Could there be any better reason to ER?

[ERD50]

... Of course "Joes" philosphy is consistent with the new directive that your PTO bank needs to be burned down to 120 hours max by the end of the year.

Maybe I'm missing something, but, if you need to burn down your Personal Time Off or lose it, then... isn't it kind of a moot point?

Until next year - Joe may be gone by then.

Our mega-corp didn't really have a policy for personal time - it was all at the manager's discretion. That sucked, one dept would be lax, another real strict - no rhyme or reason. Tough on managers and workers. But also, we never got to 'bank' it, only vacation time could be banked, up to 120 hours, I think.

-ERD50

 

[Spanky]

It's amazing that companies think that working overtime for an extended period of time is productive. Putting extra hours may be counterproductive because of stress, fatigue and burnout.

 

[Gone4Good]

It's amazing that companies think that working overtime for an extended period of time is productive. Putting extra hours may be counterproductive because of stress, fatigue and burnout.

Some employees thrive on it.

Some companies pay for it.

When you marry the two, it is very effective.

When you have the second, but not the first, its ER.

When you have neither, its time to look for another job.

 

[Average Joe]

Dear Joe:

Re: Culture of Entitlement

Thank you for your memo regarding the above. Unfortunately, you appear to have bought into the Culture of Entitlement yourself. You believe you are entitled to own my life.

Meadbh nailed it. Talk about an entitlement culture - what is your company fighting a war or something? When you joined up did you have to swear an oath to defend the companies charter against all competitors?

 

[crazy connie]

I see 46 replies, from about 20 people, in six hours. I think that indicates this topic hits a nerve.

I've been in a very similar situation. The most useful comment I can make is: "Fortunately, I was in a position to ER."

(a possibly unrelated tangent: I talked to one of my former co-workers today and he said "Would you be interested in a little consulting? We're a little short-handed and have a short project that fits your experience.")

Yes it hit the nerve in me. I did many 60 to 80 work weeks as both blue collar and management. I did not do it alone and usually felt appreciated. When it became standard to be giving all the time without a sincere thank-you...
That was when I felt under appreciated and pulled the ER plug.

I pity those with no options. If we had true portable/universal healthcare and could get comparable wage packages, then the nasty places to work with lack of employee respect would not be able to function.

 

[Goonie]

My current boss has started to be a schmuck toward my fellow inmates employees the last week or so. He hasn't been schmucky to me, since he finally realized that as of 3:30pm today, I no longer HAVE to show up on the job, or put up with his BS. Vacation, personal days, and comp-time can carry me through until my April parole FIRE date.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so this picture is for all the schmucks in the world!

 

[Helena]

I know you are all working long hours and giving it your all, but I need everyone on my team to help me change the entitlement culture at our company so we can be successful.

Coming to a third world near you.

At my company the women at the call center
have their bathroom break timed... they get
7 minutes of bathroom breaks per week...
Yes, you heard it right... PER WEEK !

If one takes more than 7 minutes total bathroom
time per week, it affects their paycheck.

Most of the women are young single mothers who put
up with this slavery because they really need the job.

 

[Cb]

Coming to a third world near you.

At my company the women at the call center
have their bathroom break timed... they get
7 minutes of bathroom breaks per week...
Yes, you heard it right... PER WEEK !

If one takes more than 7 minutes total bathroom
time per week, it affects their paycheck.

Most of the women are young single mothers who put
up with this slavery because they really need the job.

Helena, I think the responsible thing to do would be to call a newspaper or email them from a throwaway email account like Hotmail if you can substantiate that.

Cb

 

[Helena]

Also, those of us who punch a time clock... or
actually a computer time clock... get rounded
off to the nearest 15 minutes.... but the company
manipulates it so you can't round off the time to
benefit you... only to benefit them.

Also, the company plans business meetings
to interfere with break times... so many don't
get breaks.

Several times I tried to call the labor board to see
if any of this was legal... but everytime I called
I got a busy signal.

 

[laurence]

The VP that took over DW's department 2 years ago was of a similar kind. She drove out all the employees that she didn't bring with her, and half the ones she did! We didn't plan this, but DW left to take care of Tori and offered to consult part time from home. Ended up that as much as the VP HATES paying DW the good consulting rate ( it's good, but not outrageous) she can't get rid of her because she loses employees within months of hiring. It is working out well for us, but I'm shocked management doesn't put the pieces together (every employee gave HR an earful after they left, and the VP and her cronie underling manager are being "monitored" by HR to no avail). She'll probably find another company to jump over to before she can get fired. Meanwhile DW will take tasks and complete them from home for twice my hourly rate...

 

[Helena]

Helena, I think the responsible thing to do would be to call a newspaper or email them from a throwaway email account like Hotmail
if you can substantiate that.

Cb

I couldn't believe it either when my co-workers told me.
I thought it was 7 minutes a day... but it is 7 minutes a
week... then we all went to an adherence meeting and
it was confirmed.

When checking on the internet, I found employees
ranting about having to schedule their bathroom time
at lunch or regular breaks... here is one example where
the employee doesn't even get 7 minutes a week for
the bathroom !

http://callcentreredemption.blogspot.com/2005/08/dignity-now-has-price-17000-month.html

 

[Nords]

He has only been here 3 weeks, so I do not think he knows if there are any abusers or not. His email was only sent to his 5 direct reports which includes me. We are expected to carry the message down the food chain. Joe is the new CFO hired by the BOD to cut costs, and position the company for an M&A or IPO in the next 12-24 months. His incentive is a nice equity package that will fund another 6 months of fly fishing and maybe his own ER. The hell with the rest of us.

So, Hydro, have you forwarded his e-mail to Scott Adams? Maybe Dogbert needs to mock this entitlement policy in a future strip...

 

[wstu32]

absolutely insane and board line illegal if not UNETHICAL

i am a boss and tell my employees these things...

"~we all need to take a day off now and then... totally acceptable. burn out makes you extremely unproductive ...lets avoid it.
~family first, so do not miss school plays, teachers conference and get home early enough for family time
~if you work o/t put it on your time cards. i will not respect you any more or less if you work over 40 hours and only put 40 hours."

i have climbed the corporate latter and have adhered to these rules and it did not hinder my success ONE bit. 8)

 

[W2R]

Just received this email from my new boss (CFO). He could not have provided any more incentive to accelerate my early retirement. Could not be a better reason then this to LBYM and get the hell out of the corporate grind.

Joe's Comp Time Philosophy

Team-

I'm not a fan of regular comp time.

My take is that exempt employees are paid to get the job done and that could take up to 10-12 hours per day on some days, maybe more. If I work 60 hours by Thursday night and take Friday off, it's PTO from my perspective, not a given comp day. If I work 60 hours each week for some time, then I might ask my boss to through me an occasional bone, but no expectations.

I know you are all working long hours and giving it your all, but I need everyone on my team to help me change the entitlement culture at our company so we can be successful.

In the words of our president "it's gonna be hard work"... but I'm confident that we can be successful.

Please spread the folklore and thank you for your support, Joe

This is so bad. Frank is going through a similar thing - - he worked eleven 10-hour days in a row, and was scheduled to have yesterday off. He was called at home after 4 hours off and was asked "what kind of game he was playing" for taking his scheduled day off, and told to drop everything (he had plans to have dinner with his father and me) and rush out to work. He is not a happy camper today.

He is a senior engineer at a large aerospace facility. This sort of thing makes me glad that I did not use my electrical engineering degree to take an engineering job (instead, used it as a basis for graduate degrees and career in physical oceanography). This is such bad management. Although I realize all companies do not have this "corporate culture", far too many do. Ultimately such practices discourage people from considering engineering as a career.

Like you, Frank is planning to ER as soon as possible. If it gets unbearable before then he may decide to change jobs, but he has less than 3 years to go so right now his plan is to carry on.

 

[Moemg]

12 hour days
no Breaks
occasional lunches
swing shifts
having to watch the cost of supplies
no comp time
mandatory overtime

Welcome to Nursing !

 

[Dawg52]

Although I disagree with some of the decisions my boss makes as a manager, I have to say he is the complete opposite of Joe. He has never told anyone that you have to work extra hours. But most of us know we have a job to do and you do what it takes to get the job done. I have worked the last 3 weekends and will go to the office later this morning, but I don't hold it against my boss. I am paid well so I do my job.

I'm also retiring in a few weeks.

 

[2B]

I think all you whiners need to buck up, shut up and do your jobs.

I hate to admit it but I was one eager wage slave that happily did my 7-12's during unit turnarounds and startups. I routinely worked 10 to 12 hour days and was available 24x7. That was the way up. Pay your dues and someday you could be the big guy. I went through several jobs where I quit and several where I was put out on the street before I realized the great scam. Once you realize you aren't in line for the brass ring, you also realize it ain't worth it just for the crappy job you have.

After my last unplanned career change in 2002, I now have a job where I get paid OT (only straight time) and can take unpaid time off after I burn my 23 annual PTO days. Until this position, I was always in the expected, unpaid overtime jobs. I can't believe how wonderful this current arrangement is. In addition to being paid for OT, there are absolutely no office in-fighting or politicing (that I've seen, anyway). The funniest part is that my current position is a lowly grunt; and with the very small amount of OT I got last year, I actually made more than my last full year as a "senior manager."

Since the employment market has recovered I'm now getting calls about the kink of jobs I used to have. I have no intention of leaving here until FIRE time.

 

[Meadbh]

I think all you whiners need to buck up, shut up and do your jobs.

I hate to admit it but I was one eager wage slave that happily did my 7-12's during unit turnarounds and startups. I routinely worked 10 to 12 hour days and was available 24x7. That was the way up. Pay your dues and someday you could be the big guy.

2B, that was your choice, and good luck to you. For many people, it is not their choice.

To the posters who are not allowed breaks, check the employment legislation in your state or province. I do recall that a diabetic gas pump attendant who was not allowed to take a break for her entire 8 hour shift (!) brought a successful lawsuit against her employer in my province some years ago. Here are some details from the employment standards relevant to the case:

"An employer cannot force you to work overtime, unless it is a condition of employment. You must be given 1 day off work in every 7 days. For every 5 consecutive hours that you work, your employer must allow you at least 30 minutes unpaid meal break. The employer does not have to pay you for that time. Employers are not obligated to provide coffee breaks but some do."

Finally, consider the dangers of overwork. Not only is it hazardous to your health, but it may be hazardous to other people, too. This has now been well proven in the case of nurses and
doctors.

 

[Spanky]

After my last unplanned career change in 2002, I now have a job where I get paid OT (only straight time) and can take unpaid time off after I burn my 23 annual PTO days. Until this position, I was always in the expected, unpaid overtime jobs. I can't believe how wonderful this current arrangement is. In addition to being paid for OT, there are absolutely no office in-fighting or politicing (that I've seen, anyway). The funniest part is that my current position is a lowly grunt; and with the very small amount of OT I got last year, I actually made more than my last full year as a "senior manager."

So why work so hard to get ahead?

 

[2B]

So why work so hard to get ahead?

I agree. I would describe my earlier post more along the lines of confessing my sins. I'm ready to RE but I would like to put the FI in front of it before I do. My current means of accumulating wealth is so much more pleasant than my earlier attempts. If it works out like I hope, I will slowly start taking more and more unpaid time off while keeping the medical benefits. Eventually, they will catch on and send me off into FIRE.

 

[WRBT]

This thread makes me feel fortunate.

I've been a software engineer for over 15 years now and have always worked at places where 8 hour day is the norm. Sometimes when the tradeshow is coming up or the fires happen it's longer, but just as often nobody cares if bail to take dog to vet, get on the road to Vegas early on Friday afternoon, or meet the plumber at home for a few hours.

I've also always worked at places with flexible hours... some work 7:30 - 4:30, some 9-6, whatever.

I guess it helps that with the exception of 2001-2004 timeframe it's been pretty much a seller's market from the job seeker perspective here, but sheesh even the thought of being expected to work 10 hour days makes me queasy.

 

[WRBT]

Also - I'm the lead now of our little software group here (the awkward phase of peer to boss is still dying out) and made it clear my expectations are similar to wstu32.

Stay focused and work hard when you're here, call me if you're going to be in after 9:00 am, and I sure won't be the guy putting a red mark in your file for sneaking out to the occasional happy hour with the hot chicks in marketing at 3:30 on Friday.

It works both ways if I do need them to be here at 6:30 am for an important East coast call, come in on Sunday to play server roulette, or fly to Japan on short notice they're always on the ball.

It's a balance, and I'll never understand the Joes of the world.

 

[Meadbh]

This thread makes me feel fortunate.

I've been a software engineer for over 15 years now and have always worked at places where 8 hour day is the norm. Sometimes when the tradeshow is coming up or the fires happen it's longer, but just as often nobody cares if bail to take dog to vet, get on the road to Vegas early on Friday afternoon, or meet the plumber at home for a few hours.

I've also always worked at places with flexible hours... some work 7:30 - 4:30, some 9-6, whatever.

I guess it helps that with the exception of 2001-2004 timeframe it's been pretty much a seller's market from the job seeker perspective here, but sheesh even the thought of being expected to work 10 hour days makes me queasy.

You are VERY fortunate indeed!

As a medical professional, I have had a professional obligation to provide 24/7 service in various forms, including 7 days straight (as an attending, including ~90-100 hours per week at the hospital and the remainder on call) and, as a resident, in-hospital, first on call stretches of up to 60 hours).

Nowadays, residents in Canada are not allowed to provide patient care for more than 28 hours straight o), though they may study or do research.

Now that I am a boss (of people who are not residents) I take great care to ensure that my staff do not work unreasonable hours. On occasion, they may work a long day to meet a deadline, but I encourage them to take corresponding time off and to take personal time for good reasons. People who are treated well will produce better work and will be fiercely loyal. Everyone wins in the end.

 

[DangerMouse]

I'm another one who spent their Saturday in the office. It isn't anyone saying that I must work extra hours and not getting paid. The reality is there is too much to do and not enough time in normal office hours. I could choose not to go in on my own time, but then the stress levels next week would be incredible as I would be so far behind. I probably achieved more in 5 hours at the office today then I would in a normal 8-10 hour day. It is so productive working on weekends without telephone/email/people interruptions, so much more gets done.

 

[DangerMouse]

I should add that I am a Manager and when required I do ask my staff to work overtime. However, they are all hourly employees who enjoy a few extra $'s. I never put any pressure on anyone to come in if they don't want to and never hold it against them at review time.