Christmas with family

[jfn111]

This year we're back to a big dinner with the the kids, grandkids and a bachelor friend. We are all vaccinated, except the three young grandkids plus the wife, friend and I have had the booster, so were going back to our normal traditions.

 

[DaveInMi]

If you think the vaccines are effective and both of you have been vaccinated, then I don't understand the concern.
Either you believe that the vaccines work or you do not.

 

[harllee]

If you think the vaccines are effective and both of you have been vaccinated, then I don't understand the concern.
Either you believe that the vaccines work or you do not.

But the vaccines do not work so well for everyone. For us old geezers (I am age 70) there is evidence the vaccines wear off over time. For immune compromised people (like my DH) the vaccines may not be effective at all. For us we have to rely on other people being vaccinated, testing negative and wearing masks. We want to live a life too.

 

[Chuckanut]

As a child I remember my mother and the other wives getting together in early November and plotting out the holiday festivities. By mid November I knew at whose house we would spend a good part of Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, New Years Eve, and New Years Day.

The men (IOW, husbands and a few of the older single fellows) got their marching orders and did as told. It all worked out very well.
You gotta love a plan that come together.

 

[bluelight]

Yesterday was my turn for holiday vaccination drama. For the last 20+ years I have hosted a cousin's Chirstmas party that is held 2 weeks before Christmas. A yearly get together that has grown to 30+ cousins, spouses and children from multiple states. Last year, the party was cancelled.

This year has been difficult, my niece unexpectedly passed away in July (non-Covid) and with careful consideration for safety, the family collectively has decided they want to keep the tradition going. The eldest family members are my 84 year old Aunt and Uncle who want to join us, but are concerned about being around unvaccinated people. Most of us are vaccinated and have had boosters with the exception of my 20 year great-nephews. After finding out that they weren't vaccinated, I asked if they would test that morning. I am willing to pay for any costs for their testing.

Upon hearing that, my daughter went ballistic and announced that if I was going to impose rules on my guests, that she and my grandchildren will not come. I hope she will change her mind, but the party will go on without them. The holiday season has barely begun, and I'm already done with it.

 

[Jim59]

The important thing is not whether they have been vaccinated, it’s have they taken a test which is a negative result.

 

[brett]

Yesterday was my turn for holiday vaccination drama. For the last 20+ years I have hosted a cousin's Chirstmas party that is held 2 weeks before Christmas. A yearly get together that has grown to 30+ cousins, spouses and children from multiple states. Last year, the party was cancelled.

This year has been difficult, my niece unexpectedly passed away in July (non-Covid) and with careful consideration for safety, the family collectively has decided they want to keep the tradition going. The eldest family members are my 84 year old Aunt and Uncle who want to join us, but are concerned about being around unvaccinated people. Most of us are vaccinated and have had boosters with the exception of my 20 year great-nephews. After finding out that they weren't vaccinated, I asked if they would test that morning. I am willing to pay for any costs for their testing.

Upon hearing that, my daughter went ballistic and announced that if I was going to impose rules on my guests, that she and my grandchildren will not come. I hope she will change her mind, but the party will go on without them. The holiday season has barely begun, and I'm already done with it.

We feel EXACTLY the same way. If you are vaccinated you are welcome. IF not...make alternate plans. Not about to put our health or the health of other guests at risk if it can be avoided.

 

[easysurfer]

We feel EXACTLY the same way. If you are vaccinated you are welcome. IF not...make alternate plans. Not about to put our health or the health of other guests at risk if it can be avoided.

I plan on staying put and offering to Zoom with family members on Christmas if they wish to. Heck, I'd even set up the Zoom meeting .

Curious about the vaccine required for your family gathering. How do you know they are vaccinated? Do you ask them to show documents that got jabbed and tested? Honor system? Makes me glad I'm staying home not going out .

 

[bluelight]

Curious about the vaccine required for your family gathering. How do you know they are vaccinated? Do you ask them to show documents that got jabbed and tested? Honor system? Makes me glad I'm staying home not going out .

In my particular instance, we keep in fairly close contact. A few family members have had Covid, some before vaccination others had breakthrough infections. I will not ask my great nephews for proof of a negative result, I'll just hope that they tell us the truth.

 

[jrcunniff]

The vaccines give much better protection which lasts longer than simply having recovered from Covid. The data are clear on that. For example, data from Oklahoma which I linked to in another thread, shows there were far more reinfections than breakthrough cases per 100,000 population in that state.

Apparently people who recover from Covid and later get vaccinated have "super immunity". (I'm curious if that's true from folks who get vaccinated first, then have a breakthrough case?)

There’s a recent New England Journal of Medicine piece based on a Qatar study that says natural immunity (having recovered from COVID) offers better protection than vaccines.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120

I’m not sharing this to suggest you are incorrect. I am sharing it because there is still so much to study and learn about both the disease and vaccines, that I believe it’s far too early in the process to suggest we know anything for certain one way or another.

I have no idea what the right answer is, and I’m not an expert on the topic. But unfortunately, we’re living in times where you can’t always trust what you read and hear, so I find it necessary to do my own research, weigh the (often conflicting) evidence, and reach my own conclusions.

 

[Badger]

Upon hearing that, my daughter went ballistic and announced that if I was going to impose rules on my guests, that she and my grandchildren will not come. I hope she will change her mind, but the party will go on without them. The holiday season has barely begun, and I'm already done with it.

My wife and I have been so careful for the past 2 years. At our age we don't want our last years to be sick with miserable prospects. We would not be pleased if someone came for Christmas dinner if they had a winter cold and much more upset if someone came with the potential to transmit Covid. One does not risk hurting someone with that kind of cavalier behavior.
We were hoping to have Christmas dinner at our home with the daughter and her family. That would make 6 of us. Then our daughter told us her husband and 2 grown children had not been vaccinated after all this time while the vaccine has been available. This didn't surprise me. It was their choice and not for any medical reasons. We cancelled the invite. There is not enough time before Christmas for them to get fully vaccinated but if they haven't done it already I really doubt they ever will. It also means if they want to visit in the future it will have to be outside where we can visit at a distance. It is our choice to protect ourselves as best as we can. It was their choice to not vaccinate. Everybody has to deal with the consequences of their choices.



Cheers!

 

[pacergal]

^^^
Absolutely right on, Badger

 

[anethum]

There’s a recent New England Journal of Medicine piece based on a Qatar study that says natural immunity (having recovered from COVID) offers better protection than vaccines.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2108120

I’m not sharing this to suggest you are incorrect. I am sharing it because there is still so much to study and learn about both the disease and vaccines, that I believe it’s far too early in the process to suggest we know anything for certain one way or another.

I have no idea what the right answer is, and I’m not an expert on the topic. But unfortunately, we’re living in times where you can’t always trust what you read and hear, so I find it necessary to do my own research, weigh the (often conflicting) evidence, and reach my own conclusions.

The study you cited is comparing primary Covid infections with reinfections, not breakthrough infections. The title of the NEJM article is:

"Severity of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfections as Compared with Primary Infections"

The article does NOT compare "natural immunity" with vaccination. In fact, the study authors specifically excluded vaccinated individuals from the study.

"Using national, federated databases that have captured all SARS-CoV-2–related data since the onset of the pandemic (Section S1 in the Supplementary Appendix, available with the full text of this letter at NEJM.org), we investigated the risk of severe disease (leading to acute care hospitalization), critical disease (leading to hospitalization in an intensive care unit [ICU]), and fatal disease caused by reinfections as compared with primary infections in the national cohort of 353,326 persons with polymerase-chain-reaction (PCR)–confirmed infection between February 28, 2020, and April 28, 2021, after exclusion of 87,547 persons with a vaccination record."

Here's a link to Oklahoma data which shows that far more individuals per 100,000 population have had reinfection cases compared to vaccinated individuals who had breakthrough cases. Go to the bottom of page 10.

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok...y-epi-report/2021.09.29 Weekly Epi Report.pdf

 

[Markola]

We would not be pleased if someone came for Christmas dinner if they had a winter cold and much more upset if someone came with the potential to transmit Covid. One does not risk hurting someone with that kind of cavalier behavior…It is our choice to protect ourselves as best as we can. It was their choice to not vaccinate. Everybody has to deal with the consequences of their choices.

Exactly. You made the right choice. And it’s not a morally-equivalent choice to not vaccinate, as if it’s a Coke vs. Diet Coke decision. One’s “choice” to go around in society unvaccinated is more like choosing to wander wherever one pleases with a hand grenade, especially around older and sicker people. Surely, everyone has more than enough information at this point and there really are no good reasons to not be vaccinated. Do such people simply not care about others all that much? I really wonder.

 

[Scuba]

Exactly. You made the right choice. And it’s not a morally-equivalent choice to not vaccinate, as if it’s a Coke vs. Diet Coke decision. One’s “choice” to go around in society unvaccinated is more like choosing to wander wherever one pleases with a hand grenade, especially around older and sicker people. Surely, everyone has more than enough information at this point and there really are no good reasons to not be vaccinated. Do such people simply not care about others all that much? I really wonder.

DH and I are vaccinated but our niece is not. She has had COVID and is not comfortable putting anything in her body that doesn’t have documented long-term results. She isn’t an anti-vaxxer nor is she a selfish, uncaring person. She has a PhD, works in healthcare and has to be tested frequently since she is not vaccinated, which she is happy to do. She wears a mask when interacting with patients.

We chose to get the vaccine and the booster as we are over 60 and felt that for us, the benefits outweighed potential risk. However, I don’t think it’s fair to judge those who aren’t comfortable taking the vaccine as selfish or uncaring. Many are good people who are truly afraid of potential long-term consequences of the vaccine and feel that for them, the potential risks outweigh the benefits.

DH and I just spent Thanksgiving with her. Since she is tested frequently, we actually felt safer with her than we would have with vaccinated people who haven’t been tested recently. They are more likely to be asymptotic carriers than a person who tests often.

 

[FIREd]

We kinda had a rehearsal of Christmas dinner last weekend - same people who will attend Christmas dinner but we were celebrating a birthday. Nobody wore masks. Everyone was up to date on their vaccine (3 doses for people over 65, 2 doses for everyone else). But since I had recently traveled to Paris, where I used the train and the subway extensively, I tested myself for COVID before going using a home test. I just became eligible for the booster and I have an appointment next week to get the shot. The extension of the health pass (which allows one to have a quasi-normal life here) will become dependent on receiving the booster starting on January 15, 2022.

 

[iloveyoga]

Tonight I was getting together with three of my life long GFs for Christmas. Our hostess called yesterday and has a sinus infection and one of the other ladies is not feeling well either. So no get together. Hopefully we can reschedule since we did not get together last year. All of us are vaccinated and I assume they have their boosters too.

 

[captain3d]

If a vaccinated person meets an unvaccinated person is the risk not on the unvaccinated? Considering both could have the virus?

 

[Markola]

DH and I are vaccinated but our niece is not. She has had COVID and is not comfortable putting anything in her body that doesn’t have documented long-term results….She has a PhD, works in healthcare and has to be tested frequently since she is not vaccinated, which she is happy to do. She wears a mask when interacting with patients…I don’t think it’s fair to judge those who aren’t comfortable taking the vaccine as selfish or uncaring.

I find this frightening that unvaccinated medical staff are allowed to interact with patients at all. Is disclosure required? I believe that I will start asking when I check in to appointments whether all medical staff have been vaccinated. I’m taking 82 y.o. DM to 3 appointments this month, and I am darn sure going to say we want vaccinated staff only.

 

[Aerides]

Mod Note:

This thread is to discuss and share your personal Christmas plans. Not to discuss general vaccine status judgments, who can get sick from whom, etc.

Since memories on this topic often run short, we closed a similar Thanksgiving thread for straying off topic as well. Christmas is still weeks away, so we'd like to keep this one open a bit longer for others who may wish to talk about their plans.

As a reminder from the Covid Forum sticky:
Threads discussing vaccine positions, personal risk tolerance, behavior judgments, etc., go downhill very quickly and have proven non-viable for positive interactions.

 

[jrcunniff]

The study you cited is comparing primary Covid infections with reinfections, not breakthrough infections. The title of the NEJM article is:

"Severity of SARS-CoV-2 Reinfections as Compared with Primary Infections"

The article does NOT compare "natural immunity" with vaccination. In fact, the study authors specifically excluded vaccinated individuals from the study.

"Using national, federated databases that have captured all SARS-CoV-2–related data since the onset of the pandemic (Section S1 in the Supplementary Appendix, available with the full text of this letter at NEJM.org), we investigated the risk of severe disease (leading to acute care hospitalization), critical disease (leading to hospitalization in an intensive care unit [ICU]), and fatal disease caused by reinfections as compared with primary infections in the national cohort of 353,326 persons with polymerase-chain-reaction (PCR)–confirmed infection between February 28, 2020, and April 28, 2021, after exclusion of 87,547 persons with a vaccination record."

Here's a link to Oklahoma data which shows that far more individuals per 100,000 population have had reinfection cases compared to vaccinated individuals who had breakthrough cases. Go to the bottom of page 10.

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok...y-epi-report/2021.09.29 Weekly Epi Report.pdf

Thanks for the clarification.

I have heard recent interviews with Dr. Marty Makary of Johns Hopkins where he suggests natural immunity is more effective, which is what led to my finding/posting the NEJM article. In his Washington Post piece he suggests the science is still unfolding on this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/09/15/natural-immunity-vaccine-mandate/

I’m fortunate that everyone in my family planning to gather is vaccinated, so this has not even been a topic of discussion for us.

Given the ages and health conditions of my parents, I would not feel comfortable having someone unvaxxed among the group, so I can certainly understand the position some of you are in. Personally, it would be a no-brainer to make vaccines a requirement for a gathering with people who are older or have pre-existing health conditions.

 

[Scuba]

I find this frightening that unvaccinated medical staff are allowed to interact with patients at all. Is disclosure required? I believe that I will start asking when I check in to appointments whether all medical staff have been vaccinated. I’m taking 82 y.o. DM to 3 appointments this month, and I am darn sure going to say we want vaccinated staff only.

Might be smarter to ask when the staff’s last COVID test was. Vaccinated people can still get and spread COVID, while those recently tested whether vaxxed or not are less likely to spread anything.

 

[captain3d]

I was all set for Christmas with family having not visited since Oct 19 (different country). Flights booked etc and then had to delay again due to new travel complexities and unknown developments in the coming weeks.

So will try again in March. Frustrating isn’t it?

 

[Skitso999]

Why not do something a little crazy, and have the meal at two different tables about 20 feet apart? Split up all the food items, etc.

Yes, it'd work, but wouldn't be very normal!

Yes, I'm serious.

 

[Skitso999]

If a vaccinated person meets an unvaccinated person is the risk not on the unvaccinated? Considering both could have the virus?

Yes, that is very much correct. The vaccinated one, if they have a breakthrough case, would have a mild case of covid. Those are facts as I know them.

Check it out and research it yourself if you don't agree.