marko
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2011
- Messages
- 8,482
BTW Greece, LBYM.
I'd be happy with LWYM! (within)
BTW Greece, LBYM.
Cramer brought up an interesting angle.
If Russia and China bring economic aid to Greece, as they are doing in Venezuela, Greece may leave NATO, which sounds unthinkable but Russia is preoccupied about NATO encroaching on its sphere of influence so getting Greece to leave NATO would be big.
Then does Merkel want to be known as the German chancellor who lost Greece out of NATO?
Cramer brought up an interesting angle.
If Russia and China bring economic aid to Greece, as they are doing in Venezuela, Greece may leave NATO, which sounds unthinkable but Russia is preoccupied about NATO encroaching on its sphere of influence so getting Greece to leave NATO would be big.
Then does Merkel want to be known as the German chancellor who lost Greece out of NATO?
Is Greece just the 'canary in the mine'? I recall hearing about the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). So is the market responding not just to the relatively small Greek economy, but to the sum of the PIGS?
-ERD50
IMO, they are not going to let Greece off the hook to keep the others in line.. they do not seem as bad, so just let Greece go to save the others...
Actually it is the PIIGS(Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain). Ireland has already taken its medicine and is well on the way to recovery so I doubt they will be too sympathetic towards Greece.
Ireland eyes lower deficit, quashes EU bank debt deal | Reuters
Meanwhile, Germans took their holidays in Southern Europe but didn't spend much money, for instance, bother to take back home €40 bottles of Italian wine.
Then does Merkel want to be known as the German chancellor who lost Greece out of NATO?
On a practical level--no. Greece contributes very little.Is that important to Merkel or EU or even to NATO? I don't think it is or matters that much.
A number of academics, including former Archibishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, have written to us to support the Greeks and calling on the European union to recommit to the principles of democracy:
Over the past five years, the EU and the IMF have imposed unprecedented austerity on Greece. It has failed badly. The economy has shrunk by 26%, unemployment has risen to 27%, youth unemployment to 60% and, the debt-to-GDP ratio jumped from 120% to 180%. The economic catastrophe has led to a humanitarian crisis, with more than 3 million people on or below the poverty line.
Against this background, the Greek people elected the Syriza-led government on 25 January with a clear mandate to put an end to austerity. In the ensuing negotiations, the government made it clear that the future of Greece is in the Eurozone and the EU. The lenders, however, insisted on the continuation of their failed recipe, refused to discuss a write down of the debt – which the IMF is on record as considering unviable – and finally, on 26 June, issued an ultimatum to Greece by means of a non-negotiable package that would entrench austerity. This was followed by a suspension of liquidity to the Greek banks and the imposition of capital controls.
. . .that completely ignores how the situation developed. Understanding the causes of the failures in the Greek economy is key to a real solution that endures and ultimately benefits the people of Greece in the long term.One account of the past 5 years:
Oh Greece certainly deserves its share of the blame.
But the medicine imposed on Greece has caused a depression in the country and they were imposing things like higher taxes on tourist services -- tourism is the #1 industry in Greece -- and taxes on food and medicine.
How does that help the country regain it's economic footing? ....
If there are sound economic reasons for imposing more austerity, the creditors would be more defensible. But a lot of it looks punitive ...
Tough question, but what is the alternative? Are the Ants just supposed to say "oh, you poor Grasshoppers didn't save up for winter, here have some of our stash"?
I don't know that the actions are meant to be 'punitive', but sometimes you reap what you sow (or maybe better for this case, 'you don't reap what you don't sow'). If Greece doesn't suffer for its actions, then what other country will want to work to tighten their belts? They'll just count on a bail-out.
In the not-so-long run, I think the 'tough love' approach will actually be the least punitive approach of all. Without it, the problem will continue to snowball and even more people will be affected even more harshly.
It's similar to our SS system. I understand we could make very minor changes now that will greatly improve things in the long run, but more likely we will wait until it is a crisis, and takes a painful adjustment.
-ERD50
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All this may add up to way more than it would have cost them to give Greece better terms.
Yes, it is late. But "enabling" the Greek system to go on in its present state for even longer will be worse yet. This should have stopped a long time ago.Perhaps it's better to "enforce" austerity at a much earlier phase, rather than to keep throwing money at a dysfunctional system. Though it's a bit late for that now...
The sooner the public starts directing their anger and disgust at their own pols, the faster the healing will begin. And, Tsipras (or, more likely, his successor) probably needs for the public to feel the pain, see the situation as it really is, in order to have a mandate to fix their problems. Giving the Greeks a fresh needle and a fix ain't the road to prosperity. And it sure wasn't "austerity" that is the root cause of their present woes--quite the opposite."We can't take any more of this, so we have to keep saying no to the EU masters."
"The EU can't afford to let us fail so we should continue to say no and they will blink and give us a better deal."
The Greek people have suffered. Look at the unemployment numbers and the figures for how much the GDP has shrunk, during these past 5 years when they abided by the troika's terms.
Do they deserve to keep suffering? Maybe but really the question should be more what would be the most economically effective way to make Greece close its deficits and return towards growth?