College tuition: How much is too much?

[Old Microbiologist]

I know I’ll get some flaming over this but I’ll throw in my 2 cents. The decision is very important. In the US it is all about where you went to school and secondarily what your major is. I have multiple degrees with an AS from Baylor, a BS in Microbiology from Cal Poly, a MS in Laboratory Management from CSUF and a PhD in Immunology from Cornell. I did well as a senior research scientist BUT it was the degrees from Baylor and Cornell that opened up doors for me. I will add that the AS was a freebie from the Army obtained while I attended a 1 year long military advanced course as a Medical Laboratory NCO. My BS cost roughly $72 a Quarter and the same for the MS but that was back in the 70’s and early 80’s. The Cornel PhD was again free to me but not actually as I had to pay the military 2 years of service for each year at Cornell so 7 years of service. My point is you can find ways to get around paying exorbitant fees and tuitions.

I retired to Hungary where University up to all levels are free. There are courses at Semmelweis University in English and the education is excellent. The same is true in other European countries such as Slovenia where everyone speaks English as a second language. My point is, and this is a real thing, if you don’t graduate from one of the big universities in the US then it doesn’t matter at all where you go. A degree from Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Columbia, MIT, Stanford, or Purdue is going to be a career booster because of inside connections. There are others but I am ranking based on what I see in the world. Secondarily is what you major in. Both my kids ignored my advice and got useless degrees (my son in history as George Mason and my daughter in Film Arts at Temple) and have been struggling since. I warned both of them not to do that and now they realize what I was saying. A degree now must be in something that pays well and should pay back the insane tuition costs within 3 years. A JD at Yale or Harvard assuming you graduate in the top 1/3 of the class (another very important distinction) will pay for itself. The same for medicine from one of the big 5 or dentistry from anywhere. If anyone knows of a poor dentist it is news to me. If a professional job isn’t attractive then make certain they major in something which has a future. Internet Security is one, Artificial Intelligence is another, Quantum Math is definitely going to be important as are material sciences. To a lesser degree chemical engineering, aeronautical engineer, etc. Financial stuff is also never going away and anyone who masters algorithmic trading is going to be safe and secure for their entire lives. My PhD was actually very heavy in non-parametric statistics and I had serious trouble finding any professors anywhere who could help me to understand this extremely complex theory. There aren’t any as anyone who has that education works on Wall Street as it runs out that statistical modeling is what is used to predict markets. I was using it to model animal responses to develop aerosol infection models. Biological systems are complex and very difficult to model so I actually ended up inventing my own statistical modeling methods. The weather is also predicted using the same systems. Anyway, my main point is don’t waste your money on stupid degrees at bad universities. If it isn’t one of the biggies then it is a waste of time and the child should focus on how to get a professional degree. I would suggest for medical school as an example a lesser degree in something easy (to get a maximum GPA) at a lesser but still respectable school like Emory U. followed by a 3 year medical degree at some excellent place like Johns Hopkins will pay for itself quickly.

 

[ncbill]

Except most high school students have no realistic chance at admission at the HYMPS schools, unless they're a recruited athlete or one of their parents went there.

Military still works to pay for undergraduate & graduate schools...my kids used it to pay for undergraduate & I have a relative (who graduated from George Mason) who was sent to a state med school by the Army & retired O-5, now in civilian practice.

 

[ivinsfan]

OM I don't know why you think you'd get flamed. Your main point has been agreed with buy the majority of posters here.

Having said that, the beauty of this country is you can have a great life if you educate yourself, have a good work ethic, can play nice with others. Many students are served well by the unis in this country. And those that pick unemployable majors such as your kids will have a harder time. But I'll ask you theoretically is that the fault of the school, the kids who pick the "bad" major or the parents who kind of cave and pay for the bad majors because they want to pretend their kid is a fully functioning adult at 16-18 and gets to call the shots?

 

[imoldernu]

Back to statistics and planning. For anyone who has not been to the main Niche website, here is a dig-down to one tiny part... that of best schools for specific professions... I would reiterate my earlier suggestion that an hour or two spent on the site would be most worthwhile.
https://www.niche.com/colleges/search/best-colleges-for-psychology/

One of my sons has three children... all in colleges or grad school at the same time... and all with full or nearly full scholarships. While the kids are smart, it was my DIL who did most of the research. After many hours of searching for help on her own, she went to the "Niche" website to verify the cost, quality, and subsidies offered.

The oldest son is in the University of Pittsburgh, in his third year of postgrad work. Next daughter has finished her final college year at U of F, Tampa... and has a post grad scholarship offered at three different schools. The youngest is going into his last year at Miami University, and will have post graduate education paid for as part of his... "Stamps"... Scholarship. he is contemplating Stanford as an alternative for post grad work.
https://www.fastweb.com/college-scholarships/scholarships/164684

Total savings for my son and his wife, should they have had to pay... between
$1.5M and $2M. Those hours of homework have paid off, and they have been able to retire in Florida at age 59. Helps that they were both lawyers.

 

[exnavynuke]

I agree. I told DS that as a mom I want to give him whatever he wants. But as an accountant, the practical side of me takes over.

There are a few questions I consider when looking at college majors as they relate to life as an adult later:
1. What do you want to do for a living?
2. What degree will that require?
3. How much will that cost?
4. Will the cost be worth the pay?
5. If not, will the enjoyment/fulfillment of the job be enough to make it worth it anyway?

Then it's time to look at the rest of life after college:
1. What kind of life do you want? Single in a tiny-house, living an ERE lifestyle? Married with 5 kids supporting them in a mcmansion, with 2 cars, a boat, and a nicely funded retirement account and paying for the kid's college yourself etc?

Then it's time to see if the choices about work/education, and life in general, match up. If they don't (which they often won't), then it's time to make some compromises in one or both of those areas.

Work is going to be ~40 hours/week for most people, while life in general still goes on for the other 128 hours each week. Planning solely for the 40 hours seems short-sighted to me, but it's what most people focus all their energy on.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

ivinsfan, No it isn't the fault of the schools. My children made their choices and now have to live with them. My son is correcting his choice by getting a useful master's but in Israel. My daughter is marrying a successful internet security expert. So, as in all things life works it out. My main point is that a university degree is useful if it is in something beneficial down the road. My other point is that in the US business/political world having the "right" degree makes it far easier to get started earlier. You have to examine it as a cost/benefit ratio analysis.

What I left unsaid is that most university degrees are actually not necessary. As an example I have a brother (from my father's second marriage) who never attended university but instead self-studied programming and network architecture. He then took a bunch of Microsoft Certifications and immediately started making in the mid $150k range as a network engineer. Mostly he strings cables and sets up servers, switches, and routers but is paid very well. So, there are definitely ways to get around the university bottleneck. IMHO, the university education went off the rails somewhere after the 80's and went from public institutions service model to a business model. I believe that education should be a right and should be free or at least cheap and should not be run as a business for profit. It was cheap when I went. My Vietnam GI Bill was $270 a month and my tuition was far less than that. Cal Poly is a fine school and I got an excellent education from some excellent professors. When I received my PhD at Cornell I worked hand in hand with many professors (mostly as I was older than most of them) and became friends with them. My tuition at that time (which was paid by the Army) was $35k a year. An Associate Professor (the bulk rank for most professors) salary at that time was $45k. My Army salary at the same time was $85k. I looked hard at that and was wondering where my tuition was going because it certainly didn't go to any professors. Tuitions have tripled since and the salaries are basically the same. So, something is rotten in the system. This is what happens when you run something as a business which should really be a public non-profit institution. Cornell is a 50/50 public-private institution (like the California University system) and half of the professors are paid from the private side and half from the state side which is strange. The private guys were paid less and have to make it up from grants.

I have a nephew who is a doctor in Canada who earns in excess of $600k as an assistant professor (the lowest rank) on a state salary but makes it up from research grants. So, this system is very strange. The prof's who are not in areas where grants are forthcoming have to settle for just teaching and writing. They get a pittance from any books they write but can do consulting jobs as well. My point to all of this is there is a lot of money flooding into universities but the prof's are left to their own devices to earn money outside the university so where is the tuition going? In my lab I paid for everything and had a grant for my research so I cost the university nothing. Most PhD students take no classes at all and neither did I. I spent all my time in a lab that I was renting from then university and had an office in the library which I rented as well. My research grants was $150k and it all went into my research which the university benefited from as I had to set up a research account with the billing department and pay an administrative overhead of 45%. So, what was the $35k tuition for?

I think we need to re-evaluate the entire system. But, the subject here is what choices a child/parent should make with the system we are stuck with now. If I were to do it again, I would go to a foreign school. I think it is a better education in general and leads to a further education living overseas. The holy grail would be one of the big universities with the opportunities and inside connections that come with that. There are also other avenues towards success if one looks forwards and can see those possibilities.

 

[Physics Guy]

Both of our children were admitted to a great school in state (nationally ranked in the areas they were interested in) and a well regarded private school (also highly ranked in those areas) that cost significantly more. In a strictly cost benefit analysis the in-state option would have been a better choice. Yet I was willing to pay the difference because the smaller size, different social atmosphere, and ability to do college 10+ away from your old support structures (forcing some growth that might not have occurred parents and old friends are within a hour's drive) was worth it to our kids.

If it had been more of hardship I would have been much more forceful about the in-state option but we could afford it even if writing the checks didn't exactly fill us with joy.I like to think that it also helped them see that we would respect their choice when they said that the private school was clearly their number 1.

 

[tulak]

Both of our children were admitted to a great school in state (nationally ranked in the areas they were interested in) and a well regarded private school (also highly ranked in those areas) that cost significantly more. In a strictly cost benefit analysis the in-state option would have been a better choice. Yet I was willing to pay the difference because the smaller size, different social atmosphere, and ability to do college 10+ away from your old support structures (forcing some growth that might not have occurred parents and old friends are within a hour's drive) was worth it to our kids.

This is exactly my thinking with DD. In our case, the private school is about 1.5x the in-state option. I’m not looking forward to paying extra, but I believe at the end of four years, she’ll be better off. Money well spent.

The problem I see with OP’s case is that I don’t think the UW is worth it. It’s a great school, but not that great.

 

[MarieIG]

The kids don't qualify for income-based repayment or other types of forgiveness?

They can also use military service for loan repayment:

https://www.military.com/education/money-for-school/student-loan-repayment.html

From what the grandmother told me, they are taking the lowest payment option. The grandmother is 70 yeas of age. No forgiveness.

One of the mothers that co-signed (a single mother) rolled her daughter's student loan into the mortgage. The daughter wants to become a social worker and is currently working at some type of a half-way house counseling. The mother co-signed for her son as well. He got a degree in computer science and reported is making very good money and has taken over the payment of his loans.

No military.

 

[fasteddie911]

I went to school across the country, thinking it'll help me mature and grow. It did put me outside my comfort zone and mature in a way. However, it was challenging and depressing at times, the distance, the vibe/cultural differences, etc. I knew a couple classmates that ended up transferring to colleges closer to home. Ultimately, I don't think it was worth the higher price tag. College felt like I was in a cocoon, and I spent most of my time on campus studying and such anyway. I felt I did my most growth working my first job out of college, away from home. Maybe that experience was only possible due to leaving for college. But I think the same experience could've been had, more economically, by doing State school, working/interning elsewhere in summers, or summer schools elsewhere, going abroad, doing national school exchanges, or leaving for grad school.

 

[Old Microbiologist]

fasteddie911 - I see what you are saying. For me, I attended university after serving 10 years in the Army and worked full time while going to school carrying 25 units per quarter for my BS degree. I was able to get grandfathered and licensed as a Clinical Laboratory Technologist and worked nights at a community hospital in Southern California. I finished my BS in 1 year as I already had transfer credit from Baylor, CLEP, and a plethora of DANTES tests (college level equivalent) so needed to meet my in resident requirements of 1 year. Stupidly (or maybe not so much) I also did the simultaneous membership program with the California National Guard and ROTC. ROTC has a 2 year requirement so I "had" to do a Master's to finish up the requirements of ROTC. My plan was to stay in the National Guard as a rotary pilot (which I did) but later I was involuntarily recalled to active duty as a Microbiologist and ended up stuck for 18 years. Once I hit my 20 years I tried to retire and it was refused so I opted for the PhD instead which committed me for the 8 more years.

I have never had the opportunity to just go to school so for me this is a foreign concept and an unimaginable luxury which apparently is the normal expectation for kids these days. Both my kids had to work while going to school and both my ex-wife #2 (their mother who is a rich corporate attorney) and I forced that on them as a valuable lesson in life.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I went to a in state university and because my grades were so high got free tuition and a stipend for my graduate degree. If you can afford to send kids out of state no problem. I hate to read the stories where it hurts the parents financially.

 

[fullplay2024]

OP, I don't have any specific advice for you, but I wanted to thank you for starting this thread. Our family will likely be in a similar situation when our oldest child goes to college next year. We're gently encouraging him to consider in-state flagship, but we have to see where he ends up receiving acceptances, and where he chooses to attend.

 

[ocean view]

OP here with an update. Today we paid the commitment fee for CSU Monterey Bay, 2 days before the deadline. We researched ALL of the things suggested by other members (thank you for your input) and discussed and discussed and discussed. DH really wanted DS to pick CC then transfer to a UC, but that really wasn’t sitting well with DS. He will try to transfer to UW in 2 years, but recognizes that his chances are slim and that he may be at CSUMB for all of his undergrad. We remind him that UW will still be there for grad school. And of course, we realize that many things could change between now and then. He is also still on the waiting list for UC Santa Cruz, which he will accept if an offer appears. A 6-8 week wait for that decision.

Cost per year (all in) will be $23k. Easily within our budget with some leftover for grad school.

I know it is the right decision for several reasons, and DS does too. However, I always imagined that the day he signed up for college would be quite joyous and unfortunately that is not the mood in the house today. I’m sure tomorrow will be better.

 

[ivinsfan]

Thanks for that update and best wishes for your DS.. College planning is fraught with worrying about making the right choice and hopefully making everyone happy.

Fingers crossed the SC waitlist will open and improve things a little. But never the less pat yourselves on the back. You are playing the long game for your son's future and sometimes you don't get instant gratification.

When my DD decamped their small local school to do PSEO at the local CC, we heard a lot of negative feedback ..in attitude from the school district and by word of mouth from other parents.

At the youngest DD 10 year reunion, by then DD had a wonderful management job at one of the biggest law firms in the city. Her fellow students many of whom had trouble transitioning to the bigger schools and/or huge student loans told her "your parents were so smart to send you to CC, I wish I would have done that myself"

Good luck as your only chick flys from the nest...

 

[SecondCor521]

Congratulations on finding a solution that everyone can agree to and be satisfied with.

And tomorrow hopefully will be better. My DS19 got declined by his first choice but got a very good scholarship/financial aid package from his second choice school which is also a very fine university. So there were some mixed feelings around here for a little while, but his attitude has gradually improved. One of my DD's high school counselors says you have to let them grieve for a little bit. I'd give it some time and also encourage a positive view about the great things that are in store for him.

 

[Nick12]

One way to lower one's cost in attending college is getting a job in the school cafeteria. I washed dishes for several years while attending college. I could eat for free and eat as much as I want.

 

[youbet]

One way to lower one's cost in attending college is getting a job in the school cafeteria. I washed dishes for several years while attending college. I could eat for free and eat as much as I want.

Good one Nick! And so true!

DW and I grew up as urban poor attending inner city Chicago public schools K - 12. We both got accepted at small, private schools but obviously needed big time financial help.

DW had good grades and test scores and was given a combo of loans, scholarships and jobs. Her main job was getting up at 4 AM and making donuts in the cafeteria! Yuuuuch...... But she did it all 4 years. This got her free board and a minimal hourly dole which was her personal spending money. She paid back the loans by becoming a special education teacher and working for the Chicago Public Schools in some very, very dicey neighborhoods which resulted in her loans being forgiven over a period of years. So, BA from a quality private school with no help from parents and no debt (after the loans were forgiven). And cafeteria donuts played an important role!

 

[38Chevy454]

One way to lower one's cost in attending college is getting a job in the school cafeteria. I washed dishes for several years while attending college. I could eat for free and eat as much as I want.

My first year of college, I lived in the dorms. I also worked 2 hours/day vacuuming in one of the other sets of dorms. It was good for meeting girls especially since I could do the vacuuming in about 1 of the 2 hours, leaving 1 hour for socializing on the clock.


Later years I worked 20-25 hours/week in auto parts store. More interesting for work, not as good for the socializing aspects

 

[cathy63]

One way to lower one's cost in attending college is getting a job in the school cafeteria. I washed dishes for several years while attending college. I could eat for free and eat as much as I want.

DH and I both did this as well; in fact we met while working at the dining commons. However, by the time our DD started college in 2011, this type of job was no longer available to kids whose parents could pay tuition (according to the FAFSA). She found that almost all on-campus jobs in the dining commons, dorms, library, computer labs, etc, were reserved for work-study students as part of their financial aid packages. The only on-campus jobs open to her were those funded by professors' research grants or department budgets.

 

[HarveyS]

My DD had no problem getting a job at the on-campus bookstore her fall semester freshman year (fall 2016) at a large state school. She learned why pretty soon after starting. Lots of turnover as the staff was less than easy to work with. She toughed it out all semester then switched to a job in the dorm watching the door/signing out pingpong paddles, etc. Both jobs were available to all students regardless of FAFSA. (we did not fill out FAFSA).

 

[Philliefan33]

At DD’s college, anyone who worked in the dining hall had to have at least the mid-tier meal plan. I guess ARA (who ran the dining hall) was not in the business of feeding workers for free.

 

[Brat]

My DH was a 'House Boy' in a sorority. His job was helping in the dining room. He ate for free and traded skills with the sorority members, for example, a gal with an Education major would type his papers in trade for his drawing skills.

His senior year he was his fraternity house manager. That job got him free board.

He worked his way through college.

 

[fasteddie911]

Congrats and I think your son made the right choice. I think the emotional aspect of college is large and can cause some to make poor decisions. Pretty much everyone I knew "grieved" at some point in the college application, mostly for not getting into their reach dream school. At the time it seemed like the most important decision in ones' life but as years go by it's become immaterial. Nowadays I don't even know where most people went to college nor do I care.

 

[ocean view]

I’m back again with more news...last night DS was offered admission at UCSC from the waiting list. He was very excited. Although he said he was fine to go to CSUMB, he also said that if Santa Cruz came through with an offer he would prefer to go there. So this evening he pushed the button to make it so. As I said he is excited, more of the reaction that I was hoping for previously.

We are a little concerned about getting housing since it is passed the housing deadline and this school is short on housing, but fingers crossed, it will all work out. For the school year just ending, they asked professors and other staff to take students into their homes to help make up the shortfall.

I think we will wait a few days before notifying the other school, just to make sure all is kosher with the UC.