Electrical Circuit out - tracking it down

[Chuckanut]

Here is the final story on my problem electrical circuit. I think I dodged a few future bullets.

I hired an electrician I had used before to replace all the outlets on the problem circuit, and hopefully identify which caused the problem, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. He found three points of potential failure while checking the hardware. Which of these was the cause of the initial problem is a mystery, but any could have caused it.

One switch had a loose neutral wire where it was fasted to a house wire by one of those screw on winged connectors. That connection had come loose. One outlet had a loose back-stab neutral wire, and one outlet had both neutral and hot wires loose, again both back-stabs. Those back-stab springs were just worn out. Several other outlets had lost their ability to firmly hold in a plug. All the outlets were replaced with commercial grade hardware, up one level from the cheapest builder quality stuff.

I really need to consider having him back to replace the remaining outlets and switches in my home.

 

[braumeister]

Those back-stab springs were just worn out.

Failing
Intermittently
Retired
Early

 

[Car-Guy]

Failing
Intermittently
Retired
Early

And just like the outlets, we were all replaced too when we FIRE'd... Of course with cheaper and newer units that probably didn't work as well as the originals ...

 

[NW-Bound]

And just like the outlets, we were all replaced too when we FIRE'd... Of course with cheaper and newer units that probably didn't work as well as the originals ...

The new outlets will be better than originals. Chuckanut will make sure of that.

 

[ERD50]

Here is the final story on my problem electrical circuit. I think I dodged a few future bullets.

I hired an electrician I had used before to replace all the outlets on the problem circuit, and hopefully identify which caused the problem, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. He found three points of potential failure while checking the hardware. Which of these was the cause of the initial problem is a mystery, but any could have caused it.

One switch had a loose neutral wire where it was fasted to a house wire by one of those screw on winged connectors. That connection had come loose. One outlet had a loose back-stab neutral wire, and one outlet had both neutral and hot wires loose, again both back-stabs. Those back-stab springs were just worn out. Several other outlets had lost their ability to firmly hold in a plug. All the outlets were replaced with commercial grade hardware, up one level from the cheapest builder quality stuff.

I really need to consider having him back to replace the remaining outlets and switches in my home.

Hah! I was thinking the same thing (the last bolded part) as I read through this.

Commercial grade is a good choice, I'll follow 427Vette's earlier advice below and make sure that's all I buy going forward.

Typically, a household switch doesn't have Neutral - it switches the hot side (some dimmers, or timers, or ones with indicators might require a neutral in addition). So I'm curious about that.

Also, loose Neutrals or Hots on the backstab connection should only effect that outlet, unless... they backstab the source into an outlet, and then backstab out (from that same outlet) to feed the next outlet down the line. Offhand, I'm thinking that is not to code, but I don't know. But it sure doesn't sound good to me, it is creating a daisy-chain failure effect and all the current down the line is flowing through those backstab connections, even if there is nothing plugged into that outlet. I'd think you'd need to use a wire nut with three wires in it - one from the source, one to the outlet, and the third to feed the next outlet (that third wire would be the source for that next outlet). That way, the outlet is not part of the circuit for other outlets, only itself.

At any rate, it sounds like it's all fixed the right way, and no one was hurt! You can sleep better tonight (or worry about you remaining outlets!)

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

Typically, a household switch doesn't have Neutral - it switches the hot side (some dimmers, or timers, or ones with indicators might require a neutral in addition). So I'm curious about that.


-ERD50

You are probably right. I am going by memory. The switch only has two wires. In any case all seems to be working for now. I would have spent at least a day doing what he did in under 2 hours, and probably not as well. Definitely worth Blowing Some Dough.

 

[GTFan]

Also, loose Neutrals or Hots on the backstab connection should only effect that outlet, unless... they backstab the source into an outlet, and then backstab out (from that same outlet) to feed the next outlet down the line.

That is exactly what happens, they're daisy-chained since the old backstab outlets have two pairs (just like screws in cheap outlets today). My almost 50-year old house had one fail when too much load was put on the circuit downstream (breaker didn't pop), and yeah it's dangerous. Never had a problem with any other outlets.

 

[sroby2020]

melted?

I'm not saying this is your problem, but I've had circuit breakers melt from the massive heat overload. They tend to pack them in tightly in the main fuse box. Our home is 40 years old, but we had to replace the entire circuit box about 10 years ago, after the main fuse failed and caused many of the smaller breakers to fail. That was about $1500 of unwanted expense.

 

[Sirka]

I would use multimeter with breaker off and extention cord .You can ohm or continuity test where you loose your netural. Replace the old outlets in the process. Good luck

 

[JAS1776]

Use a volt meter on each outlet, shaking isn’t quite professional. Some circuits are connected in the outlet and can go bad. Check both the outlets for power. If the outlet has power on one and not the other, that is your problem. A bad GFI will can also kill all the outlets that feed off it.

 

[bgares]

We’ve had a few outages. Most homes have a main feed of 240 volts( 2 lines) that is split into each side of your circuit panel , 110 volts each side. So that’s how you lose half your power. Once your power is fully restored , everything will work fine. Good luck

 

[gwix98]

Use a volt meter on each outlet, shaking isn’t quite professional. Some circuits are connected in the outlet and can go bad. Check both the outlets for power. If the outlet has power on one and not the other, that is your problem. A bad GFI will can also kill all the outlets that feed off it.

Well said. A voltmeter is a very handy thing to have around the house.

 

[themillerman]

Happened to me one year after I purchased my new home. All of the 2nd floor was without power while the first floor was fine. Fortunately the kitchen and fridge were on the first floor but unfortunately, the master bedroom was on the second floor.

Anyway, it turned out that it was an issue that required a replacement of some sort by the power company on the outside near the power meter.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Also, loose Neutrals or Hots on the backstab connection should only effect that outlet, unless... they backstab the source into an outlet, and then backstab out (from that same outlet) to feed the next outlet down the line.

That is exactly what happens, they're daisy-chained since the old backstab outlets have two pairs (just like screws in cheap outlets today). My almost 50-year old house had one fail when too much load was put on the circuit downstream (breaker didn't pop), and yeah it's dangerous. Never had a problem with any other outlets.

Hmmm, I guess I never really noticed it, I'll take note next time I have to open up anything.

When I recently added a box with dual duplex outlets, I did daisy chain from one outlet to the other, but that's in the same box, and the feed terminated there.

For new installs, I guess extending the connection via the screw terminals, is as good or better than extending the connection via wire nuts, which would be the alternative. But since the old spring back-stabs have apparently not held up over time, that daisy chain does increase the odds of having a problem on the circuit.

-ERD50

 

[GaryInCO]

I have a similar problem. I had a crew in to stretch carpets in my office. While they were moving some bookshelves &etc, my cordless phone bleated its "help! I can't reach my base station!" sound. I figured they had just knocked out the plug. But after they left, I realized all the outlets in that room were dead. Didn't notice right away because my computer, monitor, etc are on a UPS.

* I don't see any tripped breakers in the main panel. I don't remember which breaker hosts the office outlets, and the 30-yr-old writing in the door is too faded to read. I've been intending for ages to get a helper and map out all the circuits...
* As far as I can tell, no other outlets outside that room are dead. There are 8 outlets so it's possible they're on their own circuit. The lights are on a separate circuit.
* The office is adjacent to the kitchen, which has a GFCI. But I don't think there's any connection. There are also several GFCIs in other parts of the house.
* 4 years ago I did a full interior reno. We painted everything in several shades of gray. The old ivory switches/outlets were yellowed and looked like hell. I discovered Home Depot had Leviton Decora switches/outlets that exactly matched the main gray shade. So I replaced every switch and outlet in the house -- about 35 switches and probably at least 150 outlets. The original outlets were installed with backstabs, but I screwed the wires into the side terminals when I replaced them.
* I wiggled all the outlets I could access with no improvement. (There are heavy bookshelves in front of a few outlets. The carpet guys moved those so it's possible they could have bumped the outlets behind them? Maybe I need to haul those away from the wall...)
* I have a simple tester from Ace Hardware. It just has "Protected" and "Grounded" indicators. It's dark on the dead outlets.
* I have a voltmeter but I'm not sure how to trace this, especially since I don't know which breaker the outlets are on.

I was about ready to call an electrician. Anything I should try first?

 

[Jerry1]

Anything I should try first?

Go to your main box and cycle all your circuits. Sometimes they trip but it’s hard to tell just by looking at it.

 

[BasketCase24]

Electrical tools I think everyone should have

First, basic outlet tester. Klein Tools GFCI Receptacle Tester is nice because you can also test GFI. Second, Klein Tools Digital Circuit Breaker Finder with GFCI Outlet Tester and Accessory Kit so you can identify which breaker is associated with which outlets (I often write the breaker number on the outlet where it can’t be seen with the cover in place. If you don’t move your outlet covers around, you can mark it on there…) Third, Klein Tools Manual Ranging Digital Multimeter. I picked Klein examples because Home Depot has them.

Last, I recommend a device called Ting. Here’s their link https://www.tingfire.com/shop/ting-home-protection-service/. This device monitors your whole house’s wiring. I got mine free from my insurance company but there may be a monitoring fee in the future. Ting looks for arc’ing, unusual electrical interference, etc., and reports abnormalities to you. They will also dispatch qualified electricians upon request. Their system also detects problems in the transformer feeding your home.

I lost my older brother in a house fire caused by electrical issues when I was 8. Take these problems seriously, please. Get help if needed.

 

[GaryInCO]

I actually made my own GFCI tester. I looked up what current was supposed to trigger it, and I wired up a couple of resistors with total resistance that would pass just a bit more current. If the GFCI was working, my McGyvered tester would pop it. If the GFCI failed, it would pop the resistors.

But that Circuit Breaker Finder sounds just slightly more capable. It's exactly what I need to identify the suspect breaker, and it's got a good GFCI tester to boot. Not cheap, but it'll pay for itself if it saves a call to the electrician. I'll pick one up. But I'm getting gypped... for some reason the HD website showed me a store in another state, and it's $10 cheaper there than at my local HDs. Grumble. Maybe I'll order it for delivery, but I'd have to add $5 more to the order to get free delivery...

 

[ERD50]

... Last, I recommend a device called Ting. Here’s their link https://www.tingfire.com/shop/ting-home-protection-service/. This device monitors your whole house’s wiring. I got mine free from my insurance company but there may be a monitoring fee in the future. Ting looks for arc’ing, unusual electrical interference, etc., and reports abnormalities to you. They will also dispatch qualified electricians upon request. Their system also detects problems in the transformer feeding your home.

I lost my older brother in a house fire caused by electrical issues when I was 8. Take these problems seriously, please. Get help if needed.

Wow, what an awful loss, especially at that age. My heart goes out to your family.

I was skeptical, a plug in device certainly can detect some problems, but I feel they may be overstating it's capabilities, especially since the FAQ says there have been zero false alarms. Regardless, anything it does help with is a positive.

And I found my insurance company (State Farm) is also providing these *free*, with 3 years of monitoring service included. The free offer is limited to certain locations, and even though I saw a list of states that does not include IL, they say the program is being expanded, and it did accept my address, so I guess that list is out of date.

OK, found in the FAQ, the service is required, $99/year after my insurance company covers the first 3 years. Maybe by then, if they determine this is worthwhile, they'll offer a discount on the insurance which would offset some/all of that cost?

I *think* I've noticed a *slight* dimming of lights when the neighbor's A/C kicks in. Might be my imagination, but I'm curious if this will detect that, and if it considered a problem at all (it's probably just a normal drop, we probably share a common line from the nearby transformer).

Thanks for the tip!

-ERD50

 

[street]

ERD50, that is a common event when a transformer is under sized, or right at output amps threshold.

I would contact your power supplier and tell them the problem. They need to take care of the low voltage and amperage issue.

 

[CRLLS]

Hopefully, when tracing out the circuits you will not find what I did during a recent construction project, a hidden junction box behind a cabinet. The wires were simply twisted and taped! An electrical fault just waiting to happen with no way to know it was even there. not to mention the fire hazard waiting to happen! You never know what a someone has previously hidden out of sight.

 

[ncbill]

Hopefully, when tracing out the circuits you will not find what I did during a recent construction project, a hidden junction box behind a cabinet. The wires were simply twisted and taped! An electrical fault just waiting to happen with no way to know it was even there. not to mention the fire hazard waiting to happen! You never know what a someone has previously hidden out of sight.

I had the same problem with a late relative's house I sold just last year.

Built in the 1930s there were still a few 2-wire outlets left (primarily installed on the baseboard in the bedrooms)

But most outlets had been upgraded to 3-wire by the previous owner back in the 1970s.

When testing I found several outlets had "lost" ground, so I had an electrician come out.

He found the ground wires at the panel were tied together by only a single metal ring clamp which was loose...steel clamp, copper wires.

So his theory was that ground wires in some hidden junction box(es) were tied together the same way and that the clamp (or whatever else tied them together) had failed over the decades.

I wasn't about to start tearing open walls, so I had the electrician install GFCI outlets upstream of the outlets that had lost ground, labeling those downstream outlets "GFCI protected, no equipment ground" per code.

 

[Chuckanut]

Hopefully, when tracing out the circuits you will not find what I did during a recent construction project, a hidden junction box behind a cabinet. The wires were simply twisted and taped! An electrical fault just waiting to happen with no way to know it was even there. not to mention the fire hazard waiting to happen! You never know what a someone has previously hidden out of sight.

A very long while back I owned a house. The previous owner was a real cheapskate. The fad back then was to insulate around electrical outlets that were on an outside wall. The idea was to keep cold outside air from sneaking into the house via the outlet box. This guy insulated the box and outlet by stuffing bathroom tissue around and in them. Yes. Really. One spark and Poof! Needless to say I removed each face plate and dug out the tissue.

This thread is turning into a very interesting primer on home electrical issues. Thanks. I will definitely book mark it for future reference.

 

[RetiredAndLovingIt]

Since we're talking about outlets, I found this very helpful short video.
Did anyone else know of this trick or hack as we call it these days.

 

[GaryInCO]

I picked up one of the breaker finders. Nifty tool. Talked them into giving me the $10-cheaper price.

The results are... confusing. The outlet tester says the "dead" outlets have an open neutral, even though they had been working fine until the carpet guys moved furniture.

I took the breaker finder out to the panel, and it bleated accusingly at a circuit that (I thought??) was just added a year ago -- the exhaust fan for a radon mitigation system. And when I tripped the breaker on that circuit, the garage lights also went out !? Fortunately the original electrician labeled the hot wires coming out of the breakers, and the breaker marked "radon fan" has a hot wire labeled "garage and utility room." The radon guy must have tapped into an existing circuit -- reasonable enough, but labeling that breaker "radon fan" was a bit confusing. The breaker finder has already earned its keep.

So that's why the garage lights went out. And apparently my office (on the other side of the house, but actually only about 10-15' from the utility room) is on the same circuit.

The outlets in the utility room test fine. I assume "open neutral" in the office and "just fine" in the utility room (which is probably directly upstream of the office) probably indicates the open neutral is on the first outlet in the office, or the last outlet in the utility room. I'll try to find that.

So I guess the next step is to open up all the outlets in the office -- and possibly in the utility room -- and see if I find a neutral problem. (It's certainly possible, since I replaced all the outlets & switches. But I still have no idea how the carpet guys triggered this issue.) Then I'll see if the radon guy has any bright ideas. Otherwise it may be time to call the electrician...

EDIT: Oh snap. I THOUGHT I screwed all the wires in. I just pulled an outlet and apparently I backstabbed at least some of them. Ooops.