European energy situation

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European choices

There are a bunch of issues starting with the European Commission thinking they are a federal system. This is not in fact the legal case and it is not the United States of Europe despite their beliefs otherwise.

We live in Hungary which is part of the EU but is always more or less a fly in the ointment. Hungary has a separate gas supply coming via Turkstream through Serbia and they negotiated excellent prices using a long-term contract with Gazprom. Hungary pays for both gas and oil using Rubles so no actual problems. All the remaining EU countries abolished long-term contracts and also implemented a spot market price that pushed prices to insane levels. The suicidal sanctions implemented to punish Russia (which backfired badly) are an example of the extremely short-sighted and poor thought process by the unelected leadership of the EU. BTW, the EU is not in any way a democracy.

The latest genius idea is that countries getting gas, such as Hungary, must provide 20% of their supply to the remaining EU countries that banned gas and oil or refuse to pay in Rubles. BTW, it was Ukraine that shut off the Yamal pipeline supplying Europe along with Poland who is getting reverse flow gas from Germany who doesn't have it to give. No other countries can supply the EU and the US despite promises, is unable to provide sufficient LNG for Europe.

The turbines sent to Canada for repair still are lost in transit and there are 4 more turbines needing repair so NorthStream 1 is running at 20% capacity. Germany could fix this but their leadership is so incompetent it boggles the mind. There is still a perfectly good pipeline demanded by Germany and not by Russia, that can run at a moment's notice. However, it is the US demanding that the European countries stop using Russian gas and the EU political class eagerly follows the US orders.

The upshot is Russia doesn't care and is fine with divorcing itself from Europe entirely. They have finally realized that all of the EU is Russiaphobic and that this will never change. Hence a turn to the East. Inside Russia, things are fine more or less. They are making more money than ever because of the spot market prices implemented stupidly by the EU.

That brings in the oil problem. The oil mix delivered by Russia is a particular blend that is extremely stable in consistency. Refineries are tuned to precise oil consistency and cannot easily or cheaply switch to another source hence why the US is importing Russia at a rate never seen before despite rhetoric to the opposite. This is to replace the oil we stupidly embargoed from Venezuela which is pretty close to Russian oil. BTW the last refinery built in the US was in 1971. It costs billions and a minimum of 6 months to change over to a new source of oil.

In the meantime, India and China are buying Russian oil at a nice discount and selling it to Europe for a massive profit. The only people losing are the European citizens who cannot replace the EU commissioners as they are not elected in the first place. I foresee a disaster in the polls after this winter kills a lot of Europeans because of stupid EU Commission decisions. The EU Parliamentarians are all appointed by their respective governments so the backlash will end up back on the leaders of each EU member country. Many will be replaced soon if they don't reverse the sanctions. It is already happening though so I am not particularly worried. Political animals are pretty good at surviving. Really, it is a matter of selling this back to the subjects so as to not look weak.

Here in Hungary our gasoline and diesel are capped at 380 HUF (roughly 1.20 Euros) and people with foreign license plates must pay European prices not Hungarian prices. The EU is enraged over this. This was implemented to help Hungarian citizens. Hungary is also 100% self-sufficient for electricity production and is cutting off from the EU grid. Hungary is also a minor oil and gas producing country and roughly 30% of domestic use comes from Hungarian source. They have cut the oil pipeline going to Austria as an example. But, Hungary is also implementing an emergency tax on both gas and electricity. Our electricity is doubling to roughly 20 cents a kW but the gas is going up 700%. I have simply turned off our gas entirely, switched to electric heating using our A/C systems that can run as heat pumps and will use our fireplace more. I have enough wood for 3 winters. For the past 3 years the temperature barely dropped below freezing for 2 days or so.

Because of the gay rights issues (which the Hungarian people are adamantly against) Hungary is being punished by the EU Commission and hasn't received any money from the EU now for 2 years. Frankly, I don't see any logical reason for Hungary to stay in the EU if things don't change. The EU wants to kick them out anyway so maybe things will improve.
 
There are a bunch of issues starting with the European Commission thinking they are a federal system. This is not in fact the legal case and it is not the United States of Europe despite their beliefs otherwise.

We live in Hungary which is part of the EU but is always more or less a fly in the ointment. Hungary has a separate gas supply coming via Turkstream through Serbia and they negotiated excellent prices using a long-term contract with Gazprom. Hungary pays for both gas and oil using Rubles so no actual problems. All the remaining EU countries abolished long-term contracts and also implemented a spot market price that pushed prices to insane levels. The suicidal sanctions implemented to punish Russia (which backfired badly) are an example of the extremely short-sighted and poor thought process by the unelected leadership of the EU. BTW, the EU is not in any way a democracy.

The latest genius idea is that countries getting gas, such as Hungary, must provide 20% of their supply to the remaining EU countries that banned gas and oil or refuse to pay in Rubles. BTW, it was Ukraine that shut off the Yamal pipeline supplying Europe along with Poland who is getting reverse flow gas from Germany who doesn't have it to give. No other countries can supply the EU and the US despite promises, is unable to provide sufficient LNG for Europe.

The turbines sent to Canada for repair still are lost in transit and there are 4 more turbines needing repair so NorthStream 1 is running at 20% capacity. Germany could fix this but their leadership is so incompetent it boggles the mind. There is still a perfectly good pipeline demanded by Germany and not by Russia, that can run at a moment's notice. However, it is the US demanding that the European countries stop using Russian gas and the EU political class eagerly follows the US orders.

The upshot is Russia doesn't care and is fine with divorcing itself from Europe entirely. They have finally realized that all of the EU is Russiaphobic and that this will never change. Hence a turn to the East. Inside Russia, things are fine more or less. They are making more money than ever because of the spot market prices implemented stupidly by the EU.

That brings in the oil problem. The oil mix delivered by Russia is a particular blend that is extremely stable in consistency. Refineries are tuned to precise oil consistency and cannot easily or cheaply switch to another source hence why the US is importing Russia at a rate never seen before despite rhetoric to the opposite. This is to replace the oil we stupidly embargoed from Venezuela which is pretty close to Russian oil. BTW the last refinery built in the US was in 1971. It costs billions and a minimum of 6 months to change over to a new source of oil.

In the meantime, India and China are buying Russian oil at a nice discount and selling it to Europe for a massive profit. The only people losing are the European citizens who cannot replace the EU commissioners as they are not elected in the first place. I foresee a disaster in the polls after this winter kills a lot of Europeans because of stupid EU Commission decisions. The EU Parliamentarians are all appointed by their respective governments so the backlash will end up back on the leaders of each EU member country. Many will be replaced soon if they don't reverse the sanctions. It is already happening though so I am not particularly worried. Political animals are pretty good at surviving. Really, it is a matter of selling this back to the subjects so as to not look weak.

Here in Hungary our gasoline and diesel are capped at 380 HUF (roughly 1.20 Euros) and people with foreign license plates must pay European prices not Hungarian prices. The EU is enraged over this. This was implemented to help Hungarian citizens. Hungary is also 100% self-sufficient for electricity production and is cutting off from the EU grid. Hungary is also a minor oil and gas producing country and roughly 30% of domestic use comes from Hungarian source. They have cut the oil pipeline going to Austria as an example. But, Hungary is also implementing an emergency tax on both gas and electricity. Our electricity is doubling to roughly 20 cents a kW but the gas is going up 700%. I have simply turned off our gas entirely, switched to electric heating using our A/C systems that can run as heat pumps and will use our fireplace more. I have enough wood for 3 winters. For the past 3 years the temperature barely dropped below freezing for 2 days or so.

Because of the gay rights issues (which the Hungarian people are adamantly against) Hungary is being punished by the EU Commission and hasn't received any money from the EU now for 2 years. Frankly, I don't see any logical reason for Hungary to stay in the EU if things don't change. The EU wants to kick them out anyway so maybe things will improve.


I'm sorry you and Hungary are being victimized because of your antagonism to "gay rights" and support of Russian invasion of Ukraine. That is so unfair. But, hey, you are part of NATO. Aren't you, despite your despot? Hungary can always pull out of NATO and you will be quite fine, won't you? I'm blocking my tears but the tissue isn't quite sufficient.
 
Define "energy Independent" (we still import 1/2 of our crude oil needs, and export some crude and refined products too!)


BP's Alaska pipeline is still active and has been since the late 1970's. It's design life was 30 years. It still sends ~700,000 barrels per day of crude down this way.

Oil is very fungible. Sometimes I makes more sense to buy a tanker of of oil for Saudi Arabia, than to ship oil from Alaska to the East Coast. You pay for the tanker of Saudi oil by selling a tanker of Alaskan crude to the Japanese.
 
That brings in the oil problem. The oil mix delivered by Russia is a particular blend that is extremely stable in consistency. Refineries are tuned to precise oil consistency and cannot easily or cheaply switch to another source hence why the US is importing Russia at a rate never seen before despite rhetoric to the opposite. This is to replace the oil we stupidly embargoed from Venezuela which is pretty close to Russian oil. BTW the last refinery built in the US was in 1971. It costs billions and a minimum of 6 months to change over to a new source of oil.

A little more clarity:

The newest refinery in the United States is the Texas International Terminals 45,000 bpd refinery in Channelview, Texas, which was operable on January 1, 2022, but actually started operating in February, 2022. A pretty small one in capacity.

However, the newest refinery with significant downstream unit capacity is Marathon's facility in Garyville, Louisiana. That facility came online in 1977 with an initial atmospheric distillation unit capacity of 200,000 bpd, and as of January 1, 2022, it had a capacity of 585,000 bpd through expansions.

Capacity has also been added to existing refineries through upgrades or new construction. Some recent examples of large increases include:

In 2012, Motiva (previous Texaco) upgraded its refinery in Port Arthur, Texas, making it the largest U.S. refinery, with a capacity of 626,000 bpd as of January 1, 2022.

In 2015, Valero expanded its Corpus Christi, Texas refinery after previous expansions, bringing its capacity as of January 1, 2022, to 290,000 bpd.
 
That brings in the oil problem. The oil mix delivered by Russia is a particular blend that is extremely stable in consistency. Refineries are tuned to precise oil consistency and cannot easily or cheaply switch to another source hence why the US is importing Russia at a rate never seen before despite rhetoric to the opposite. This is to replace the oil we stupidly embargoed from Venezuela which is pretty close to Russian oil. BTW the last refinery built in the US was in 1971. It costs billions and a minimum of 6 months to change over to a new source of oil.
I spent most of my career in the refining business. I'm not sure any of these statements are factual.
 
Without energy storage, here's what happens with Germany solar power:

The more the sun shines in the southern German town of Aurach, the more likely it is that Jens Husemann's solar panels will be disconnected from the grid -- an exasperating paradox at a time when Germany is navigating an energy supply crisis.

"It's being switched off every day," Husemann told AFP during a recent sunny spell, saying there had been more than 120 days of forced shutdowns so far this year.

Husemann, who runs an energy conversion business near Munich, also owns a sprawling solar power system on the flat roof of a transport company in Aurach, Bavaria.

The energy generated flows into power lines run by grid operator N-Ergie, which then distributes it on the network.

But in sunny weather, the power lines are becoming overloaded -- leading the grid operator to cut off supply from the solar panels.


Read the full article here: When the sun switches off the solar panels.

Remember that article in LA Times that said California had to pay Arizona to use some solar power on some days when there was too much solar power. When the power came from residential roof tops, you could not cut them off. So, a lot of power was pumped into the grid, and there was no use for it, you had to pay someone to take it.
 
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It's unfortunate, but I think it all will have to get much worse before it gets any better. Maybe that's the "plan" if there is one.

Just keep in mind that, realistically, the issues now are not because of "actual" shortages. The shortages are self inflicted in almost all cases and are based on geo-political issues as well as believing we can "fix" global (whatever we're calling it now.) Big subject, lots of opinions, so YMMV.
 
Farmers are now revolting over the green energy push on them and are dumping manure on highways. As the food supply continues to be affected, I suspect things may change.
 
Without energy storage, here's what happens with Germany solar power:


Read the full article here: When the sun switches off the solar panels.

Remember that article in LA Times that said California had to pay Arizona to use some solar power on some days when there was too much solar power. When the power came from residential roof tops, you could not cut them off. So, a lot of power was pumped into the grid, and there was no use for it, you had to pay someone to take it.

This is the point where EVs actually could be 'green' and charged with RE. When you actually have an excess of RE.

However, these excesses don't happen regularly enough to account for much. And as more RE comes on line and excesses become more common, that's going to tend to make RE less and less economically feasible. If the grid is already hitting hard-to-sell peaks, any marginal addition is going to add to those peaks.

Smart-connected charges could take advantage of these peaks. But how many cars are going to be plugged in to charge at that time. A lot of people are on the road. Hard to say where that point is.

-ERD50
 
... When the power came from residential roof tops, you could not cut them off. So, a lot of power was pumped into the grid, and there was no use for it, you had to pay someone to take it.

Just wanted to add a technical note to this.

I'm not sure at what point this happens (approaching ~ 50%?), but solar that can't be shut off during high production can cause 'instability' of the grid. The generators on the grid are controlled to maintain 60/50 Hz - the throttle-able ones move up and down with demand. That base frequency must be maintained to keep the grid synced and all working as it should.

But... the solar panels "follow" the grid. They just sync to it. But if solar is out-producing the managed generators on the grid - who follows who? You can get into a positive feedback loop that winds up out of control. I think this is really why CA had to dump electricity, there wasn't a true 'excess' of RE (more being produced than consumed), it was just high enough to mess up the grid stability.

This is another reason I am against residential solar. It just makes no sense from an economy of scale and does not make good use of limited resources (residential installs are rarely optimal). Any proponent of solar should be against them. Large commercial installs are far better for everyone. I think I read of plans to make a large solar install connected through a radio link, so it could be instructed to follow the the phase of the grid. Not sure that's feasible at the residential level.

-ERD50
 
Each country in the EU has different approaches to their specific energy needs. I guess the airfield at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport could be resurrected but the cost of doing so is off the charts crazy. It's not practical to waste so much fuel to ditribute fuel (unless you're at war).

In Germany's case they have 3 nuclear plants still running until end of 2022. That's 12% of their needs. https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/could-germany-keep-its-nuclear-plants-running-2022-02-28/

That article is six months old. I think most in the country will change their minds about evil nuclear when there local supply degrades.
 
Just wanted to add a technical note to this.

I'm not sure at what point this happens (approaching ~ 50%?), but solar that can't be shut off during high production can cause 'instability' of the grid. The generators on the grid are controlled to maintain 60/50 Hz - the throttle-able ones move up and down with demand. That base frequency must be maintained to keep the grid synced and all working as it should.

But... the solar panels "follow" the grid. They just sync to it. But if solar is out-producing the managed generators on the grid - who follows who? You can get into a positive feedback loop that winds up out of control. I think this is really why CA had to dump electricity, there wasn't a true 'excess' of RE (more being produced than consumed), it was just high enough to mess up the grid stability...


Yes. This potential problem was thought of many years ago. A quick search found a 2011 paper from a German institution talking about this. I don't know about the current state of affairs.

See: https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/biblio/21538641

This is another reason I am against residential solar. It just makes no sense from an economy of scale and does not make good use of limited resources (residential installs are rarely optimal). Any proponent of solar should be against them. Large commercial installs are far better for everyone...

... unless the residential solar system is isolated from the grid, and with its own battery for storage (like mine :cool: :angel:).

I have been running on my DIY system as much as possible to squeeze all the juice out of the PV panels. Excess energy during sunlight hours go into the battery for night use.

The grid is my backup source when I do not generate enough solar for my own use. Without the grid, I would need a generator.

There has been no rolling blackout where I am. Else, I would already have on standby a backup generator running on propane.
 
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A short discussion on power factor of solar connection to grid.
AFIK Utilities transfer power among the areas served by adjusting power factor. Same idea can be used by solar farms industrial installations and to a lesser extent by happy homeowner systems if their equipment can adjust to lead or lag the grid.
https://esdnews.com.au/power-factor-and-grid-connected-pv/

Unfortunately the graphs referenced in the article did not show up.

"Residential customers do not consume enough energy to warrant the additional costs of metering equipment to measure power factor. Large industrial and commercial customers, however, are billed for consuming power at a poor power factor. There is, therefore, an incentive for these customers to improve the power factor of their loads and reduce the amount of reactive power they draw from the grid."

"If this factory were to install a 60kW PV system (light green) that exported at a unity power factor, only the active power imported from the grid would be affected. The imported active power from the grid (blue) has been reduced to 40kW, while the reactive power imported from the grid (red) remains constant at 32.9kVAr. The resulting apparent power as drawn from the grid reduces to 51.79kVA. This has the effect of reducing the power factor to 0.77 – lagging (phase angle 39.4°).

This problem of poor power factor however can be addressed through the selection of appropriate inverter products. Inverters with reactive power control can be configured to produce both active and reactive power, i.e. an output at a non-unity power factor. This means the power factor for the load can be kept within reasonable limits."

Another source of info:https://www.gses.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/GSES_powerfactor-110316.pdf
"Most grid connected PV inverters are only set up to
inject power at unity power factor, meaning they
only produce active power. In effect this reduces the
power factor, as the grid is then supplying less active
power, but the same amount of reactive power.
Consider the situation in Figure 5. The factory is
consuming 100kW of active power, and 32.9kVAr
of reactive power, resulting in a power factor of
0.95 lagging."
 
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Farmers are now revolting over the green energy push on them and are dumping manure on highways. As the food supply continues to be affected, I suspect things may change.

Funny how folks notice when there's manure on the road, the lights don't come on and there's no food. Suddenly, folks are not nearly as green as they once thought they were.

Without coordinating a paradigm shift this large, going green (or whatever we're calling it now) will be the joke our kids and grandkids tell on us in 40 years from now - when THEY have sorted it all out. YMMV
 
Without coordinating a paradigm shift this large, going green (or whatever we're calling it now) will be the joke our kids and grandkids tell on us in 40 years from now - when THEY have sorted it all out. YMMV

Let's hope it doesn't take that long to realize you cannot flash cut to whatever you want to call this, other than a terrible lack of realistic planning and viable replacement sources.
 
A coal mine in the UK that was shut down 30 years ago may get revived. The proponents say, if the UK has to import coal, why not revive the mine and give the locals jobs. The proposal has not been approved, but this shows how dire the situation is, for people to even contemplate it.

From Bloomberg:

In the far northwest corner of England, coal mining was so finished that the local museum paying tribute to the industry shut a few years ago after running into financial trouble.

Yet at the dormant Haig Pit in Whitehaven, there are signs that an activity long considered dead wants to come back to life. Next to the mine shaft tower and red-brick building that housed the exhibit space is the office of West Cumbria Mining Ltd., which plans to open the UK’s first deep coal mine in more than three decades.

After years of opposition from environmental groups and political wrangling, the UK government delayed a decision on whether the mine should go ahead, following the July resignation of Prime Minister Boris Johnson. It's been pushed back again, with a ruling due by Nov. 8. But whatever happens, the controversial project has highlighted the broader dilemma facing the next leader over how to balance the country’s green goals with the upheaval of fuel supplies in the wake of Russia’s war in Ukraine.
 
A coal mine in the UK that was shut down 30 years ago may get revived. The proponents say, if the UK has to import coal, why not revive the mine and give the locals jobs. The proposal has not been approved, but this shows how dire the situation is, for people to even contemplate it.

From Bloomberg:

I'm guessing that we'll see a lot more of this kind of back-tracking - restarting old "carbon based" electricity plants, reopening mines/wells, etc. Renewables simply are not yet ready to fully replace carbon. It's unfortunate but we just can't wish that renewables would replace carbon and call that a plan. YMMV
 
I'm guessing that we'll see a lot more of this kind of back-tracking - restarting old "carbon based" electricity plants, reopening mines/wells, etc. Renewables simply are not yet ready to fully replace carbon. It's unfortunate but we just can't wish that renewables would replace carbon and call that a plan. YMMV

Why not? King Kanute ordered the tide not to come. If some ancient king can do that, why can't modern politicians simply command more clean energy be available? :rolleyes:

My greatest fear over the rush to electrify everything and do away with fossil fuels is that we will see the above situation in the UK on a much larger scale which will make climate change problems even worse.
 
Just to clarify, the proposed new UK coal mine listed above has been on the cards for a few years, it is coal for high quality steel production and is about local jobs rather than energy security. 85% of the coal produced would be exported, the other 15% used in British steel production. The proposal is back on the table because the British steel industry uses Russian coal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56023895
 
A coal mine in the UK that was shut down 30 years ago may get revived. The proponents say, if the UK has to import coal, why not revive the mine and give the locals jobs. The proposal has not been approved, but this shows how dire the situation is, for people to even contemplate it.
I mean, to be fair, the only thing less environmentally friendly than burning coal is using lots of fuel oil to ship the same amount of coal thousands of miles! :cool:

Seriously though, as someone who is in favor of clean, renewable energy, I am not really joking. If coal isn't phased out, then using local coal is probably preferable to importing it. The only reasons I can think of to import when you have it available domestically are 1) the other country has a significantly lower standard of living, and so will charge close to or less per ton what it costs you to extract your own coal, or 2) your people don't like the effects of coal mining, basically international NIMBYism.
 
... The only reasons I can think of to import when you have it available domestically are 1) the other country has a significantly lower standard of living, and so will charge close to or less per ton what it costs you to extract your own coal, or 2) your people don't like the effects of coal mining, basically international NIMBYism.


Most Western countries including the US are outsourcing many dirty and polluting jobs, enjoy the lower costs, and even get to call themselves "green".

Yes, we are all guilty of hypocrisy. The only way to be greener is to consume less.
 
From Financial Times:

Germany is going to set the thermostat at 19C (66F) this winter to reduce natural gas consumption. It is trying to fill the storage tanks to 95% by November 1, before the winter comes. They are at 75% now.

Klaus Müller, head of the federal network agency (BNA), will be in charge of rationing gas supplies. He said residential users would have top priorities, and added that there was no way to make people cut back usage, but he hoped that people would cooperate. Müller is working hard to determine the priorities of the commercial and industrial users.


Notes: In 1977, US president Carter called for US citizens to set the thermostat at 65F during the energy crisis.

In France, the grocery chain Carrefour said it would set the temperature in its stores to 19C (66F), and was prepared to lower it to 17C (63F) if needed.
 
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My greatest fear over the rush to electrify everything and do away with fossil fuels is that we will see the above situation in the UK on a much larger scale which will make climate change problems even worse.

In spite of a non-stop media campaign I'm not very worried. I still remember when CO2 was plant food and not a toxin that will destroy the world.
 
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