Could the FI of FIRE be good enough?

[azanon]

As a young dreamer (33), I find myself looking more forward to just knowing I've financially got it made for the rest of my life than I do just being able to retire. In fact, I cant say for sure i'd be happy enough just being FI.

Seems like it'd make work a lot more bearable knowing that I dont have to worry about layoffs/RIFs, pissing the boss off, downsizing, or just fear getting fired for whatever reason. I would think having that cloud lifted off just might make work bearable. If i wanted to, i could also be just as productive as i wanted to be then because what are they going to do about it.... fire me?

Just wondering how many others have FI more as their #1 goal rather than RE.

 

[brewer12345]

I am enough years from FI that I have no way of knowing what I will want to do when it becomes a reality. I strongly suspect that I will prefer not to bust my hump, but lots of things could change between now and then. I imagine that if I am doing a job I enjoy, then it might be the case that I keep working for a while. OTOH, if the job has gotten old, I very well might prefer to spend my time travelling, volunteering, pursuing my hobbies, etc. Its always nice to have options...

 

[yakers]

Well, we'll see. I always thought that getting FI was "jerk proofing" my work life. As I like my job I am not in a big hurry to leave. But I become retirement elligible in October. Out of the last 25 years I had 4 where I worked for a jerk and if that happens again I can now just leave. But currently I really like the position I am in.
But here is the interesting thing, an experiment in psychology , maybe. I have seen a few folks mellow when FI and others get worse to work with. Overall once FI it is not likely you ( or at least, I) will want to work unless the work is really personally rewarding. If I were to suddenly win the lotto I assume I would still have an interest in space and science but somehow I probably would not show up for work. I do expect my volunteer life to grow in retirement but thats a diffferent story.

 

[RockMiner]

I'm guessing that this is not such a popular idea here. Some might say "what is the point of FI if not RE?"

Personally I do find my stress level moderating as financial goals draw closer. While this is a welcome benefit, it doesn't really reduce my desire to RE.

It's like eating a great steak...satisfying, but what about that blackberry cobbler?

 

[azanon]

Some might say "what is the point of FI if not RE?"

In addition to the reasons I already listed in my initial post? (see above).  Additional reasons would be so maybe you could spend (without worry) 100% of your realized income on whatever you want without saving anymore.  

Consumption might be the enemy to being able to obtain FI or RE, but once you've got it made, if you're still enjoying your job, then what's so wrong with just continuing to work and increasing consumption?   Surely having the finer things of life can't be THAT bad can it, especially if you can afford it?

I know this is the Retire early homepage, but I think being financially independent is of interest to the majority here, one being retired or not.

 

[eyeonFI]

FI is my primary goal. I expect to RE, but probably not as soon as I possibly could. For the most part I like my current job - the main downside of it is the stress over maybe losing it. I'm an untenured professor, so if I lose this job I have to either pick up and move to a different city/state or change professions - or, see if I can live really cheap for a while and make a *very* early retirement work . That thought has me obsessively checking my portfolio more and more frequently as the up-or-out date draws nearer...

 

[newellcr]

"Consumption might be the enemy to being able to obtain FI or RE, but once you've got it made, if you're still enjoying your job, then what's so wrong with just continuing to work and increasing consumption? "

Personally, I like the idea. We'll see if it's for me or not. I suspect that many of the ERs faced this type of decision but approached it from the standpoint of "emergency money" or bullet proofing the portfolio rather than a pure consumption idea.

Interesting.

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Martha]

"Consumption might be the enemy to being able to obtain FI or RE, but once you've got it made, if you're still enjoying your job, then what's so wrong with just continuing to work and increasing consumption? "

Personally, I like the idea. We'll see if it's for me or not. I suspect that many of the ERs faced this type of decision but approached it from the standpoint of "emergency money" or bullet proofing the portfolio rather than a pure consumption idea.

Interesting.

Cheers,

Chris

On the cusp of ER, I have continued to work part time for the purpose of bullet proofing the portfolio.

I returned to work after being gone a little more then a month. I am having a hard time with it--I find myself tending towards procrastination. Unless the market totally blows this year, odds are I will be done by year end.

 

[retire@40]

On the surface it would appear that FI is the first goal. But it is really the means to get to the true goal of ER which is to be able to do whatever you want whenever you want.

There is a saying that says, "To have knowledge and not to use that knowledge is the same as not having that knowledge in the first place."

The same holds true for FI. If you work hard to achieve FI and then don't utilize the fruits of your labor, it defeats the purpose of being FI. Sure, being FI is a good backup in case you lose your job, but that should be an indirect benefit, not the main purpose.

 

[RockMiner]

Hey, everybody looks at things a little differently. Achieving FI in order to feel better about spending more money is an interesting idea.

For me, work has become mostly a means to an end though it certainly didn't start out that way. If I still enjoyed working, RE wouldn't be my goal either.

Sometimes you hear about people who win the lottery yet they intend to keep doing the same boring job, live in the same double wide etc. This I don't get.
What is the point of buying the ticket in the first place if you don't intend to enjoy the wealth? Talk about no imagination...

 

[parnass]

Well, we'll see. I always thought that getting FI was "jerk proofing" my work life.....

I will try to phrase this politely. Some of my former coworkers used to say that the true test of whether one was rich was whether you could relieve yourself on your boss's desk. (No, I didn't work at TI.)

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

FI without RE does have some benefits. If you started your own low profit but enjoyable business or did something you really liked but couldnt count on for steady income.

As far as "jerk proofing" a regular job....

I considered off and on the prospects of going back to any of my old jobs and what the outcome would be. Despite not "needing the paycheck" I think you'd still have to act more or less the same way or you'd be on your way out asap. That might be ok from the get go but after 12 jobs in 3 years you might become unemployable.

I was pondering the responses I'd give when the next go-go VP told me to do something in half the time for half the money when his motivation to request that was based on nothing more than an automatic gesture. And me chuckling and saying "No, and stop asking me to do things in half the time and for half the money without any reason to do that. I dont need the stress and I dont feel like producing crap today". (sound of a cannon firing, and my carcass hitting the parking lot more or less near where my car is parked).

 

[BigMoneyJim]

I probably fit no one's definition of FI, but I'm recently debt free, have my nest egg in place and have no financial commitments beyond month-to-month. My expenses are low enough that I can cover them with a much lower paying job if it came to that. So in a way I do have it made.

I find things at work stress me less. I want to move anyway, so if they fire me I get to move much sooner, and I won't regress financially. Not that I think I'm in danger of being fired, but it's a stress-evading mental exercise.

On the other hand I keep thinking of better things I have to do, and why don't I just go do them since I don't need this income right now?

I can't imagine myself liking a job so much I keep working at it. I feel lucky to have enjoyed my jobs so far, but they get quite old and boring after 3-5 years.

 

[Cut-Throat]

And don't forget, once you are FI, and you feel like telling your Boss to F**k Off, You'll be unemployed anyway, at the Boss's choice.

So you might as well quit on your own and get on with your life!

 

[preben]

I turned FI recently and while the "I do this for fun" thought does make the job easier to handle - I am mostly doing it to get some padding in the budget.

I am at peak earning years right now and 1-2 years added corresponds to 10 years or more of desperate work later on should something during the next 65 years of FIRE go wrong....

$1M is FI to me. $2M and I will jump no matter what - the area in between depends on how I feel about work.

Cheers!

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I agree with C-T, and BTW parnass, rich or not you would not have wanted to "relieve yourself" on my desk, unless you had a death wish

JG

 

[laurence]

Azanon,

Good thread, I totally identify with your thoughts about FI lifting the cloud off of work. I have trouble thinking beyond FI and getting to RE, somehow it feels like Ferrari shopping before I know my lotto numbers are a winner

Still, while I enjoy the job, the lack of flexible hours would probably get me to truly retire...

 

[lazyday]

Additional reasons would be so maybe you could spend (without worry) 100% of your realized income on whatever you want without saving anymore.

I'd be afraid of getting used to that kind of spending level. Then, if wanted to RE, would have to cut back to your swr.

However, depending on family and health situation, I could see deciding to spend a minimum of something like 2% of the portfolio a year... and if you continue to work, the portfolio is added to, allowing more consumption. In other words, if the portfolio is $2M, you get to spend 40K even if you don't need to spend that much.

If the work is at all enjoyable and/or the money is good enough, I think it could make great sense to continue to work after FI. A larger portfolio allows for a better lifestyle and/or a better chance of surviving the unexpected.

I think the main goal should be happiness. For many people, that could include work.

 

[lazyday]

$1M is FI to me. $2M and I will jump no matter what - the area in between depends on how I feel about work.

Wonder what I would do if hit $2M and had a huge salary.
I think I would stay awhile.
Would be nice to be able to RE and afford to live almost anywhere, even if had kids. Get the best doctors. Eat the best healthy, tasty, well prepared food. Travel. Not penny pinch so much.

Ahh, I don't dream like that too much.
I'm happy as I am living on little, but having freedom.
If really high pay became available to me though, I'd take it, for a while. Not sure what my cutoff would be for when to stop.

 

[uncledrz]

FI has allowed professional/business activities to take a different place, have a different significance.

FI came over a 2-3 year period. As the kids became independent and the responsibility there lessend, and we came to the realization that we were FI (this didn't happen overnight with a sudden flash), the pressure came off. It allowed me to cut back to part time, take the matters that I wanted, turn away that which I didn't want, and spend time on other activities or just goofing off.

Yes, FI is very important. Is it enough? At some time it clearly will not be, but I does allow Freedom and Control.

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Wonder what I would do if hit $2M and had a huge salary.
I think I would stay awhile.
Would be nice to be able to RE and afford to live almost anywhere, even if had kids. Get the best doctors. Eat the best healthy, tasty, well prepared food. Travel. Not penny pinch so much.

You can have that set of 'luxuries', within some limits, on less than $2M. Obviously you wont be able to afford a waterfront hawaiian estate with maids, butlers and Emeril Lagasse chasing herds of live lobsters around the house.

Sticking around just to up the ante though can be problematic.

I was once engaged to a gal who worked at the same company I did. Sort of a secretive person, which is what ended up sinking the relationship. About four months after we moved in together I noticed her stock options "roundup" sheet laying on the coffee table and had a gander. At that moment she was worth roughly $5M. Big eyed I said "Hey...between yours and mine we should take the money, pay the taxes and retire rich right now!". Her response "I dont think its enough...I want to travel a lot".

In the meanwhile the stock has dropped 80% and is now hovering at less than 25% what it was. She kept every share. I kept none, diversified and RE'ed on a lot less than that original number would have been had we both pulled the ripcord right then and there.

She's still working. Hates it. I dont see her travelling a lot either.

 

[Sparky]

DH and I retired over a year ago. He left work 1 year earlier and I worked part time (3 days per week) for the health insurance and a bit of extra money. I figured we'd do that for a few years.

Then I got laid off. On the drive home that day, I thought, if not now, when?

It took awhile to figure things out - health insurance, safe withdrawals, etc. We got a catastophic policy with a $5,000 deductible.

The difference between one of us working part time and both being RE'd is like night and day.

 

[lazyday]

th,

That story hurts. Glad you made FIRE, though.

In my opinion, it sounds like the biggest financial mistake your ex made wasn't that she didn't quit, it was not diversifying. Even if she only sold half, after taxes she would be FI, whether she knew it then or not. She must really have regrets.


I agree that a good life can be had for under $2M. Under 1M, even under .5M depending on situation and location.

It's this line from Ben I'm thinking of: "1-2 years added corresponds to 10 years or more of desperate work later on"

I'm sure Ben knows what's good for him--it's just that if I'm not misunderstanding the above line, and were making that much, I'd have to truly hate my work to stop at 2M. Would love to RE a little later on a bigger pot.

(Sorry hope this doesn't embarass you Ben. )

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

You're 100% right, not diversifying is the biggest mistake. Note that the company culture lionized those who proclaimed "...and I've never sold a single share!".

I sold every year at what I felt was a favorable price point, and plowed the proceeds into a diversified asset mix. When I wasnt playing roulette with flipping a few hundred $k worth of QQQ's on the little dips during the Days Of Insanity. I was considered an idiot by my fellow investors at the company for 7 straight years. Then all of a sudden I became a genius without doing anything differently.

Guess that goes to show that sometimes it takes a REALLY long time for the 'right strategy' to really show its colors.

There was a second mistake made though. She doesnt love the work. It eats her entire personal life. I had to make a rule at one point that the $^%#ing laptop didnt get opened after 7pm or on weekends. When we went on vacation she smuggled her blackberry and pager into her luggage. She had the opportunity to end all of that, definitely had the FI part well in hand...but the "just a little more" or "it isnt enough" worries kept her at the helm.

 

[Cut-Throat]

It took awhile to figure things out - health insurance, safe withdrawals, etc. We got a catastophic policy with a $5,000 deductible.

Sparky,

Can I ask what the policy cost you? I will need to go this route in a few years.