College Selection

[SecondCor521]

My dad gave me carte blanche. I ended up attending an Ivy League school for 2.5 years and then graduated from a small, lesser-known but still well-regarded regional liberal arts university about 13 years ago. I liked the second school much better mostly because it was a much better fit for me culturally, but I do sometimes wonder how different my life would have been had I graduated from the Ivy.

I have three kids and am saving for their college but right now my target is 4 years worth of the average public 4 year university tuition, room, board, books, and fees according to the college board. I think the number is ~$12K per year per kid now, and I assume 6% inflation. With my divorce, I have not thought through all of the financial ramifications. Philosophically I want my kids to understand how much college costs and how rewarding it can be. I don't want to have them graduating from Harvard with $100K in loans and then become a teacher. But I also know that I have not reached for my dreams and the consequences of leading a practical life. I guess I would want them to at least think about the cost/benefit ratio. I also wonder how to be "fair" between the three of them if, say, kid #1 chooses Stanford and kid #2 chooses Local U, with kid #3 going into the Army.

2Cor521

 

[Zoocat]

I'd like to caution you that if she is aiming at a career that requires graduate school, it's better to go to a mid-tier school as an undergraduate and then a top-tier school as a graduate student than the other way around. Some people may choke in a place like Caltech and then wind up at a B-grade graduate school. Engineering, for example, is a field where she will absolutely want to go on for a Masters, at least. On the other hand, if graduate school is not a concern, then she should go for the gold as an undergraduate.

A little hint about graduate school: forget everything you know about how to get into Stanford as an undergraduate - being president of the high-school "save the whales" organization, etc., doesn't count. What she needs to do is work with a few professors as a research assistant and (1) get her name on a few publications and so that (2) they can write truly strong recommendation letters as opposed to "I don't remember her, but according to my records she was in my class and got an A."

There was another thread on this topic a few months back. I agree with the above poster. As someone who has been affiliated with University life for a long time and researched a lot about colleges, I always tout the benefits of the small liberal arts college where a science major can do research as an undergrad and be a teaching assistant, roles that at a big University are reserved for graduate students. My son, a geology major, received those benefits at a small college, and with those personal recommendations from professors won a National Science Foundation grant . All this before he got the BA! Many many opportunities are available at small liberal arts colleges that are not available to students at "big name" universities.

Also, the other part of a students education, namely the liberal arts, is better taught in the small seminar classes at a liberal arts college than in large lecture halls at big universities with discussion sections led by inexperienced teachers who are graduate students.

Another point, many students who have a firm idea about their major before college, change their minds once they get into the classes or do an internship. Many would-be engineers in this category.

 

[jeff2006]

Hard to tell with an 18 YO.

But if your daughter has a theoretical bent, and is interested in serious R&D, for example, she will probably be significantly better off with a school like Cal Tech. She will certainly need at least a masters degree, and probably a PhD.

OTOH, if she is interested in becoming a journeyman engineer, maybe going into management later on, she may do just as well, or better, with a state-university BS as her highest degree. As Justin suggested, the big names around here for working engineers are NC State, Virginia Tech, Clemson, Big-10 schools, and so forth, rather than Cal Tech or Duke.

This is, of course, a broad generalzation, with many real-life counterexamples readily available.

 

[Leonidas]

BiL is the director of engineering for a decent sized company (3+Bil in sales) involved in the oil industry. When it comes to hiring fresh graduates his philosophy is that he doesn't care where you went to school or what your GPA was. He says that as long as you have a degree from an accredited school he thinks that proves you are teachable, and the first few years on the job are going to be spent learning how the business is really done.

The people he wants to hire are the ones who have demonstrated a passion for engineering and the ability to put into practice what they have learned. He looks for that in their personal interests or capstone projects. His idea of the ideal candidate is one whose senior project was to work with a company and actually develop or improve a product, or otherwise solve a real world engineering problem, and then spends most of the interview talking about that.

His explanation for his preference was that too many engineers have a hard time understanding that a product or solution not only has to do the job it was intended to do, but it has to make money for the company through profit and repeat business. It does no good to have the "perfect" product if it takes to long to get to market, doesn't have enough profit built in, or if the customer isn't satisfied and goes somewhere else the next time. The graduate who has made that leap in thinking is the kind of engineer he prefers to hire. He said "good enough" and ready to sell beats "it'll be perfect if we could just figure out this one last problem."

 

[2B]

I'll second most of what Leonidas said but....

Companies are very interested in GPAs. Some are very snobbish about the school but it isn't always the "big names." If some VP "likes" the grads from ol' Bugtussle U, they get favored.

I've recruited and hired numerous new grads for the oil and chemical business. I can assure you there is no correlation between school and career success. Some schools may get a very small hiring premium for their new grads but it disappears after two years on the job.

I have personally not seen any school produce "better" graduates. I will say that MIT produces a high percentage of grads who think they are smarter than God. Some of them have trouble buttoning their shirts.

I've paid for two kids to go to Texas A&M's College of Engineering. They were told that they could go to UT or A&M or they better have a pretty good story. I don't see a "value" in dropping big money to go to an expensive, prestigeous college or paying out of state tuition when high quality in state tuition is available. The high priced alternatives won't return the "value" for the extra cost to your child. I know a lot of people that did drop big money to send their kids to name schools and I never saw it get paid back in any form other than their ability to say "my son went to Rice." BFD.

Save the money for grad school. The nice thing about that is that anywhere an engineer goes for grad school will be paid for with TA positions -- not including an MBA.

 

[astromeria]

My daughter went to Rice

 

[REWahoo]

My daughter went to Rice

Was she in the MOB?

 

[Spanky]

It pains me to report this, as a Berkeley alumnus, but the institution has a reputation for not making available in a timely fashion all the courses needed for graduation. Many students take 6 years to graduate with a BA.

It's also true at UW-Madison or U of Minnesota. Many students complain about the lack of class offering to graduate within 4 years.

Another point, many students who have a firm idea about their major before college, change their minds once they get into the classes or do an internship. Many would-be engineers in this category.

I will not be suprised if she changes her mind about her major or career direction.

 

[Spanky]

His explanation for his preference was that too many engineers have a hard time understanding that a product or solution not only has to do the job it was intended to do, but it has to make money for the company through profit and repeat business. It does no good to have the "perfect" product if it takes to long to get to market, doesn't have enough profit built in, or if the customer isn't satisfied and goes somewhere else the next time. The graduate who has made that leap in thinking is the kind of engineer he prefers to hire. He said "good enough" and ready to sell beats "it'll be perfect if we could just figure out this one last problem."

Yes, an engineer has to understand the importance of time to market and developing a product that has a market and profitable. However, "good enough" is not always good enough for medical devices that are regulated by the FDA. The product has to be "perfect" and "safe" to use.

 

[Spanky]

If you think your daughter may end up as a civil engineer in state govt, she would probably be just as well off (or better off) at a state school. UT and UW (madison) both have a national rep for civil and I have to imagine an excellent local rep for state DOTs and consulting firms in the area. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but Caltech doesn't have a lot of name recognition around here in civil engineering (as compared to a state school - but it is 3000 miles away). Plus, if you go to a local state school that everyone else in the industry in your locality attended, then you have a huge alumni network and you are an instant insider - your degree is a known quantity. I don't see lot of potential for a big payoff for attending a top notch private ($$$$) school for civil. Other disciplines, sure.

Name recognition may not be as important as having a PE license for civil engineering.

 

[Spanky]

I've paid for two kids to go to Texas A&M's College of Engineering. They were told that they could go to UT or A&M or they better have a pretty good story. I don't see a "value" in dropping big money to go to an expensive, prestigeous college or paying out of state tuition when high quality in state tuition is available. The high priced alternatives won't return the "value" for the extra cost to your child.

I am pleasantly suprised that both of these schools (UT or Texas A&M) have very low in-state tuition (less than $5K) and out of state tuition is only $11K compared to $18 - 20K for other schools of U of california and big-10 universities. Both schools offer a lot of merit scholarships that waive tuition for all four years plus $2000 per year for room and board. I wonder how do they afford that when Texas does not collect income tax.

 

[BarbaraAnne]

I am pleasantly suprised that both of these schools (UT or Texas A&M) have very low in-state tuition (less than $5K) and out of state tuition is only $11K compared to $18 - 20K for other schools of U of california and big-10 universities. Both schools offer a lot of merit scholarships that waive tuition for all four years plus $2000 per year for room and board. I wonder how do they afford that when Texas does not collect income tax.

Texas universities have tuition and fees. The numbers you are quoting for in-state tuition are only the tuition part. The fees are about equal to the tuition. Therefore for a year of in-state tuition and fees is over $8K. Out-of-state is much higher also when fees are added.

 

[haha]

I wonder how do they afford that when Texas does not collect income tax.

Oil and gas severence taxes. Even with production depleting, at recent prices it is a bonanza.

ha

 

[Leonidas]

Yes, an engineer has to understand the importance of time to market and developing a product that has a market and profitable. However, "good enough" is not always good enough for medical devices that are regulated by the FDA. The product has to be "perfect" and "safe" to use.

We actually discussed "good enough" at length (we spend a lot of time together driving on hunting trips and solve all of the world's problems while on the road). It doesn't mean that it's shoddy work - but that it meets all the requirements that it is supposed to - but it stops there. He says engineers always like to do more - add another little gizmo or capability that's was not in the specs. I guess you might call it "over engineering". His company has been around for more than a century and he said that they had developed a reputation of making some really good products that often were overly complex solutions to the problems. The increased price cost them business. Then, because they stand behind their products, they found that the complex nature of what they created often caused problems if they had to go back and fix things that went wrong.

They don't deal with medical equipment, but everything they build winds up a long way below the surface of an ocean somewhere. On our last trip together he got a call from somewhere off Nigeria where one of the crews had completed a 2-year, $2 Million fix to a problem caused by a 1/64 of an inch screw up (somebody painted a surface that shouldn't have been). It was a good thing because if the fix hadn't worked the cost would have gone up to $20 million per hole, times several holes. Nobody would have died, but some heads would have rolled if a bill came in for $80 - 160 million.

 

[astromeria]

Was she in the MOB?

No, but she did streak (clad only in strategically placed shaving cream) on Halloween as part of a small mob. One year a guy accidentally broke an expensive glass library door when he made a butt print on it during this annual merriment. The fundraiser to help him pay for a new door was called "Save Mike's Ass."

 

[Spanky]

Texas universities have tuition and fees. The numbers you are quoting for in-state tuition are only the tuition part. The fees are about equal to the tuition. Therefore for a year of in-state tuition and fees is over $8K. Out-of-state is much higher also when fees are added.

You are right. I was mistaken. The flat tuition rate (tuition and misc fees) is $4,216 (in-state) and $11,031 (out-of-state) per semester. The amounts will be 2x for one year.

 

[eridanus]

Many students complain about the lack of class offering to graduate within 4 years.

For some students, this is a GOOD thing. Delaying entering the workforce on the parental dime...ahh yeah. 8)

 

[mb]

Engineering, for example, is a field where she will absolutely want to go on for a Masters, at least.

Interesting, when I graduated I viewed an MS as sort of "no man's land" as far as employment opportunities. A BS engineer with a good GPA and some undergrad research could pretty much get any job that an MS could get whereas some jobs required a Ph.D. and they would not settle for an MS. The argument for an MS was that you either wanted to delay going into the real world a little longer or wanted to learn just a little more.

In my field (Ch.E.) Minnesota, Wisconsin and Berkeley are usually ranked equal or higher than Cal Tech although a lot of that is the size of the departments. They are all easily top 10. They definitely have different cultures. I found grad school at Berkeley to be kind of "laid back." While in grad school a professor returned from a sabbatical at Minnesota and reported that he thought that grad students at Minnesota worked harder than those at Berkeley. The grad student reaction was either "FU" or, "DUH, they're in Minnesota and we're in California! Maybe there is a reason why they do nothing but work!"

Strongly agree with the poster that the prestige of the grad school is much more important than that of the undergrad.

MB

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I'll second most of what Leonidas said but....

Companies are very interested in GPAs. Some are very snobbish about the school but it isn't always the "big names." If some VP "likes" the grads from ol' Bugtussle U, they get favored.

I've recruited and hired numerous new grads for the oil and chemical business. I can assure you there is no correlation between school and career success. Some schools may get a very small hiring premium for their new grads but it disappears after two years on the job.

I have personally not seen any school produce "better" graduates. I will say that MIT produces a high percentage of grads who think they are smarter than God. Some of them have trouble buttoning their shirts.

I've paid for two kids to go to Texas A&M's College of Engineering. They were told that they could go to UT or A&M or they better have a pretty good story. I don't see a "value" in dropping big money to go to an expensive, prestigeous college or paying out of state tuition when high quality in state tuition is available. The high priced alternatives won't return the "value" for the extra cost to your child. I know a lot of people that did drop big money to send their kids to name schools and I never saw it get paid back in any form other than their ability to say "my son went to Rice." BFD.

Save the money for grad school. The nice thing about that is that anywhere an engineer goes for grad school will be paid for with TA positions -- not including an MBA.

I agree "most" companies seem more interested in the GPA than the school.
Note I said most.

BTW, I have actually been to Bugtussle, Texas.

JG

 

[Callie]

I don't know which schools are better than others, but RPI offered a 100% scholarship to a family friend as they want more women in sciences. she grabbed this.

http://www.rpi.edu/

Our first in college is an English major at high cost liberal arts school in New England. all girls - she is already compaining about no boys.....

 

[audreyh1]

I am pleasantly suprised that both of these schools (UT or Texas A&M) have very low in-state tuition (less than $5K) and out of state tuition is only $11K compared to $18 - 20K for other schools of U of california and big-10 universities. Both schools offer a lot of merit scholarships that waive tuition for all four years plus $2000 per year for room and board. I wonder how do they afford that when Texas does not collect income tax.

The Texas University System (including UT, A&M, and a few others) owns oil producing properties which contribute to a monster fund that pays for all infrastructure, buildings etc. This means that only part of the cost of the system is paid for by the state (salaries, etc.).

Audrey

 

[justin]

Don't know about other state's top notch schools, but I checked Univ. of NC and North Carolina State Univ. for their undergrad tuition rates and fees. Totals come in right around $5k/yr for in state (UNC might have been a few hundred more than NCSU). Pretty sweet deal for those able to take advantage. Plenty of jobs straight out of college from either place (if you pick one of the "correct" majors) for $40-50k+.

 

[jazz4cash]

I am currently going thru this also. I have one daughter graduating high school and another graduating college, so I think my perspective is fresh. Unfortunately, I am so damn skeptical about the process and our options, that it is not as much fun as it should be. I feel cheated by the in-state oppourtunities as in-state tuition has risen 40% in the last five years and is now comparable to out of state in other areas. I think the most important thing is to find an atmosphere that has the right fit for your child.........there will be many that fit the bill, but finding "the one" is the problem. I would be very surprised if she could not get a nice merit scholorship with her credentials, but the key is finding a school that wants/needs your kid.....usually a school that is less popular, but well regarded in her selected field. If shes interested in CE, that should be no prolem as there are many good choices public and private. Work-study and/ or intern oppourtunities in these areas tend to be very good if relevent to thier degree area, so inquire about them. Also, you should apply early and if you get a merit offer, some "competitive" schools may attempt to match. I only wish my kids were interested in technical fields, but it's not thier thing and daughter #2 is very focused on elementary education. Congratulations to you and your daughter, and glad to hear you are enjoying the process!...........hearing your story helps me stay rational. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[justin]

My thoughts on engineering undergrad at large state univ - scholarships were hard to come by for entering freshmen unless you were top notch. Once you are in, there seemed to be foundations, institutes, societies, honorary fraternities, research programs, assistanceships, etc. that were throwing around grants, scholarships, and research assistanceships constantly. I think I managed to get 12+ of these for $1000 to $10000 each during years 2-3 of undergrad (no year 4 for me).

There were so many where the departmental scholarship coordinator went seeking applicants just so the money wouldn't go unspent. Frequently, there would be 1-3 applicants for a $1000 or $2000 scholarship/grant. I still get the emails from the college chapter of our professional society seeking applicants for 6 scholarships where they have only received 1 application total.

I guess it depends on where you attend school and the strength of the program. A few $1-2k scholarships can easily cover in state tuition at a lot of schools.

There is money out there, even for "ok" students. Plus, count on a decent summer job or coop experience paying decent salary well above minimum wage.

 

[Nords]

I think the most important thing is to find an atmosphere that has the right fit for your child.........there will be many that fit the bill, but finding "the one" is the problem. I would be very surprised if she could not get a nice merit scholorship with her credentials, but the key is finding a school that wants/needs your kid.....usually a school that is less popular, but well regarded in her selected field.

We made the mistake of showing our 9th-grader around the U.S. Naval Academy, so now "everything else is just another school". We think that we're going to end up planning most of our family vacations over the next three years around college visits to smaller engineering schools. It's up to her to find herself a new home, because it's not going to be her old home!

I like the RPI idea over Cal Tech... 5000 students is a lot smaller population to work with.