to go back but their 100% inflation, government imposed exchange rates and black market exchanges stop me.

 

[Music Lover]

Say you protest the "wrong" thing and the government uses the power of bank account access against you?

Not that such a thing would ever happen in a free countries. Cough, Canada, cough.

People that cheer for a cashless society rarely consider the downsides. Even if you're doing nothing wrong, who's to say that it won't be considered wrong by the next people in charge?

Going completely cashless is being sold as "convenience", but you can already go cashless for almost everything anytime you want if you find it convenient.

Removing physical cash benefits someone but it's not the average person.

 

[SecondAttempt]

One month Netflix couldn't pull their payment out (it's unclear why) and complained to the IRS which in turn looked into the woman's account.

This is where the story loses credibility. Netflix would simply not "complain to the IRS." It is utter nonsense.

 

[tenant13]

This is where the story loses credibility. Netflix would simply not "complain to the IRS." It is utter nonsense.

Yes, I noticed that bit myself but one: this is Poland and they have a lot of very strange regulations that none of us has ever heard of. Secondly - it's not the story that matters but the law that makes accounts closures as easy as some office clerk clicking a button. No due process necessary.

But then if you know anything about civil forfeitures in US, or a recent Canadian action taken against striking truckers, or Argentinian bans on access to foreign currencies or anything that Russia does to its citizen money - you should not be shocked. Governments access to and control of financial institutions has always been an effective weapon. Most people fully accept the idea of sanctions - this is the same thing except on micro scale.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Yes, I noticed that bit myself but one: this is Poland and they have a lot of very strange regulations that none of us has ever heard of. Secondly - it's not the story that matters but the law that makes accounts closures as easy as some office clerk clicking a button. No due process necessary.

But then if you know anything about civil forfeitures in US, or a recent Canadian action taken against striking truckers, or Argentinian bans on access to foreign currencies or anything that Russia does to its citizen money - you should not be shocked. Governments access to and control of financial institutions has always been an effective weapon. Most people fully accept the idea of sanctions - this is the same thing except on micro scale.

I'm not worried about that kind of thing happening in the US, or even Canada. The striking truckers were an embarrassment to most normal Canadians. They sought to disrupt the country using economic warfare. The Canadian government fought back using economic warfare. Argentina is in a desperate situation economically. And Russia? Seriously? We might not be perfect in the US but we have far greater protections than most places.

But I am not advocating for doing away with cash. I was simply noting my recent travel experiences and how convenient being cashless was.

 

[JoeWras]

I'm not worried about that kind of thing happening in the US, or even Canada. The striking truckers were an embarrassment to most normal Canadians. They sought to disrupt the country using economic warfare. The Canadian government fought back using economic warfare.

I will respectfully disagree with you on this.

 

[SecondAttempt]

The only exception is occasionally Costco. If our bill is over $300 we have to insert the card and use our PIN.

Can you share your secret for getting out of Costco for less than $300?

 

[Buckeye]

We left Sweden today after almost 2 weeks. We did not spend a single ore or krona in the form of cash, bills or coins. It is almost a completely cashless economy. So far it seems like Denmark is pretty similar.

The only hickup they have to work out is that at local markets and for very small payments they use a system called Swish but you must have a Swedish bank account to use it so tourists are cut out. I think it is like venmo.

I found the whole cashless thing incredibly convenient. I know there are people who have political objections to that kind of thing but I truly believe that is the way we are headed because it is so unbelievably efficient and convenient.

Understand that there is no law, as far as I know, banning cash or even encouraging cashless transactions. It's just so convenient for everyone once the technology is available that it quickly becomes the preferred choice.

We spent 11 days in Paris last fall and only used electronic payments. Last trip 35 years ago was much different. Do travelers checks still exist?

 

[audreyh1]

We spent 11 days in Paris last fall and only used electronic payments. Last trip 35 years ago was much different. Do travelers checks still exist?

No, no one accepts travelers checks anymore. They didn’t 10 years ago either.

 

[Koolau]

Yes, I noticed that bit myself but one: this is Poland and they have a lot of very strange regulations that none of us has ever heard of. Secondly - it's not the story that matters but the law that makes accounts closures as easy as some office clerk clicking a button. No due process necessary.

But then if you know anything about civil forfeitures in US, or a recent Canadian action taken against striking truckers, or Argentinian bans on access to foreign currencies or anything that Russia does to its citizen money - you should not be shocked. Governments access to and control of financial institutions has always been an effective weapon. Most people fully accept the idea of sanctions - this is the same thing except on micro scale.

Then again, a gummint only has to accuse you of something, causing you to lawyer up. At $400/hour, your un-frozen accounts will be empty in no time. (Can you say "go fund me.")

 

[Music Lover]

I'm not worried about that kind of thing happening in the US, or even Canada.

It's already happening in both countries.

But even if you're not worried, why would you deliberately choose to have less control of your money?

 

[Koolau]

It's already happening in both countries.

But even if you're not worried, why would you deliberately choose to have less control of your money?

And keep in mind that a "well behaved and tame" tiger will still bite someone eventually because that's their nature. A gummint will take to themselves all the power that people will give them. They will use any tool (weapon) to guard that power as long as no one complains too loudly. Don't think of it as "evil." It's JUST the nature of the beast. Guarding against such power is much less effective AFTER the power is attained. Controlling your money is almost the most effective tool a gummint could wield if it choses to. YMMV

 

[2017ish]

How did you do in Argentina? I'd like to go back but their 100% inflation, government imposed exchange rates and black market exchanges stop me.

We did fine there. Used the informal exchanges and Western Union transfers to ourselves to get nearly double the bank rate on our USD bills. Even better, although it only kicked in at the end of our trip (December 2022), the government instituted yet another official exchange rate for US based credit cards, which very closely tracked the "blue dollar." If that is still the case, the rationale for carrying cash to use in major cities has been alleviated. (It felt strange to pay with cash at Don Julio--but it basically saved us close to $300 on the meal!)

Parts of Patagonia, otoh, will still necessitate cash, I think--albeit because of reasons other than exchange rate.

 

[2017ish]

How did you do in Argentina? I'd like to go back but their 100% inflation, government imposed exchange rates and black market exchanges stop me.

We did fine there. Used the informal exchanges and Western Union transfers to ourselves to get nearly double the bank rate on our USD bills. Even better, although it only kicked in at the end of our trip (December 2022), the government instituted yet another official exchange rate for US based credit cards, which very closely tracked the "blue dollar." If that is still the case, the rationale for carrying cash to use in major cities has been alleviated. (It felt strange to pay with cash at Don Julio--but it basically saved us close to $300 on the meal!)

Parts of Patagonia, otoh, will still necessitate cash, I think--albeit because of reasons other than exchange rate.

 

[SecondAttempt]

But even if you're not worried, why would you deliberately choose to have less control of your money?

I posted about the convenience of not using cash while on vacation and to let other travelers know what to expect in northern Europe. I don't think every conversation needs to become political. I personally see many downsides (as well as upsides) to eliminating cash completely but have not mentioned them because they are irrelevent to the discussion about what is actually happening in Europe. Cash transactions are becoming unusual.

 

[braumeister]

My recent trip was an eye opener for me. A bunch of different countries and five different currencies (none of them in the Euro zone).

It was interesting to see that, as others have mentioned, cash is rapidly becoming unnecessary in most places. I paid for just about everything by simply touching my watch to the machine, even in places I would have considered unlikely (tiny towns in remote areas of small countries).

There was one place where I had to insert a credit card even though it was contactless, but otherwise tap to pay was the norm.