Florida living

[aja8888]

Florida isn't the tropical mecca of the 50s-60s anymore. I lived in Orlando before Disney came and it was just a sleepy little town in central Florida. A great place to live. At that time it had a population of about 250,000. Now it is more than 2 million. That doesn't account for all the tourists throughout the year. The crowds are much the same as you go to the major cities (and smaller towns) further south.
I enjoy living in Florida but I live in a place far away from those areas and crowds but at the beach with all the amenities and features that are important to me. I would rarely go anywhere south of St Augustine.

Cheers!

I did 6 months of nuclear missile launch training at Orlando Air Force Base in 1965. Yes, it's quite different" there now. As a matter of fact, it was like living on the moon in 1965 vs today like being in concrete Hell.

 

[JoeWras]

I remember going to a Palm Beach county meeting back in the day. It was regarding the placement of a dump. Dumps are a big issue in south Florida because the warm weather never allows the stench to stop.

Anyway, the county planner was using terms like: "When build out east of the Loxahatchee is complete in 30 years, we'll have no choice but eminent domain of homes. That's why we need a location now."

I asked: "Build out?" What do you mean? She said it is what it sounds like, all land used for development.

She was pretty much spot on. When I look at the satellite maps, build out is pretty much complete. Even in the 80s, there was loads of land west of the Turnpike that was open. No more.

Amazing.

 

[aaronc879]

Hot, humid, and hurricanes. Not for us.

All of those are preferable to shoveling snow and driving on snow/ice. To each their own.

 

[Dtail]

All of those are preferable to shoveling snow and driving on snow/ice. To each their own.

Exactly, plus it is hot and humid in many places, just not the length of time as in FLA.
Rather face the known ahead of time hurricanes, rather than the minimal warning tornadoes and no warning earthquakes.

 

[Amethyst]

"Back in the day," the area where The Villages now sits, was considered unfit for anything but cattle. Too hot and humid, far far away from anything desirable (culture, shopping, beach, etc.)

I remember going to a Palm Beach county meeting back in the day. .

 

[aaronc879]

"Back in the day," the area where The Villages now sits, was considered unfit for anything but cattle. Too hot and humid, far far away from anything desirable (culture, shopping, beach, etc.)

The Villages is paradise for a 55+ extrovert. Too crowded for me though. Too expensive too but perfect for many many people.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by DrRoy View Post
Hot, humid, and hurricanes. Not for us.

All of those are preferable to shoveling snow and driving on snow/ice. To each their own.

Well yes to "to each their own".

Shoveling snow? - I get that done for not a lot of money. $40 won't stop a hurricane. Sounds like the insurance rates due to hurricanes would cost more than a snow service?

Driving on snow/ice? - We are retired, we almost never would need to drive on snow and ice.

It's all personal preference/choice (well, family ties or other ties may make it not so much of choice for some), but I already get too much heat/humidity here in Northern IL, and the cold doesn't bother me as much as some, I enjoy some of it. I find clear, sunny, windless days to actually be refreshing. It can be 'brisk', even into single digits F. Far better for me than a windy, wet day in the 50's.

And yes, "to each their own".

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Exactly, plus it is hot and humid in many places, just not the length of time as in FLA.
Rather face the known ahead of time hurricanes, rather than the minimal warning tornadoes and no warning earthquakes.

Yes, tornadoes are terrible and short warning (that's getting better), but the majority of them are below F4, and the path of major damage my be fairly small. It's almost like being hit by lightening, terrible if it happens, but the odds are low it will happen to you. In the last 50 years, I think I only know of one person in our circle of friends/acquaintances/people-we-do-business-with, who was directly and significantly affected by a tornado. I doubt that's the case for 50 year residents of FL and hurricanes.

And tornadoes are localized enough, help can come in from nearby areas.

It's always going to be something - pick your poison.

-ERD50

 

[aaronc879]

Shoveling snow? - I get that done for not a lot of money. $40 won't stop a hurricane. Sounds like the insurance rates due to hurricanes would cost more than a snow service?

Driving on snow/ice? - We are retired, we almost never would need to drive on snow and ice.
-ERD50

The lowest I have been able to find for snow removal around here is $60 and they all want you to be on their route so you get it done every time it snows. $60 X 20 snow falls is $1200 per year. Not cheap for many people who are disabled and/or on a fixed income. I'm in introvert so I don't mind hibernating for most of the Winter but most people would not like that so driving is a must for most.

 

[JoeWras]

"Back in the day," the area where The Villages now sits, was considered unfit for anything but cattle. Too hot and humid, far far away from anything desirable (culture, shopping, beach, etc.)

Oh, that's really interesting! When you relocate, you remember stuff. On my flight down to Ft. Lauderdale in 1985, I remember the pilot telling us to look out the window and marvel at the ranches below, because "Florida is in the top 5 beef producing states." We were probably over The Villages about then. The Villages were only a few mobile homes at the time.

Today, FL is now somewhere in 10 or 15th place in beef.

I did a little searching and found out that Florida basically fed the rebel army during the Civil War. The center of production was about where The Villages are today. This helps explain why my experience just west and north of there found some of the most entrenched southern traditions I've ever experienced.

 

[ERD50]

The lowest I have been able to find for snow removal around here is $60 and they all want you to be on their route so you get it done every time it snows. $60 X 20 snow falls is $1200 per year. Not cheap for many people who are disabled and/or on a fixed income. I'm in introvert so I don't mind hibernating for most of the Winter but most people would not like that so driving is a must for most.

Well, we are talking about retirees in this context, so driving for most can be flexible. It's pretty rare for the streets to be bad for driving for more than one day.

This year has been exceptional, very little in the way of snow needing to be shoveled. But we pay just $40 for drive and sidewalk (I'm sure that will go up to $50 next season), and that's been 2x this season so far. Just $80.

In our old place, our house was towards the back of a deeper than wide 1 acre lot ( ~ 135' wide, ~ 300' deep), the driveway was ~ 170' long, plus another ~ 30' of double-triple width for parking - pretty large (one visitor said "That's not a driveway, that's a landing strip!"). paid $40 per plow for that (no sidewalk shoveling - just a rough truck plowing), $320/8-plow annual minimum. I kept a spreadsheet, and the highest annual bill was 2013-2014 season, 16 plows, $640 total. The average bill for the last 12 years was $373. And this was in a pretty upscale area. You should look some more into the competition, that seems high (or just too much plowing when not needed? An inch or two you can just shovel a path to the car doors).

-ERD50

 

[Freedom56]

We owned a condo in Florida that we bought in 2011 and sold it earlier this year. We never planned to buy one there but I was on a business trip in South East Florida in March of 2011 and noticed that residential real estate had collapsed. Some properties were selling at prices not seen since the early 80's. So one of our low ball offers was accepted at a high rise condo in Downtown West Palm beach on the intracoastal built in 2008 from the bank and we closed in September 2011. We were confident that we could eventually sell the property to a migrating snowbird. Our plan was to retire in 2015 and sell the property shortly thereafter when prices recovered. Here is our view of the good and bad.

The good:

Great views and possibly the nicest location in South East Florida around Palm Beach Island.

The prices for coastal properties are still much lower than Southern California.

The all cash property purchase was smooth and closing costs were extremely low. The all cash property sale was also a smooth transaction.

In our case, our building has a lot of investment bankers, asset managers, and fixed income specialist that work at Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and other Wall Street firms. There are regular get-togethers with unit owners sponsored by the association during the winter months. We remain in touch with many of the people we met in Florida. So it's not difficult to meet people with common interests.

Great beaches and fishing spots and no shortage of golf courses. Easy access to the Bahamas and other islands in the Caribbean.

Lots of places to dine-out, shop and visit along the coast.

Nice inter-city rail system (Brightline) connecting Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton, West Palm Beach and expanding to Orlando.

The Bad:

Just drive a few miles inland from the coast, the setting deteriorates. Sometimes you feel like you are entering a war zone. I guess this is why there are so many gated communities with their own security. The contrast between Palm Beach island and a few miles inland couldn't be starker.

Toll roads everywhere.

The homeless problem is getting worse every year.

The pungent smell from people smoking weed is everywhere downtown.

Burglaries and petty theft is accepted and police don't even bother to deal with that level of crime. Police are more focused on violent crime and grand larceny. Waking up at 2:00 AM to the sound of gunfire at street level followed by the sound of police cars swarming the area was becoming all too common (but that's part of downtown living).

Without the homestead exemption, our property taxes nearly quadrupled since 2011 and was higher than our home in Southern California in 2022.

Insurance costs skyrocketed even for newer construction and with hurricane impact glass. The problem is most properties in the risk pool are much older.

The heat an humidity is unbearable during the months of July and August. Most people have migrated north and the cities become ghost towns.

Healthcare facilities are below average. There are many unlicensed doctors, nurses, and dentists working in Florida. It's a much bigger problem than many other states. The people we know in Florida, still return to New York for their healthcare needs.

The cost of groceries and dining out is much more expensive than Southern California and other parts of the country.

In summary we have no regrets buying property in Florida and then turning around and selling it 12 year later for 6.8 times what we paid for it. The cost of maintaining a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo started out lower than maintaining a 5 bedroom/3 bath home with a pool in Southern California but 12 years later it cost about 40% more primarily due to property taxes and insurance.

 

[Out of Steam]

I asked: "Build out?" What do you mean? She said it is what it sounds like, all land used for development.

The county planners where I live in Virginia use similar terms, expecting the entire county to be developed in a suburban pattern by 2040.

It's among the issues that makes me doubt their interest and commitment to maintain older neighborhoods such as the one we live in.

 

[Out of Steam]

The pungent smell from people smoking weed is everywhere downtown.

This seems to be common in any urbanized area today. My wife and I recently stepped out of a small store until a customer who smelled strongly of weed left.

I'm starting to think that decriminalizing cannabis, instead of legalizing it, would have been sufficient.

 

[FLSUnFIRE]

The county planners where I live in Virginia use similar terms, expecting the entire county to be developed in a suburban pattern by 2040.

It's among the issues that makes me doubt their interest and commitment to maintain older neighborhoods such as the one we live in.

The thread is drifting but, to add to it, I really am starting to despise suburbs (especially exurbs). I like my urban townhouse and would be very happy on a homestead in a rural area (probably not FL as it would be the HOT center) but suburbs are the worst of both worlds IMO. Suburban land use is very inefficient, have to drive everywhere for everything along with everyone else along clogged arteries since there is no grid, yuck. City driving/parking may stink but if you live there, you walk or ride. Other than being "safe" and sterile for raising kids, I see no appeal.

 

[Out of Steam]

Well yes to "to each their own".

Shoveling snow? - I get that done for not a lot of money. $40 won't stop a hurricane. Sounds like the insurance rates due to hurricanes would cost more than a snow service?

Driving on snow/ice? - We are retired, we almost never would need to drive on snow and ice.

It's all personal preference/choice (well, family ties or other ties may make it not so much of choice for some), but I already get too much heat/humidity here in Northern IL, and the cold doesn't bother me as much as some, I enjoy some of it.

We moved from Maryland to Central Virginia in 2019. Even though I had lived here in the 1980s, I hadn't realized that the possibility of significant snowfall here had gone away in the intervening 30 years. Ice storms, which provide no pleasure at all, remain possible.

I miss it greatly. Along with some issues my wife has had with adjusting, it could convince us to leave.

 

[aaronc879]

Well, we are talking about retirees in this context, so driving for most can be flexible. It's pretty rare for the streets to be bad for driving for more than one day.

This year has been exceptional, very little in the way of snow needing to be shoveled. But we pay just $40 for drive and sidewalk (I'm sure that will go up to $50 next season), and that's been 2x this season so far. Just $80.

In our old place, our house was towards the back of a deeper than wide 1 acre lot ( ~ 135' wide, ~ 300' deep), the driveway was ~ 170' long, plus another ~ 30' of double-triple width for parking - pretty large (one visitor said "That's not a driveway, that's a landing strip!"). paid $40 per plow for that (no sidewalk shoveling - just a rough truck plowing), $320/8-plow annual minimum. I kept a spreadsheet, and the highest annual bill was 2013-2014 season, 16 plows, $640 total. The average bill for the last 12 years was $373. And this was in a pretty upscale area. You should look some more into the competition, that seems high (or just too much plowing when not needed? An inch or two you can just shovel a path to the car doors).

-ERD50

Location makes a big difference. Northern IL typically gets a lot less snow with higher temps and higher UV than where I am in central WI. Of course it would be much worse for people in northern MN for example. I have not seen a single person charging less than $60 per snow removal this year for anyone who does it for a living. I could maybe guilt someone into helping a partially disabled low income person get snow removed for $20-40.

 

[aaronc879]

This seems to be common in any urbanized area today. My wife and I recently stepped out of a small store until a customer who smelled strongly of weed left.

I'm starting to think that decriminalizing cannabis, instead of legalizing it, would have been sufficient.

Not legalizing it results in losing out on many millions of tax revenue. There was just an article the other day about how people from my state have given $40M in tax revenue to a neighboring state because they have legal weed and we don't so people drive there to get it. The other neighboring state is probably similar. That is a lot of lost revenue for no reason.

 

[aaronc879]

The heat an humidity is unbearable during the months of July and August. Most people have migrated north and the cities become ghost towns.

Still better than January and February in any upper midwest state. Just use the AC all the time instead of the heat. The difference is with the heat you don't have to worry about snow or ice. To me extreme heat/humidity is uncomfortable but extreme cold is literally painful.

 

[Amethyst]

Which sort of proves my point. In the 1970s it would've been hard for most Floridians to conceive of 100,000+ people eagerly moving to that part of Florida. But if you build it....

The Villages is paradise for a 55+ extrovert. Too crowded for me though. Too expensive too but perfect for many many people.

 

[latexman]

The pungent smell from people smoking weed is everywhere downtown.

Oh, that's a rather earthy cologne.

Sheldon Cooper
The Big Bang Theory

 

[Scuba]

The Villages is paradise for a 55+ extrovert. Too crowded for me though. Too expensive too but perfect for many many people.

I don’t think The Villages will appeal to us. I’m an extrovert but DH is not, and we aren’t big nightlife/party people. We enjoy entertaining in our home or going to neighbors’ homes or going out to dinner or a live performance, but aren’t big on happy hours, dancing, and bars in general. I think also most of the neighborhoods are high density and we like our space.

While we are in FL though, I think we will check it out. Doesn’t hurt and could learn something. So many people love it, we’re curious to see it.

 

[Scuba]

We owned a condo in Florida that we bought in 2011 and sold it earlier this year. We never planned to buy one there but I was on a business trip in South East Florida in March of 2011 and noticed that residential real estate had collapsed. Some properties were selling at prices not seen since the early 80's. So one of our low ball offers was accepted at a high rise condo in Downtown West Palm beach on the intracoastal built in 2008 from the bank and we closed in September 2011. We were confident that we could eventually sell the property to a migrating snowbird. Our plan was to retire in 2015 and sell the property shortly thereafter when prices recovered. Here is our view of the good and bad.

The good:

Great views and possibly the nicest location in South East Florida around Palm Beach Island.

The prices for coastal properties are still much lower than Southern California.

The all cash property purchase was smooth and closing costs were extremely low. The all cash property sale was also a smooth transaction.

In our case, our building has a lot of investment bankers, asset managers, and fixed income specialist that work at Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, and other Wall Street firms. There are regular get-togethers with unit owners sponsored by the association during the winter months. We remain in touch with many of the people we met in Florida. So it's not difficult to meet people with common interests.

Great beaches and fishing spots and no shortage of golf courses. Easy access to the Bahamas and other islands in the Caribbean.

Lots of places to dine-out, shop and visit along the coast.

Nice inter-city rail system (Brightline) connecting Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton, West Palm Beach and expanding to Orlando.

The Bad:

Just drive a few miles inland from the coast, the setting deteriorates. Sometimes you feel like you are entering a war zone. I guess this is why there are so many gated communities with their own security. The contrast between Palm Beach island and a few miles inland couldn't be starker.

Toll roads everywhere.

The homeless problem is getting worse every year.

The pungent smell from people smoking weed is everywhere downtown.

Burglaries and petty theft is accepted and police don't even bother to deal with that level of crime. Police are more focused on violent crime and grand larceny. Waking up at 2:00 AM to the sound of gunfire at street level followed by the sound of police cars swarming the area was becoming all too common (but that's part of downtown living).

Without the homestead exemption, our property taxes nearly quadrupled since 2011 and was higher than our home in Southern California in 2022.

Insurance costs skyrocketed even for newer construction and with hurricane impact glass. The problem is most properties in the risk pool are much older.

The heat an humidity is unbearable during the months of July and August. Most people have migrated north and the cities become ghost towns.

Healthcare facilities are below average. There are many unlicensed doctors, nurses, and dentists working in Florida. It's a much bigger problem than many other states. The people we know in Florida, still return to New York for their healthcare needs.

The cost of groceries and dining out is much more expensive than Southern California and other parts of the country.

In summary we have no regrets buying property in Florida and then turning around and selling it 12 year later for 6.8 times what we paid for it. The cost of maintaining a 2 bedroom 2 bath condo started out lower than maintaining a 5 bedroom/3 bath home with a pool in Southern California but 12 years later it cost about 40% more primarily due to property taxes and insurance.

Very interesting and helpful information, thank you. Of everything you listed, the insurance concerns us the most. We know property taxes are higher but with zero state income tax, I would think the overall tax burden is still lower for most.

We will definitely be evaluating the homeless and crime situation. I can’t imagine it’s worse than urban areas of Southern CA. Stealing property worth $950 or less has been basically overlooked here since Prop 47 passed.

 

[Freedom56]

Very interesting and helpful information, thank you. Of everything you listed, the insurance concerns us the most. We know property taxes are higher but with zero state income tax, I would think the overall tax burden is still lower for most.

We will definitely be evaluating the homeless and crime situation. I can’t imagine it’s worse than urban areas of Southern CA. Stealing property worth $950 or less has been basically overlooked here since Prop 47 passed.

Well the city certainly tried to drive the homeless away with creative ideas like playing "Baby Shark" and "Raining Tacos" in a continuous loop from 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM. But they just moved about 50 feet away from the speakers and became even more aggressive.

 

[Badger]

Well the city certainly tried to drive the homeless away with creative ideas like playing "Baby Shark" and "Raining Tacos" in a continuous loop from 10:00 PM to 5:00 AM. But they just moved about 50 feet away from the speakers and became even more aggressive.

Reminds me of the loud rock songs played on helicopters in Viet Nam during attacks.
Many cities have a noise ordinance that ranges from around 55dB to as much as 80dB depending on whether residential or commercial. I appears the sound level of the "Baby Shark" song is considerably more. To make a comparison a stock car horn is around 110 dB. I guess the city can disregard their ordinances.
This kind of problem exists in most cities that have to deal with homeless people. I have yet to hear about successful solutions.

Cheers!