More 15% ethanol gasoline on the way

[MRG]

They sell it as regular here because of altitude. I need to buy a tank for DW's Rubicon and it will probably last half the summer; rest of the time no gas required. [emoji4]

 

[ivinsfan]

Right inside my cars fuel filler door is a big red circle with a slash going across it. E15 is behind the red slash. I get the point.

E15 rules for dummies .in reality they don't want lawsuits.

 

[Sunset]

Just checked my manual and my pickup - GMC Sierra, will accept up to 15%. I’ve never seen more than 10% and I mostly try to use Costco gas which is Top Tier.

I just filled up at Costco. All the lines were 4->5 cars waiting for the spots to open.

I think Top Tier gas refers to the additives to keep the engine clean and it can still have ethanol in it.

Next week when I fill up the other car at Costco, I'm going to look for the stickers of disappointment (10%)

 

[Koolau]

I'm really surprised at the virtual unanimous agreement on this subject. I'm surprised at the lack of odor of bacon - not even a nudge from the mods. I guess we're just all in agreement.

To (more or less summarize from memory):

1) Additional ethanol will not save money - any price improvement (minimal) will be lost because ethanol has 1/3 less heat content than petroleum gasoline.

2) Ethanol (arguably) requires more energy (cradle to grave) to produce than it delivers to the wheels of a car. Keep in mind, we no longer grow corn on farm land - we grow corn in a fertilizer cocktail with depleted soil as the substrate.

3) It's a political "stunt" which none of us here buys (and likely, not too many folks who use gasoline will buy either.)

4) There are potential issues with using this much ethanol in engines not designed for that much ethanol.

5) Food prices are on (and will likely remain on) a tear for a while. "Burning" corn in our cars is probably not going to help that. (Yes, I know, we don't eat field corn but it does feed most of the animals we enjoy eating.)

6) Shocker - most of us believe "subsides - bad"

I've never seen this kind of agreement on any subject I can recall - especially not one with (apparently I'm wrong) potential political overtones.

What am I missing?

 

[Fermion]

I disagree that we have never had full agreement on anything before.

 

[Jerry1]

I just filled up at Costco. All the lines were 4->5 cars waiting for the spots to open.

I think Top Tier gas refers to the additives to keep the engine clean and it can still have ethanol in it.

Next week when I fill up the other car at Costco, I'm going to look for the stickers of disappointment (10%)

My sentence structure wasn’t great. Costco gas is definitely 10% ethanol, at least here in Michigan. But it is also top tier gas which I prefer and the manual for my truck recommends.

 

[Tetto]

Ethanol has lower energy density, cars will get less MPG, go less distance on a tankful, requiring more frequent fill-ups. More pollution and higher overall fuel consumption. So friggin stupid.

 

[ivinsfan]

Why is there no bacon? We have pretty much stayed respectful. We have stayed on topic discussing the merits of E15. I wish all the threads about important topics could stay that way. Alas, most of them go down the drain.

 

[travelover]

Ethanol has lower energy density, cars will get less MPG, go less distance on a tankful, requiring more frequent fill-ups. More pollution and higher overall fuel consumption. So friggin stupid.

What about the oxygenization function of ethanol in creating more complete combustion and less pollution?

 

[Koolau]

I disagree that we have never had full agreement on anything before.

Finally! Some disagreement!

 

[Chuckanut]

Just curious.... has anybody managed to power a car with ethanol made from corn squeezins? From my one experience with the results of fermenting and distilling corn squeezins, I think we might get 100+ mpg from the stuff.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Just curious.... has anybody managed to power a car with ethanol made from corn squeezins? From my one experience with the results of fermenting and distilling corn squeezins, I think we might get 100+ mpg from the stuff.

My buddy has a still at his ranch in the black hills of South Dakota. We make some of the recipe once in a while when I go to visit. Our trucks don't run worth a darn on it, but we do.

We prefer rye to corn. Takes some practice.

 

[marko]

Just curious.... has anybody managed to power a car with ethanol made from corn squeezins? From my one experience with the results of fermenting and distilling corn squeezins, I think we might get 100+ mpg from the stuff.

How long your pistons last might be another story.

 

[Tetto]

What about the oxygenization function of ethanol in creating more complete combustion and less pollution?

Are you referring to Adiabatics or stoichometry? I used to work in fuel cell research, vaporizing all kinds of fuels including ethanol. It was always a lower potential fuel than gasoline, nat gas, etc. it never went anywhere. Natural gas reformation was number one. Maybe someone found a better methodology?

 

[travelover]

Are you referring to Adiabatics or stoichometry? I used to work in fuel cell research, vaporizing all kinds of fuels including ethanol. It was always a lower potential fuel than gasoline, nat gas, etc. it never went anywhere. Natural gas reformation was number one. Maybe someone found a better methodology?

I'm talking about pollution emissions from internal combustion engines with and without ethanol in the fuel.

 

[NW-Bound]

Why is there no bacon? We have pretty much stayed respectful. We have stayed on topic discussing the merits of E15. I wish all the threads about important topics could stay that way. Alas, most of them go down the drain.

Bacon goes well with ethanol, in the 6% to 12.5% mix.

I am talking about the ethanol found in beer.

Don't know about y'all, but it has been warm where I am. It's currently 85F, and I remember I put a bottle of Kilt Lifter to chill in the fridge. I am going to drink it soon.

 

[38Chevy454]

Just curious.... has anybody managed to power a car with ethanol made from corn squeezins? From my one experience with the results of fermenting and distilling corn squeezins, I think we might get 100+ mpg from the stuff.

Race cars run on alcohol. Tends to be methanol, as opposed to ethanol. Alcohol does make more power, but it takes approx twice the volume of alcohol compared to gasoline. It has a high equivalent octane value so you can run higher compression ratio which gives the additional power. The alcohol has to be near 100%.

Brazil also has many pure alcohol powered vehicles. Alcohol is tough on fuel systems because it is more corrosive than gasoline. It is also tougher for cold starting since it doesn't vaporize as easily at low temperatures. The basic problem though is that alcohol has approx half the energy density. So the fuel system has to be capable of twice the volume. Plus bigger fuel tank if you want same distance out of a tank.

 

[RunningBum]

Halfway thru Missouri. No E15 sightings yet. I shouldn't be surprised, it's not like it was going to happen overnight.

As an aside, I-64 thru St Louis in the evening is crazy! Traffic wasn't heavy, it's just that I saw at least a couple of dozen cars that had to be going 100+, weaving in and around the rest of us going about 65. A few in packs, so I guess this was some of the local boys having fun. Glad to be out of that!

 

[Tetto]

I'm talking about pollution emissions from internal combustion engines with and without ethanol in the fuel.

Ah right. My original comment is accurate then; ethanol actually degrades the energy density of gasoline, making it necessary to fill up more frequently to get the same range as without the additive. More frequent fill ups by everyone=a $hit ton of extra pollutants, regardless of the adiabatics. If they are that concerned, they should inject H2 into the effluent, this will bring Nox down to almost nothing.

 

[Andre1969]

Helps sell fertlizer to grow more corn. Source of most of fertilizer?

Politicians?

 

[Koolau]

When I first moved here, I was surprised to learn that we actually import crude oil and refine it to distillate products - primarily gasoline and diesel. (I had guessed that we imported refined distillates instead - wrong.) Therefore, I assume we also import the ethanol to blend with gasoline since we have E10 at the pumps. Going to 15% ethanol might "stretch" the gasoline, but could not possibly be economical. Shipping even more ethanol 2500 miles over the Pacific would add even more to the cost of our motor fuel since ethanol doesn't provide as much energy/volume.

Maybe there is some reason to use E10 ("pollution" control??) but it sure is not about reducing the cost per mile for drivers - especially not with our additional shipping costs. YMMV

 

[USGrant1962]

Ah right. My original comment is accurate then; ethanol actually degrades the energy density of gasoline, making it necessary to fill up more frequently to get the same range as without the additive. More frequent fill ups by everyone=a $hit ton of extra pollutants, regardless of the adiabatics. If they are that concerned, they should inject H2 into the effluent, this will bring Nox down to almost nothing.

The other thing is that E15 has been banned in summertime because the alcohol contributes to smog. Apparently this order lifted that ban as well - so screw air quality.

 

[ls99]

Politicians?

Earlier I noted, only if they are planted.
Otherwise they spew noxious CO2 at prodigious rates.

 

[ERD50]

When I first moved here, I was surprised to learn that we actually import crude oil and refine it to distillate products - primarily gasoline and diesel. (I had guessed that we imported refined distillates instead - wrong.) Therefore, I assume we also import the ethanol to blend with gasoline since we have E10 at the pumps. Going to 15% ethanol might "stretch" the gasoline, but could not possibly be economical. Shipping even more ethanol 2500 miles over the Pacific would add even more to the cost of our motor fuel since ethanol doesn't provide as much energy/volume.

Maybe there is some reason to use E10 ("pollution" control??) but it sure is not about reducing the cost per mile for drivers - especially not with our additional shipping costs. YMMV

I'm guessing (too lazy to search right now), that sugar cane provides plenty of feedstock to produce ethanol on the islands.


Oh, the other part of that is, by doing the refining, they get gasoline and diesel for cars/truck, and jet fuel (essentially Kerosene), and probably other useful stuff like asphalt for roads. This is apparently (if my assumptions are correct) more efficient than shipping in each product separately.

edit/add: curiosity overcame my laziness -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan...hanol is not presently manufactured in Hawaii.

Ethanol is not presently manufactured in Hawaii.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

Just some points to think about under the E15 proposal:

1. USA will produce enough ethanol to provide for more E15 at the retail pump (replacing E10). So we will produce 50% more than we do now (roughly) and it takes lots of energy to produce ethanol from corn. Farmers will need to grow more corn if food supplies are to be adequate.

2. Ethanol cannot be transported to blending terminals via PIPELINE (it's too corrosive and has an affinity for water), so it must be trucked in over the road tank trucks (or train tank car), which typically burn lots of diesel fuel. There will be a lot more deliveries of ethanol to make the additional 5% blend. Trucks carry 90% while trains carry about 10%.

3. Ethanol delivered to petroleum terminals for blending at the rack show up in the tank trucks (or rail car) and the ethanol is pumped into special tankage for eventual blending into delivery tank trucks over the loading rack.

4. Blended product is delivered to retail stations via tank truck.

Production and moving of ethanol is very energy intensive and since the new blended fuel (E15 vs. E10) has less energy, less MPG will be realized by consumers. Somehow, this doesn't sound like a great idea, except maybe for the sales of ethanol, if that's even a profitable business.

And, of course, we need lots of fertilizer to grow the additional corn, and we all know where that comes from.

After 35 years of my career in the oil & gas industry, I am really not surprised proposals like this keep on surfacing. We have abundant oil & gas in this country and we really don't need this ethanol use increase.