CFL Lightbulbs, LEDs, Incandescents

...And it looks like Laurence has a stalker! :LOL:

I always like it when someone tries to project their values onto someone else.
 
Shawn............please, get a life..........and I mean that in the nicest way possible............. ;)
 
Lunge, parry, riposte, parry.... Okay, we could use some realistic leadership in government in the energy policy arena, and we all should take a good, honest look at our own behavior when we're looking for solutions (or just trying to identify the problem). Good points. Next... ;)
 
Hmmm, well I thought about how to answer that post of yours there, but I just got out of a 3 hour meeting so my mind is a little jello-ish. I was going to go through it point by point ( my house is 3 bedrooms and 1700 sq. feet, the volvo gets driven on weekends as well, parents live 100 miles away visit them sometimes cuz I'm a nice son etc. ) and I got really tired thinking about it. Let's just stick with the $300 a month for two people in a month for gas. San Diego has some of the highest prices for gas in the nation, despite recent drop downs, we are still right around $2.50. So we would have to consume 120 gallons of gas in 30 days, so about 3 gallons a day, that means if I burn one DW is burning two. My car is a Volvo, yes, and it does o.k. on gas, but DW drives an SUV (gasp) that gets only 20. We live in north county, and she has to drive to various locations for Tori's therapy. Monday is physical therapy, tuesday is OP, Wednesday is therapy via horseback riding (strengthens core muscles of the trunk so hopefully she can walk soon) - that's in fallbrook, and it's a 20 mile drive each way. Children's hospital is over 30 miles each way, and Tori has to go there several times a month. Could I get a car with better gas mileage? Sure. But while you say an environmentally oriented person would "rush right out" and get a hybrid, I don't think that takes into account the added polution the junking of a perfectly good car ( 5 years old ) to buy another. With most cars filled with plastics - petrolium products - and the environmental impact of all the lead and potentially toxic chemicals in every vehicle, it really doesn't make sense to junk a car before it's run into the ground, even if I could improve gas mileage dramatically.

I did trace the path for biking at one point, but the freeway I need to take to work passes over a lake and there are no alternate routes. While they have made taking a bike legal for that one exit that the freeway is over the lake, the path is extremely hazardous and difficult ( the directions include "get off bike and lift over the fence....").

Personal virtue is great, good for you that you consume less energy than 99% of americans. But if the infrastructure is not there to support the virtuous activity, most people aren't going to adopt it. So Cal is a great example of that, no mass transit, sprawling suburbs, etc. It takes both, it's not an either or.

I'm answering your post seriously because you are new here and it's important to give the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately I was going to say more but I just got paged into another meeting. Yikes.
 
I can't believe I'm follow on posting, but leftover thoughts:

Everything in the house is recycled, the proceeds are used for fun stuff and lotto tickets. We use freecycle and craigslist and have bought very few new things for Tori or our coming baby. We usually have one kitchen trash bag worth of trash a week, max. We even go days without meat, so that brings down our environmental impact since it takes mucho resources to produce meat vs. bread/dairy/veggie.

But I like steak, I like wine/beer, and on weekends I definitely indulge. I am flawed.

How in the world would you get your gas and electric below 15 bucks? I think my base charges for hook up etc. and taxes are more than that. Why do you have nearly two thousand square feet for just you and your cats?

Every American consumes 100 times or more than those in third world countries. I guess we could go to extreme one-upmanship, but let's talk about diminishing returns. Wouldn't closing the exemption loopholes that make a Hummer H2 a "work vehicle" thus tax breaks produce a larger return that you going from 2 bulbs and one space heater in your house to a flashlight and a sweater?

Dude, did you really read my last 500 posts? That's kind of weird, and probably a terrible waste of your time, since I'll be the first to admit I don't contribute much to this board the way brewer, th, wab, nords, martha, and others do. I come here to commiserate with cyber-friends and get my group support on continuing to LBYM, plugging into index funds, and tune out the commercialism of society. I'm the kind of guy who pretty much gets along with everybody I work with and live near.

There is a saying, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.". My SUV is a Jeep, not a Suburban. My house is the smallest in my neighborhood. I have torn out the water-sucking plants on my hill and begun developing a zero-scape for most of my property. This and other things I have detailed on this board make targeting me for your comment make little sense. Free country, mind you, you can have a beef with me if you want, but there are better targets in the world...

Anyhow, I'm not one who enjoys creating enmity, so I'll just conclude by saying feel free to confront/dispute me on anything, just put your comment plainly and in context. Your first post was formatted in "high troll-bait" language....
 
This is a peculiar issue ... really, not about left and right ... would be nice if it was about the truth. But truth died long ago in this debate.


I strongly agree with the comment above about China ... gee ... do you think emerging markets love the spin this puts on their competition ... the developed markets? And, the idea the U.S. is the #1 polluter in the world? More BS. Do a little research, for heaven's sake.


I'll wager that in a few years, the pendulum swings back, and we learn that ... shock of shocks ... much of this drivel was driven by special interests, on both sides.

And, if you think the "consensus" of scientists are driven by pure motives, you haven't seen environmentalism naked ... much of it is more about hatred of consumerism, free enterprise, and sometimes even the U.S. I've been in the middle of these policy debates, in the Bay area, DC, etc. ... real fruitcakes, Stalinists, "small is beautiful" with brains to match folks. Pitiful.


And I founded an environmental group that won national and local awards, recycle regularly, fought nuclear power, and use solar energy, CFB's, etc. ... many environmentalists are great, sincere folks. Some are not ... I just don't like BS science and the lemming mentality.


Someday, perhaps, we'll get to an honest discussion of this topic, and real problems ... not this current "Michael Moore" brand of "science".
 
Charles said:
And, if you think the "consensus" of scientists are driven by pure motives, you haven't seen environmentalism naked ... much of it is more about hatred of consumerism, free enterprise, and sometimes even the U.S. I've been in the middle of these policy debates, in the Bay area, DC, etc. ... real fruitcakes, Stalinists, "small is beautiful" with brains to match folks. Pitiful.
Click to expand...

::)

Is mentioning Stalinism in a thread the same as mentioning Hitler?
 
This thread just convinced me to start trying harder to conserve energy. I just turned the brightness down on my monitor. :)
 
Ha! I usually don't mention the CFB's, but the Valentine's Day champagne ... :LOL:


eridanus, if you ever have a discussion with a true "Stalinist" (who proudly referred to themselves in that manner, in my conversations), you will understand ... you'll hear how evil you are if you have fewer than 2 or 3 people per bedroom, the state should allocate housing, etc. Those conversations were quite illuminating ... though not as bright as CFB's ... :LOL:


I also met Russell Means and Amory Lovins back then ... those were interesting days ... environmentalism is a wonderful and proper philosophy. But it will benefit most from intellectual honesty, and facts instead of coercion and lemming behavior. Will be fascinating to see where the true, honest science really ends up on global warming.


BTW, regarding the U.S. being the #1 polluter ... The Nordic countries ranked highest in environmental sustainability, a survey released Friday at the World Economic Forum reported. [snip]

The United States was ranked No. 45. Despite ranking high in water quality and environmental protection, its production of greenhouse gases dragged down its overall standing. Britain was No. 66. Finishing at the bottom of the Environmental Sustainability Index were North Korea, Iraq, Taiwan, and the ex-Soviet republics of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.
 
sgeeeee said:
This thread just convinced me to start trying harder to conserve energy. I just turned the brightness down on my monitor. :)
Click to expand...

Reminds me of a Gallagher skit: "They should put an intelligence knobs on televisions; they have a brightness control, but that doesn't work..."

However, I would argue that there IS an intelligence knob; it's called "OFF"...
 
I hope to learn to collect, store, and regulate solar for light and whatever else I can power with it – but I don’t intend to mess around with it until I’m retired. Would be a waste of money to invest in doing it in a house I will sell probably sooner vice later.
My interest in the technology has nothing to do with any ideology though. Definitely not Stalinist – maybe Gilligan’s-Islandist. I’m just fascinated with self sufficiency (I know, it’s not exactly self-sufficient when you buy the equipment to do it – but it’s in the ballpark). I’ve always loved stories of survival and making a life in the wilderness – Robinson Crusoe, Swiss Family Robinson, Tunnel in the Sky, that sort of thing. I can picture myself in some remote locale, up late at night happily engrossed in some vintage sci-fi novel that’s been digitized and appears on a plasma screen powered by solar that I collected and stored myself. I’m pretty impressed with the brightness and battery life in LED flashlights. I also hear manufacturers are working out some the odd color issues to make more natural looking bright light that uses very little power.
 
Gilligan’s-Islandist
Click to expand...
That describes it ... I agree, Average Joe.

I'm in the same boat on solar. Two things stop me ... uncertainly regarding our current abode, and the name of a trusted solar vendor who can assist with the project, soup to nuts.

I've told DW often we just need to cover the south side of the garage with solar panels ...
 
Laurence said:
With most cars filled with plastics - petrolium products - and the environmental impact of all the lead and potentially toxic chemicals in every vehicle, it really doesn't make sense to junk a car before it's run into the ground, even if I could improve gas mileage dramatically.
Click to expand...

Well, if you are in a position that requires you to drive ~ 30,000 miles per year, I think it does make economic/environmental sense to purchase a high mpg car (whether hybrid or conventional high mpg). I'm hoping to avoid any emotional content here, and just say - it is still a personal decision, and there are other factors. Do as you see fit.

I don't think the 'junking' of your current vehicle is a valid argument, though. Wouldn't it be sold, and probably driven by someone who would drive less miles per year than you? There is no way to know this for sure, but it is likely - if it is in the 'junking' age, many people buy those as second cars or 'train station' cars and put very few miles on them. And every car gets 'junked' (partially recycled) at some point. It should be looked at a a sunk asset - it was doomed to be junked at the time it was purchased. So, I think that as long as the car is sold, and utilized for it's normal life, there is no more waste created by selling it - what does it matter how many owners a car has, as long as it is 'lives' out it's useful life? Now, if you buy new cars and total them every year, or don't maintain them at all so that they get scrapped early - that's a problem (in more ways than one).

-ERD50

PS - Although I think Shawn's response was over the top, I can see where someone would see some irony in the statement you made which links the war dead with our oil consumption, and a statement that you drive 30,000 miles a year. I think it may have been worthy of a discussion, but it came across to you as an attack.
 
TromboneAl said:
From a guy in Australia:

Chest fridge that consumes about 0.1 kWh per day. Yes, only about 100 Wh per day. If I connected my chest fridge to the power grid $5 would pay for the entire year of using it.
Click to expand...

Those numbers don't make sense to me. 100WH/day is just 4.166 watts per hour - about half of what a night light uses.

He says it runs just 2 minutes an hour. First, that it probably a really inefficient duty cycle (3.33% on) for a refrigeration unit - I think they need to run longer (at lower power) to overcome start-up losses. Most high efficient devices will actually be sized small to run near 100% - this does not add up.

Further, 4 watts/hour average used in 2 minutes an hour would be a 125 Watts draw ( ~ 1.1 Amp @ 115 V) for those 2 minutes. That is only enough to drive a 1/8 HP motor. I doubt you could find a chest freezer that consumes only 1.1 Amps while running - this does not add up. Well, here is one designed for off-grid applications, it might do it, but it is $590 for a very basic unit, Remember, this is a 10CFt fridge, inconvenient chest style, no freezer in this mode and then add $75 for a refrigerator thermostat:

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/refriger2.htm

4.166 W per hour average is 14 BTUs per hour. Refrigeration is only about 50% efficient (probably less, plus insulation losses), so a generous 7 BTUs output. At that rate, it would consume all that cooling power for 34 hours just to bring a gallon of water from 70F to 40F. And about another 170 hours to turn it into ice, if you were to set the thermostat below 32F. So there is no way you can get those kind of numbers if you actually use it and put some room temperature food in there to cool. They probably looked at just steady state with the contents already cooled. I bet the energy-star numbers quoted by the appliance makers take some loading/unloading into account. I bet these numbers are not apples-to-apples at all.

You might have no choice off the grid, but I doubt this makes economic sense for most people. Looking at some units at Sears, I doubt you would realistically save more than $30 a year over a more conventional fridge sized at 10 cubic feet. And it would be much cheaper to buy. Two tips: Avoid putting hot food in your fridge (safely air or water cool it first), Stack up the food you are returning to the fridge - open the door *once* and put it all in at one time. These two things will save $ and require no investment.

Two observations:

One - I think many of these environmentalists (and I know a few like this) get a real ego-stroke by claiming that everyone else is so stupid and the world would be so much better if they just did this simple stuff that they do. Sometimes they may be right about some things, but take it with a huge grain of salt. Their numbers often do not add up, or they ignore the other impacts (like calling an EV pollution free).

Two - I hate these claims about 'look, we could save (put generic big number here) if everyone just did X,Y, and Z'. Trouble is, we use very, very big numbers of energy - so any small, small savings is a big number when taken out of context. 0.001% of our energy usage is a big number. Sure, small things add up, but we need to look at the big picture and prioritize efforts. IIRC, transportation accounts for 40% of our energy usage - some real, meaningful, across-the-board, long-term (but not draconian) CAFE standards could probably have done more to cut energy usage and reduce greenhouse gas than anything else. And if they did it over the past 30 years, we'd probably all be driving 35+ mpg vehicles and not even feel we were compromising in any way - technology would have taken care of that, if there was an incentive.

-ERD50
 
Okay, how about this:
- Lawrence buys an econobox for his daily driver. He'll keep it on the road for as long as practical/safe.
- Lawrence sells the present gas guzzler to somebody else. Almost anybody would drive fewer miles. After the sale, Lawrence bids a fond farewell to the "glugosaurus" with a final meal of two cups of sugar straight into the tank. As Lawrence waives goodbye to the beast, he'll know he's done the best thing possible for the environment.

Oh, oh!!:
- Maybe Shawn would be interested in checking out the glugosaurus. Lawrence might even give you a good deal---ya know, to bury the hatchet.
 
Charles said:
I'm in the same boat on solar. Two things stop me ... uncertainly regarding our current abode, and the name of a trusted solar vendor who can assist with the project, soup to nuts.
Click to expand...
You're right, no homebuyer will pay you for a photovoltaic system. It probably returns the least % of all home improvements.

One type of solar contractor tries to underbid the crowd and survive on low margins. They don't have much flexibility and could easily leave you hanging while they're busy chasing the next job.

A better type of solar contractor has learned to invest in the latest tools, panel-mounting systems, & installation training to boost their margins. They have great customer-service & -education websites and long-term (highly trained) employees. The faster the serious customers find them so they can get up & down on the jobsite, the more money they make. It's unbelievable how quickly the installation can happen, even though every job is custom. So their prices are slightly above the average fees but by no means the most expensive. Ask them how long they've been doing installations and how long their top three workers have been with them.

The best solar contractor has become active in lobbying local govt and utilities for homeowner incentives. They know they can make the most money from govt buildings, schools, & businesses with the govt-supplied incentives to install 15 KW systems. If you run across a contractor like that (frequent quotes & articles in local publications) they'll probably treat you best. If they're investing in the "better" contractor's practices, too, then they'll be really busy...

Here's the guy who I consider "best" in our area: Keith Cronin. Maybe you can find someone comparable in yours.
 
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
 
wab said:
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
Click to expand...

I am going to have to go check them out.... but, I am VERY disappointed in the ones I have bought...

The first batch from SAMS lasted just a bit under one year...

The second batch has two burned out in a little over one year and three still going, but they have turned very yellow...

I just bought a bright one that is (I think) 6,000 K... it is a nice white, but for some reason I just can't get used to the temp of this one... and only after one month it started to make some weird noise for a few days when turned on.. now it is back to 'normal'...

If they make them as cheap as the old ones.. then I don't care if they only last one year... but for 5 to 10 times more.... disappointed...
 
wab said:
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
Click to expand...

Pretty ridiculous, huh? With the PG&E instant rebates, same approx prices here. Except for one fixture with a dimmer that we infrequently use, I've got cfl's in every one.

Some of them buzz or hum, but on my small sample size, only a few out of about 45. I use those in the outside fixtures.
 
wab said:
I didn't realize how cheap CFL bulbs had become. I went to Lowes today and picked up a pack of mini-CFLs (13W). 6 for $9, and there was a PSE instant-rebate that brought the price down to $3. $0.50/bulb.
Click to expand...
This thread has gotten me interested in trying some CFLs ut I don't know much about them. Do they rate them with comparable watt ratings to incandescent bulbs? If so, what would you do with a 13W CFL? Night light?
 
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