Custody/divorce

[Danmar]

Nobody wins in divorce court. Except the lawyers.

Remember it's about the kids. Not proving which parent is better. Not making the other parent look bad.

Remember in this land of freedom, we own nothing. The court can and will take whatever they want from your son.

Sorry, this is opening up some old wounds. My heart goes out to your son. All I can say is take the high road, do (and say) what he knows is right for the kids, don't focus on material things, don't get into petty arguments. Try to see things from the kids' point of view, which means they should never be in the middle of their parents' disagreements. It'll pay off in the end, in ways no-one can even imagine now.

Good luck!!

Totally agree. I went through a terrible divorce. Throughout, my objective was always and only to maintain my relationship with my daughter. It was very difficult and at times I wanted to give up and say “have a nice life” but I just couldn’t. It was the most difficult thing I ever did. Have a very close relationship with her now, 25 years later.

My advice to your son. Do what’s best for the kids and be willing to pay almost anything to accomplish this. Never lie or mislead, no name calling or bad mouthing. Realize you are at disadvantage but don’t be bitter. It will be difficult but in the end worth it. Always take the high road.

 

[EastWest Gal]

They tried mediation, with no results. She has become vindictive to the point she doesn't want him to have any custody. Crazy part is for the last ten years he was stay at home dad.

Won't he be eligible for some alimony then? He's the one who sacrificed his career, after all.

 

[Pilot2013]

I dont know a single person or child who has this arrangement anymore. 50%/50% split, joint custody, no child support, seems to be the norm now.

Split custody? No child support?? Where are you living?

Adultery doesn't even exclude someone from getting Alimony. In some states, for the remainder of their life still. The system is completely stupid...

 

[CaliKid]

I hate to hear these stories. I am very sorry and wish your family luck.

If he hires an attorney I suggest an experienced board certified or certified specialist. Someone who has passed the second bar exam just in family law. A good one's hourly rate may be exorbitant ($500/hr+/-) but they may be able to fix things much quicker. Also, of course one's hourly rate means nothing as it more matters how honest they are. Sad but true.

Again, best of luck!

 

[Pilot2013]

OK, since we're talking about lawyers now...

Hire the meanest, most cut-throat attorney you can find. Preferably a female.

Nice guys finish last. It's not just a saying; in court, it's reality. Your side has to totally disregard reality and civility. Truth is the first casualty.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. But it IS harsh. The opposing attorney will use every negative male stereotype to paint the husband as an a-hole, and every nurturing stereotype to paint the mother as a long-suffering saint.

A man has no defense against that, without seeming to prove the stereotypes. Get angry at the lies? You're short-tempered and possibly abusive. Remain stoic during the lies? You're a cold fish who has no emotions and can't be nurturing. See how it works?

That's why you need a pit bull for an attorney. Someone who can say things you could never get away with. Someone not afraid to fight fire with fire.

I recommended a female attorney not only because they can deflect the male stereotypes better, but because frankly many of them are much more driven to prove themselves.

+1000

You can always back off, but it's hard to get up with a 1000lb weight on you.

 

[Silver]

This reminds me of some previous threads discussing the pros and cons of having children. Not a helpful comment when it's already to late, but forewarned is forearmed.

 

[Carpediem]

OK, since we're talking about lawyers now...

Hire the meanest, most cut-throat attorney you can find. Preferably a female.

+1001 My 'nice attorney' was about to get me screwed in alimony discussions and I almost allowed it to happen. Then I woke up and fired 'nice attorney' and hired 'bad a$$ attorney' (female) and the discussions quickly turned in my favor. It was well worth it.

 

[ponyboy]

Divorces are a huge business.

There is absolutely no incentive in lawyers helping you come to a conclusion. The longer it draws out the more money they make. Its amazing how blind people become when they get divorced.

Imagine loving someone for a decade or so then all of the sudden hating them to the point you no longer care about your life...you're willing to spend every penny you have just to make the others persons life miserable. You'll spend everything just to "win" an argument you ultimately lose anyway. Humans are so strange sometimes.

 

[dvalley]

OK, since we're talking about lawyers now...

Hire the meanest, most cut-throat attorney you can find. Preferably a female.

Nice guys finish last. It's not just a saying; in court, it's reality. Your side has to totally disregard reality and civility. Truth is the first casualty.

Sorry if that sounds harsh. But it IS harsh. The opposing attorney will use every negative male stereotype to paint the husband as an a-hole, and every nurturing stereotype to paint the mother as a long-suffering saint.

A man has no defense against that, without seeming to prove the stereotypes. Get angry at the lies? You're short-tempered and possibly abusive. Remain stoic during the lies? You're a cold fish who has no emotions and can't be nurturing. See how it works?

That's why you need a pit bull for an attorney. Someone who can say things you could never get away with. Someone not afraid to fight fire with fire.

I recommended a female attorney not only because they can deflect the male stereotypes better, but because frankly many of them are much more driven to prove themselves.

x2 - I didn't want to write the whole novel about my situation but this is exactly what I ended up doing (including getting a female attorney) after trying to 'take the high road' and getting slammed at every turn with the lazy ass male attorneys, while their side kept getting meaner and embolded. In the end I spent too much on the attorney fees but looking back after 10+yrs later I'm glad I stood my ground for what was fair, fought the fight rather than rolling over and if I have to do it over again I'd do it again.

My female attorney told me the divorce process is strictly a business transaction based on the state guidelines not an emotional one.

 

[Danmar]

Divorces are a huge business.

There is absolutely no incentive in lawyers helping you come to a conclusion. The longer it draws out the more money they make. Its amazing how blind people become when they get divorced.

I don’t buy your argument. Most good family law attorneys are booked far into the future and many turn clients away. They do have an incentive for satisfaction as word of mouth is their primary marketing tool. My attorneys were excellent.

Your argument could be used for almost any professional ie doctor, dentist, plumber, electrician, etc. Doesn’t work that way.

 

[ponyboy]

I don’t buy your argument. Most good family law attorneys are booked far into the future and many turn clients away. They do have an incentive for satisfaction as word of mouth is their primary marketing tool. My attorneys were excellent.

Your argument could be used for almost any professional ie doctor, dentist, plumber, electrician, etc. Doesn’t work that way.

Thats a poor argument. In all these professions you mentioned...there isnt someone on the other end prolonging the process. They cant lean on the fact the other person isnt willing to compromise in any of these you mentioned.

For every "good" family law attorney there are a dozen "not good" ones. Dont confuse the two. Everyone gets divorced now...its no longer shameful so its not worth peoples time to work things out. With the amount of divorces happening they no longer have to rely on word of mouth feedback. They couldnt care less. Its a honey hole of a profession.

 

[Pilot2013]

I don’t buy your argument. Most good family law attorneys are booked far into the future and many turn clients away. They do have an incentive for satisfaction as word of mouth is their primary marketing tool. My attorneys were excellent.

Your argument could be used for almost any professional ie doctor, dentist, plumber, electrician, etc. Doesn’t work that way.

Wrong.
1.) They have a captive customer base
2.) The fact they are "booked out in to the future" says you can't wait on them, unless you are that "vindictive a$$) that plans it, blindsiding the spouse

 

[Brat]

I agree with CaptTom.

 

[kcowan]

My objective was 50/50 spit. Kids out of the house. SAHM. I agreed to 10 years of alimony. Took 3 years to re-establish relations with the kids.

My advice would be to try and be as flexible as you can while fighting off attempts to take advantage of you. After 22 years, it is just a detail from my past.

 

[Danmar]

Thats a poor argument. In all these professions you mentioned...there isnt someone on the other end prolonging the process. They cant lean on the fact the other person isnt willing to compromise in any of these you mentioned.

For every "good" family law attorney there are a dozen "not good" ones. Dont confuse the two. Everyone gets divorced now...its no longer shameful so its not worth peoples time to work things out. With the amount of divorces happening they no longer have to rely on word of mouth feedback. They couldnt care less. Its a honey hole of a profession.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[sheehs1]

Having been thru this albeit almost 28 years ago, I agree with the advice of the cut throat female attorney. Having said that, i hope you and your son realize that the courts and the law were made for reasonable people. If someone wants to be unreasonable it can be hell.

If it is at all possible....is there any way your son can approach his soon to be ex-wife and layout the scenario of what will happen? Example: I can see we are both going to pay "X" in legal fees. Don't you think it better that the money went to our childrens welfare. We are making the lawyers rich! What if 6 months down the road we have each paid $25K in legal fees and it's not over?- what would you say then? Can't we find common ground here that is acceptable to both..etc...etc.." or...has he already tried this

I don't know where you are in the process but typically after a few legal bills start coming in, people get a tad bit more reasonable.

In this situation both parties go in as equals. It doesn't matter what she says or what he says. It is your typical, "He said, she said"...so the courts have no choice but to order things like "Home Studies, Psch evaluations, etc. The courts would MUCH rather the parties settle their differences.

To win custody something has to tip the scales. I doubt she has it. But she can put him thru the ringer.

If he doesn't have the money, have him ask his lawyer the question about what to do. Some delay tactics might be in order here.

 

[CaptTom]

Having been thru this albeit almost 28 years ago, I agree with the advice of the cut throat female attorney.

Thanks to all who have backed me up on that radical statement. Anyone who hasn't been there may judge us harshly, so it's good to have back-up.

Having said that, i hope you and your son realize that the courts and the law were made for reasonable people. If someone wants to be unreasonable it can be hell.

Truer words were never spoken.

Another way to put it is, the courts assume everyone is being honest and rational. Someone who is comfortable not doing so has a huge advantage.

Despite the doom and gloom stories, there IS hope. Sometimes the system works, even (maybe especially) if you take the high road. I could write a book psychoanalyzing all the players in the family court system; their motivations, strengths and weaknesses. But good things can only happen if you understand what you're up against. You can't win if you don't accept the rules of the game, however rigged it may be.

 

[Danmar]

Yes, it will be very difficult if your X in a divorce is unreasonable, vindictive, or dishonest. I certainly experienced all that. Took me 15 years of very bitter litigation to “finalize” it. Even in a “friendly” divorce the deck is generally stacked against the man. All you can do is take the high road. You will very lkely lose your kids otherwise. So you have a choice-keep the relationship with the kid(s) but at a high cost, or losing the kid(s)at a high cost.

Might help to get an aggressive female lawyer. In my case I went to trial and appeal with my first lawyer which took 10 years. Lost every decision. The two lawyers acted as adversaries and I ended up the loser. Switched lawyers at that point to one that seemed to have the respect of her lawyer. That was a breakthrough and 5 years later we finalized. Both my lawyers were nationally renown, respected, and had my best interests at heart. Seems like a long time ago although I will pay alimony as long as she is alive.

 

[Sunset]

I pray for the day women account for 50% of the judges.

Based on my personal experience, the male judges must think with their d--ks, because for me it was always a huge uphill battle to get anything remotely fair decided by a male judge. It was almost as if they expected to go on a date with my ex afterwards.

One time I had a female judge. I thought it would be even worse for me, but she shut down my ex in all her little court room drama, lies, games, and expectations.
It was the one time I actually had a fair hearing.
The arguments were heard, and nobody got special treatment, as all the feminine charms or wiles wouldn't work on that judge.

 

[MarieIG]

Don't know if this is the right place for this. Don't have a clue about custody fights, but my 40 year old son is going through this. It's quit nasty. The court wants a custody evaluation, costs $5000, to be split by both parties. He is deep in debt and cannot afford this. But I don't see that there is anything he can do.
Anyone got ideas?

Pay his share (the court probably knows more about his finances than you do and has taken that into consideration), work on improving his finances, and put the kids first.

 

[Yarnstormer]

It is hard for me to imagine not wanting a good father in my kid’s life. Maybe it’s all about the money. I received child support - we had joint custody with me having primary physical custody. We always worked it out ourselves and never kept to a strict “it’s my weekend” kind of schedule. We also used one lawyer. He was def a lazy man and had the gall to lecture me on children of divorce drop out rates etc... then I later learned he was divorced and remarried!

I recall that the year we divorced the laws were set to change as far as support and custody and it would have been entirely different the next year.

Custody evaluation sounds like a scam to me but if thats how it works I’d be real careful about who performed it.

Sorry for the kids. Please take the high road, be pleasant to everyone and stay in their lives. Please don’t skimp on the kids because it might benefit the mom - ie - if you would normally buy dance lessons or trips to Disney for a grandchild, don’t skip it because it’s “her” responsibility.

 

[Sunset]

Pay his share (the court probably knows more about his finances than you do and has taken that into consideration), work on improving his finances, and put the kids first.

No, not at all, that is not how it works, sounds like you have never been divorced.

How it works is wife side knows he is not rich, and needs some justification to show why she should get custody, so her lawyer asks court for a family evaluation. No judge would disallow that "reasonable" request to get "professional" input into the situation.
Sounds great in theory.

The judge certainly does not know at all, as they have 12 cases or more per day, 5 days per week, and he/she won't see this same couple for another month to 3 months between motions.

The lawyers on each side will have a good idea of the finances of both sides, as that would have been found out at discovery.

 

[Danmar]

It is hard for me to imagine not wanting a good father in my kid’s life. Maybe it’s all about the money.

Sorry for the kids. Please take the high road, be pleasant to everyone and stay in their lives. Please don’t skimp on the kids because it might benefit the mom - ie - if you would normally buy dance lessons or trips to Disney for a grandchild, don’t skip it because it’s “her” responsibility.

Agree. I paid child support plus all child related direct expenses. Our agreement had child support ending at age 22. Xwife went back to court to try to extend it till “all schooling was complete”. Judge said “ I don’t understand why he should pay child support (to Xwife) as well as generously picking up all the kids expenses”. I paid tuition, rent, bought her a car, and gave her a generous allowance. That was the first reasonable judgement I got, and the breakthrough that precipitated the final agreement.

My overriding approach to the divorce was “the kid comes first and only”. Worked out great, in the end. Have a wonderful relationship with my daughter.

 

[Pilot2013]

Agree. I paid child support plus all child related direct expenses. Our agreement had child support ending at age 22. Xwife went back to court to try to extend it till “all schooling was complete”. Judge said “ I don’t understand why he should pay child support (to Xwife) as well as generously picking up all the kids expenses (I paid tuition, rent, bought her a car, and gave her a generous allowance). That was the first reasonable judgement I got, and the breakthrough that precipitated the final agreement.

My overriding approach to the divorce was “the kid comes first and only”. Worked out great, in the end. Have a wonderful relationship with my daughter.

Everyone's situation is different for sure, but it sounds like (from one side that we hear on this thread), that this guy needs to prepare. Those of us who have been through this have first hand experience of what CAN happen, not what will. To me, this is much like many other situations where you make a plan for the worst, and hope for the best.

What you DON'T want to do is go in without a plan. As Ronnie Raygun said, "Trust but verify" and "peace through strength".

The hardest thing for me to learn, which I am not VERY thankful my attorney helped me to understand, is that this is now a business transaction.

 

[O2Bfree]

My husband went through this, and while the divorce settlement was difficult and expensive, what came after was difficult as well: the ex playing mom-and-kids-vs.-mean-old-dad games. For example, telling the kids they didn't need to follow dad's rules in his house, violating boundaries by treating his home like hers. She and DH never were on the same page discipline-wise, and it got worse after the divorce.

I think some family counseling might have helped, but that didn't happen and, sadly, the kids became estranged from DH. Definitely the kids must come first, and hopefully everyone understands that includes maintaining good relationships with both parents.