Knowing when to move on

I hear you R@40, I'm not neccesarily closed to the idea of my own business, but like a tattoo, I just haven't found anything I'm sure I want to be married to. Funny, I have a friend who is taking me out to lunch today to discuss his "business opportunity". It's not a pyramid scheme, it's muti-level marketing! Let me see, the one where they won't tell you anything about the business until you go to the group think session is Amway, right? Or is that scientology? :D

What leaves me chained to the corp world is I have a 10 month old with a lot of health issues. Now would not be a time to leave good health insurance behind. Plus all my succesful business owner friends seem to put in 80 hours a week...This line of thought is what led me to ER and megasaving/investing. I figured it was the next best thing to owning my own business.
 
Martha said:
When I used to hire associates, I was uncomfortable with those who went from job to job.

Martha,

I don't mean to hijack Laurence's thread, but law firm partners are notorious for their unwillingness to take risks and share the wealth. Many law firm associates work very hard for their firms, billing enormous amounts of hours at high rates (this is different than just simply showing up and expecting to get paid top dollar). In so doing, they sacrifice their youth to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for the partners. When bonus (or salary re-evaluation) time comes around, law firm partners often stiff those same associates out of money they earned based on various flimsy excuses (despite record profits per partner). After 5-7 years (and millions of dollars in collected fees later), many associates are shown the door when they have no clients for their efforts. Because associates are often shown no loyalty by their law firm employers, it should not come as a surprise that they become "mercenaries".
 
Jay, remember Brewer's $h!t thread?

Like hijacking Laurence, we hijacked Brewer's thread on the same issue: jumping ship for a different job.

I never liked the large law firm model that presumes not all associates will make it to partnership. Requires failure no matter how good the associates perform. . Certainly bad for motivation and bad for loyalty.

I will say I am glad not to have the responsibility of hiring and firing any more.
 
Yes, I remember that particular thread, but point taken. Unfortunately, I was not just referring to the large law firm model -- such behavior occurs at all law firm levels. In fact, small firm lawyers can be even more stingy than their large firm counterparts.

Regardless, I think Laurence should test the waters. He has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Loyalty is great, as is gaining high-quality experience (even if you're being overworked in the process), but it comes down to one's own honest sense of self-worth. He shouldn't be afraid to move on just because some employer down the road (and not the one who might be offering him a job right here, right now, for more money) might think that he's a mercenary. In fact, he might garner some respect from a potential employer in answering the question "so why did you leave?" with the answer "more money." That response sends the message loud and clear that he knows his value, and won't hesitate to leave if he believes someone else values him more.
 
The funniest thing about that thread (in retrospect) is that I lasted almost exactly 6 months, vested the 401k money, and pulled the trigger.  They still haven't replaced me (4 months and counting) or the guy who left before me (10 months ago).  I got a call from my closest former colleague last week asking if I knew of any suitable jobs because he has finally had enough.

@ssholes.  All mgmt ever really had to do was pay a little more and not treat the rank and file like developmentally disabled kindergarten students.  Instead they will be continually paying up to hire more MBAs, CFAs, credentialled actuaries, etc.
 
Jay_Gatsby said:
Yn fact, he might garner some respect from a potential employer in answering the question "so why did you leave?" with the answer "more money." That response sends the message loud and clear that he knows his value, and won't hesitate to leave if he believes someone else values him more.


I would be hesitant to hire a guy who says this into a law firm--where we are looking for potential future partners.

But given today's environment and that Laurence has been at his job 5 years, I wouldn't worry to much about him being cast as a mercenary.

Quote from Brewer:
@ssholes. All mgmt ever really had to do was pay a little more and not treat the rank and file like developmentally disabled kindergarten students. Instead they will be continually paying up to hire more MBAs, CFAs, credentialled actuaries, etc.

Looks like you made the right decision in jumping ship. :)
 
I don’t disagree with anything others have said.  I’m sure the messages all come from valid experiences.  But a lot of the advice doesn’t ring true for my career.  I think the factors that determine the best option of staying or leaving are very different depending on your career choice, your experience level, your location, etc.  Based on my own experience, here are some thoughts I’ve had while reading this thread so far.

On starting your own business to avoid having a boss:  That isn’t always an option.  If your career interest requires a multi-million or billion dollar infrastructure, it’s hard to go it alone.  For example, if you really want to work on avionics system designs, it’s hard to set up a business in your garage.  Plus, some people would rather deal with a boss and/or co-workers than to deal with customers.  “Customer” is just another name for “boss” to the independent.  If it works for you, go for it.  But it doesn’t work for everyone.

On company loyalty:  Loyalty might make sense in a small company where the loyalty is to the company founder who is likely to be there tomorrow.  But the half life of large corporate managers is short.  Corporate memory does not go beyond immediate management, so loyalty is as likely to be forgotten as rewarded.

On the value of staying for pension benefits:  Benefit packages need to be examined closely.  Pension benefits are seldom worth staying around for, but if you are near a milestone in benefits or have spent enough years at the company, they can be significant enough that they should be considered.  Also, if you do consider another position, you should be armed with specific information on what your existing package is worth so that you negotiate the best possible deal.   

On the value of staying in one place:  If you are building a career – not just bringing home a paycheck from a job – it is probably important to you that you have some accomplishments.  Sometimes, the way you get things done is related more to your intimate knowledge of the informal mechanisms of the workplace rather than to your position.  When you start at a new place, you don’t know who the guru in the lab is, who can cut through the paper hurdles, what executive is most likely to sponsor new ideas rather than stifle them, etc.  It takes time to develop relationships and become as productive as you were in your old place.  Of course, if you’ve lost effectiveness in your current situation, this does not apply.

:D :D :D
 
Thanks for the link to brewer12345's thread, that was before my time.

Brewer, you are now my office hell brudda, you already said it all!

My gut has spoken, after sending the resume and cover letter and recieving my "tracking number" from the new place, I became quite excited, no trepidation. It's time. :)
 
((^+^)) SG said:
“Customer” is just another name for “boss” to the independent.

I never considered my clients my "boss" since they never told me when, how, or why to do my job. I am the shepherd and they are the sheep.

When you hate your boss, the only way to get rid of him is for you to quit and lose your job.

When you hate one of your customers, you tell them to take a hike, and you still have your job.
 
Martha said:
I would be hesitant to hire a guy who says this into a law firm--where we are looking for potential future partners.

It depends on how s/he puts it in the interview. If your firm allows a potential partner to keep more of what s/he collects, that would be reason enough to move in the minds of those with portable business. Partnership loyalty is nice, but when $50,000-$100,000 a year in additional income is involved, it has a tendency to go out the window.

I was speaking more in the non-legal sense, where someone has a unique skill set, and yet his/her employer isn't paying for it.
 
Didn't change jobs much. Never for money, only for interesting work, responsibility, and to work with outstanding people. I did turn down an offer once, thinking it was way too low. Would have made 10M+ in 5-8 years if I took it. All's well that ends well. For me, the keys were increasing responsibility and being aligned with the right people at the right time. I was looking to score big, not for incremental salary increases.
 
retire@40 said:
I never considered my clients my "boss" since they never told me when, how, or why to do my job.  I am the shepherd and they are the sheep.

When you hate your boss, the only way to get rid of him is for you to quit and lose your job.

When you hate one of your customers, you tell them to take a hike, and you still have your job.

I never "hated" any of my customers, but I'd have been way ahead if I had
told a few to "take a hike". It seemed to me that customers were too
hard to find to then turn around and send them packing. Was always hoping to turn the 'bad"
customers into "good" customers. Didn't work.

JG
 
Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

UPDATE: Got a call back from the one company I applied to, I'm doing a phone interview. Any suggestions on what to say, what not to say? Wish me luck!

(Anyone else here feel like the blog their life on this forum? Like I told REWahoo, I can quit anytime! ;) )
 
Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

Laurence said:
UPDATE:  Got a call back from the one company I applied to, I'm doing a phone interview.  Any suggestions on what to say, what not to say?  Wish me luck!(

Yep. Don't say you are wearing a pink thong. Other than that, I can't think of anything helpful.

ha
 
Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

Laurence said:
UPDATE:  Got a call back from the one company I applied to, I'm doing a phone interview.  Any suggestions on what to say
Laurance,
Most phone screens are to validate what you have sent them in your resume and to gain a sense of who you are.  Have a simple but straightforward answer ready for the question "why are you looking and what is you expect from a new employer".  (hint answer should emphasize personal development, opportunities for growth--no mud slinging at current employer).
Good luck
nwsteve
 
My sister worked through some of these last year. I would recommend some books from the library. Some have typical interview questions that you could work through.
 
Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

nwsteve said:
(hint answer should emphasize personal development, opportunities for growth--no mud slinging at current employer).

Amen.  Also mention that you're a "self-starter," a "team player," and that you look forward to working in a "dynamic, growing company with a vision for the future."
 
Re: Knowing when to move on UPDATE

Patrick said:
Amen. Also mention that you're a "self-starter," a "team player," and that you look forward to working in a "dynamic, growing company with a vision for the future."

ARG! LOL, who says I'm notmulti-lingual, I know American, baseball, poker, business/phseudo-speak.... ;)
 
Laurrence, a phone interview is basically to make sure that you are worth bringing in to talk to in person. Having said that, I would probably try to have my pitch in order for the phone interview so that you can put out a consistent message throughout the process.

You'll do fine; you're an articulate guy and they wouldn't be calling you if they didn't think you had the skills. I find that at least half of the interview process is to find out 1) will you fit in 2) are you hungry enough and 3) will you be a pain in the @ss to work with.
 
Patrick,

You are making me sick with all the Buzz Words......... :p

After 30+ years of that crap, I am ready to never have to hear them again.
 
Good luck Laurence!

Once your resume is "out there" I imagine you'll get a lot of these calls. My husband did during the time he was thinking about moving. Nothing struck his fancy though and he had a couple of offers. At least now he feels like he's happy as he can be where he is at the moment.

So take your time and see who is interested. I'll bet a lot of folks will be.
 
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