Long Term Care for Canadians

[Hyperborea]

There was some discussion a while back on LTC and LTC-insurance.  At least one person (IIRC Jane) was wondering about this for Canada and there are other Canucks here too so this might be of interest.  Over XMas I was involved a bit with the LTC arrangements for my grandmother who is in her mid-90's.  She had been living on her own (she liked it that way - very independent) but has become unable to fully look after herself anymore.

A private room in a quite nice facility is ~CDN$2000 / month.  A semi-private room is ~CDN$1400 / month OR all of your income (pensions, government pensions, etc.) minus ~CDN$110 / month.  In the worst case that means that you will be fed and cared for and have CDN$110 / month for clothes, haircuts, snacks, knicknacks, etc.  The biggest difference between the facilities is the layout of the semi-private rooms with the worst ones basically being more like a hospital room with a curtain down the middle.  The better ones arrange them to have a common door and be split by the shared washroom.  There were some old married couples that shared a semi-private set of rooms - one room was the shared bedroom and the other was set up as a sitting room.

These costs are such that I don't think that a Canadian FIREee would want or need LTC insurance.

 

[Cut-Throat]

In the worst case that means that you will be fed and cared for and have CDN$110 / month for clothes, haircuts, snacks, knicknacks, etc. The biggest difference between the facilities is the layout of the semi-private rooms with the worst ones basically being more like a hospital room with a curtain down the middle.

Nope! - Just shoot me! - I'm not living like that even if I can afford it.

Modern society has to figure out how to die. Admiral Nimitz got it right and Reagan got it wrong!

 

[haha]

Nope! - Just shoot me! - I'm not living like that even if I can afford it.

Modern society has to figure out how to die. Admiral Nimitz got it right and Reagan got it wrong!

Cut-Throat, I'm with you again. I hope the the ice-floe will be there when I need it. Both my grandfathers died with their boots on. I remember them as strong tough guys, not withered shadows. My Dad didn't do quite as well. But still no diapers, no morphine, no babbling.

I hope I have the same luck. I think a supply of Viagra, and a ticket to the Mustang Ranch would be the best. I think I'll be sure my SWR lays aside $10,000 for that Act Three.

Mikey

 

[charlie]

When my time comes, I hope it is via an 18
wheeler as I step off the curb.

Cheers,

Charlie

 

[Calgary_Girl]

Hi Hyperborea.

The rates you qouted must be for Ontario? In Alberta, LTC is under $50/day for a private room ($48.30 to be exact). I think I'll stay in AB.

 

[Hyperborea]

Nope! - Just shoot me! - I'm not living like that even if I can afford it.

Hmmm, so where is that line Cut-Throat? There were people in that assisted care facility who are perfectly fine except that they can no longer handle some physical tasks like cooking and need assistance for other physically demanding tasks? Do you want to go when you can no longer cook? How about going when your knees are shot and you can no longer wade into the trout stream?

Now, not all of the older folks there are in that situation. A lot of people suffer from some sort of dementia of varying degrees. Some just have become very forgetful and don't remember to eat and take their medications. They still enjoy the life they have. If mild dementia is the point where you should be "taken out" then I suspect that at least a few posters to this board are ready to go.

 

[Hyperborea]

The rates you qouted must be for Ontario?  In Alberta, LTC is under $50/day for a private room ($48.30 to be exact).

Yup, those are the Ontario rates. A very long way from the $80K / year and up rates you hear about in the US. Also, no need for 80 year old couples to divorce just so that one doesn't eat the entire savings of both of them.

 

[Jane]

The question I always have regarding LTC is when should you purchase it? 50's? 60's? Or in your 70's? Just before you started your retirement whenever that is? I think the LTC insurance is cheaper, the younger you are at the time of purchase.

So far, none of the older generations in my family purchased any kind of LTC. In our case, I think it may be a cultural thing. It seems that in our family, we are expected to take care of our elders at home instead of letting them live in a care facility.

Both of my grandfathers died at home due to lung cancer (both were smokers). Both of my grandmothers are still alive and not needing much help (they are in their 70's). One of them still go to work 6 days a week and do her own housekeeping and cooking (but not landscaping work). The other one is living with one of her daughters but still do the cooking and housekeeping. I have one grand Auntie (my grandma's aunt) who is approaching mid 90's and can still move around without aid. None of them have LTC.

I myself plan for a healthy and very long life (looking at my family history). I probably will outlive my husband and I am not sure I want to burden my children with the necessity of taking care of a very old woman so I will most likely purchase LTC when the time comes.

Jane

 

[brewer12345]

Personally, I would say "never". It isn't clear that LTC insurance is anything like a good deal, even from the point of view of risk transference. Companies can raise premiums any time they like (some have done so by 50+%!), and if you lapse the product you get nothing. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I think it is not unrealistic to self-insure if you are a FIREee.

 

[sgeeeee]

Personally, I would say "never".  It isn't clear that LTC insurance is anything like a good deal, even from the point of view of risk transference.  Companies can raise premiums any time they like (some have done so by 50+%!), and if you lapse the product you get nothing.  Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.  I think it is not unrealistic to self-insure if you are a FIREee.

I shopped LTC about a year or so ago and came to the same conclusion, Brewer. Consumer reports devoted an article reviewing LTC at about the time I was shopping and came to the same conclusion. I decided that I would wait 4 or 5 years and review this decision again. But this is another issue that is very personal. Some people just couldn't sleep at night without LTC for themselves and their family. You can't argue with how they feel.

Also, if I remember correctly, a couple of the posters on this board had managed to buy LTC policies with one lump-sum, up front payment. That would certainly get around the premium escalation problem.

 

[brewer12345]

I shopped LTC about a year or so ago and came to the same conclusion, Brewer.  Consumer reports devoted an article reviewing LTC at about the time I was shopping and came to the same conclusion.  I decided that I would wait 4 or 5 years and review this decision again.  But this is another issue that is very personal.  Some people just couldn't sleep at night without LTC for themselves and their family.  You can't argue with how they feel.

Also, if I remember correctly, a couple of the posters on this board had managed to buy LTC policies with one lump-sum, up front payment.  That would certainly get around the premium escalation problem.

My impression is that most FIREees are not totally risk averse, at least those of us depending on an investment stash to carry us through.

The single premium LTC products are mostly of the market now, since a lot of companies have exited the LTC insurance market and those remaining prefer to sell products where they can take it out of the policyholders' hide if the insurer guesses wrong about pricing.

 

[Hyperborea]

The question I always have regarding LTC is when should you purchase it? 50's? 60's? Or in your 70's? Just before you started your retirement whenever that is? I think the LTC insurance is cheaper, the younger you are at the time of purchase.
<snip>
I myself plan for a healthy and very long life (looking at my family history). I probably will outlive my husband and I am not sure I want to burden my children with the necessity of taking care of a very old woman so I will most likely purchase LTC when the time comes.

Jane,

I don't think that it makes any sense for a Canadian to purchase LTC.  Particularly for one in their 30's.  If there is some tremendous change in the system when you are in your 50's or 60's then it might make sense to reconsider the issue.

However, as I pointed out, the way things are now you could in your worst case situation give up your CPP/OAS/other pensions (minus $110/month for personal items) and get quality LTC.  If you've got a decent asset base (as most FIREees will) or income stream then it would be better to pay $2000 / month and get a private room in a quality LTC facility (current Ontario rates). This is likely to be well under the yearly amounts most FIREees plan to retire on. It is long way from the $60K / year plus that US residents are facing.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Hmmm, so where is that line Cut-Throat?  There were people in that assisted care facility who are perfectly fine except that they can no longer handle some physical tasks like cooking and need assistance for other physically demanding tasks?  Do you want to go when you can no longer cook?  How about going when your knees are shot and you can no longer wade into the trout stream?

Now, not all of the older folks there are in that situation.  A lot of people suffer from some sort of dementia of varying degrees.  Some just have become very forgetful and don't remember to eat and take their medications.  They still enjoy the life they have.  If mild dementia is the point where you should be "taken out" then I suspect that at least a few posters to this board are ready to go.

Where is my Line ?

I'll know when I reach it. I'm not a very good patient.

My guess is that my line will be long before I can no longer cook for myself.

 

[Hyperborea]

My guess is that my line will be long before I can no longer cook for myself.

I know some guys who've never been able to cook for themselves. I guess they should go now?

More seriously though, I think it's difficult to put arbitray lines on when it's "over". If you've got arthritis in your hands and can't perform the physical tasks of cooking do you want to go?

This issue seems kind of like being a teenager and not being able to understand how people over 50 or even over 30 still keep on living. I'm 40 and I never thought that I'd get here but I have and I don't want it to stop yet. I imagine that when I'm 80 it will be the same.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Like I said, I'll know when I get there. I am not putting a line on anything right now.

I was just guessing that it would be long before I can cook for myself.

 

[Zipper]

You are right Hyper.

Jane needs to invest $0 in LTC in Canada.

BTW are you coming back to ON or BC when you retire?

6 months in ON, and 6 months CA, or TX, or FL?

 

[Hyperborea]

BTW are you coming back to ON or BC when you retire?

6 months in ON, and 6 months CA, or TX, or FL?

I'm looking at about another 6 years in Silicon Valley followed by an as of yet undetermined amount of time travelling the world and not having a permanent home - possibly somewhere between 5 and 20 years. After that we're not sure where we'll end up. Toronto is high on the list but no definite plans. Probably won't be taking winter trips to the same location - Texas isn't terribly appealing and I don't have any plaid leisure slacks so Florida is out.

 

[Jane]

I am not thinking of buying LTC in my 30's. Most likely I will have to seriously consider buying LTC policy when I start my retirement (in 20-25 years). We don't know what happens to Canadian health and social programs by then.

Jane