My plan to retire at 35

I guess I should make clear - we aren't trying to live an upper middle class lifestyle with lots of expensive organized extracurricular activities. I'm not too worried about building the kids' resumes so they can get into an elite undergraduate school. I am more interested in establishing an environment where the kids can pursue the interests they want while also doing well academically in school without setting overly stressful expectations on their performance. In other words, I don't care if they don't ever letter in anything or become first chair or have a 4.0 (or 6.0), as long as they are happy, reasonably successful and intelligent.

Then I think you are on the right track living in the neighborhood you do. In our area even Scouts can be very expensive - probably several thousand a year if you signed your kid up for all the camps and trips. If I had to do it over I would have lived in an area where the other households had similar spending habits, not similar incomes - a total Milionaire Next Door lifestyle.
 
I guess I should make clear - we aren't trying to live an upper middle class lifestyle with lots of expensive organized extracurricular activities. I'm not too worried about building the kids' resumes so they can get into an elite undergraduate school. I am more interested in establishing an environment where the kids can pursue the interests they want while also doing well academically in school without setting overly stressful expectations on their performance. In other words, I don't care if they don't ever letter in anything or become first chair or have a 4.0 (or 6.0), as long as they are happy, reasonably successful and intelligent.

Excellent post. Sounds like my childhood. I played outside, rode bikes, went to afterschool gym activities up through High School. I started working at 16 and paid for my own college education (with help from scholarships and grants). I lived at home through college and I have no regrets about that. I graduated with zero debt and I have a very paying job and I'm looking at retiring in the next 1 - 3 years which, to me, means I've been pretty successful and pretty smart. FUEGOs kids can (and I highly suspect will) do the same. It takes is a level headed parent and guidance to move in the right direction, which FUEGO seems to provide.
 
Then I think you are on the right track living in the neighborhood you do. In our area even Scouts can be very expensive - probably several thousand a year if you signed your kid up for all the camps and trips. If I had to do it over I would have lived in an area where the other households had similar spending habits, not similar incomes - a total Milionaire Next Door lifestyle.

I think we do actually have millionaires a few doors down (I would almost bet a million bucks they are - they own six rental houses mostly free and clear in the neighborhood). And some that aren't millionaires but probably pretty well off based on education, profession, and employer. And then there is the lady next door that is a hair stylist and gets by just fine.

We're pretty happy with the neighborhood and it is easy to not spend a ton of money on stuff just to not stick out too much.
 
Keep working.

+1001

Work until you do not need to include 'free medical and dental care' in your retirement plan. They are not 'free', the rest of us her pay for them.

OP should be titled "How to Game the System so You Will pay for Things I should Pay For So I Can Call Myself 'RETIRED'"!

ER should not be at the expense of others.
 
I think we do actually have millionaires a few doors down (I would almost bet a million bucks they are - they own six rental houses mostly free and clear in the neighborhood). And some that aren't millionaires but probably pretty well off based on education, profession, and employer. And then there is the lady next door that is a hair stylist and gets by just fine.

We're pretty happy with the neighborhood and it is easy to not spend a ton of money on stuff just to not stick out too much.

I was just talking to my sister this morning, who has three kids in the tween age group. I think that they've done a good job of explaining the family's finances to their kids as they've raised them, so they have reasonable expectations of what they can do.

One interesting story is that the oldest (a girl) saved up her babysitting money all last year to go to a fairly expensive summer camp. Now the second child, a boy, wants to go, but it is much harder for him to make money than her. But they are holding firm that if he wants to go to the camp, he'll have to earn the money (although they do it as matching funds--the kids have to pay half).

I like to see this kind of parenting. And fortunately, their neighborhood seems well matched to the same spending.
 
This is 100% spot on. I have read 2 of the millionaire next door books, and I definitely see myself in the books with respect to spending patterns.

I'm not sure that we are quite the Joneses, because some in the neighborhood do have flashier cars (well, almost everyone...) and better maintained yards and houses. But we aren't out of place here. We mow our own grass, work in the yard, on the house, and under the hood. We cook at home. A play date can be playing in the backyard or an afternoon at the park or an evening at the $1 roller-skating rink. The neighbors aren't in to conspicuous consumption, even though there is a wide mix of families that earn $30k/yr to $150k+. Not hard to keep up in this neighborhood if you're one of the $150K+ families (which we aren't quite yet).

There is certainly a financial arms race among the school age kids, but not so much at our kids' school (it is one of the relatively high poverty schools in the overall great district). I have heard horror stories from other schools about all the bling these kids have and how it is expected. I'm not really interested in getting that entitlement mentality formed in my 6 and 7 year olds. They seem really happy now and are doing well academically, behaviorally, and socially so no worries.

I hear about other parents scrambling to keep up with all these activities their kids are in and it sounds insane. Almost every afternoon filled with something, then travel sports almost every weekend. That isn't what we are looking for at all.

We live in a similar neighborhood and I'm thankful (we bought here before children were even on our radar). Frankly, I'm not sure why people without sufficient means stretch themselves for the "best" school district. IMO, the kids will do better where they aren't on the bottom rung of the social ladder.
 
You have gotten a boatload of suggestions already, but I will point out what I hope is obvious: all these plan assume the historical worst case outcomes. There is an excellent chance that the outcome will in fact be better than the worst historical one. If that proves to be the case (and you will likely know in 5 or 10 years), you will have a ton of fat to play with.
 
You have gotten a boatload of suggestions already, but I will point out what I hope is obvious: all these plan assume the historical worst case outcomes. There is an excellent chance that the outcome will in fact be better than the worst historical one. If that proves to be the case (and you will likely know in 5 or 10 years), you will have a ton of fat to play with.

That is totally the plan! I'm okay with a somewhat stochastic outcome to my life. Something like a 5-10% chance we'll be living on a budget for the rest of our lives. 30% chance that our real income will slowly creep up, and we'll have a very comfortable last few decades of life. And a 55-60% chance in 5-10 years, we'll know we made the right choice and have more money than we will need and be able to up the spending relatively soon.
 
And you still have the option of consulting, part time work, or a hobby business to make up any shortfall.
 
all these plan assume the historical worst case outcomes. There is an excellent chance that the outcome will in fact be better than the worst historical one. If that proves to be the case (and you will likely know in 5 or 10 years), you will have a ton of fat to play with.

This is a good point, but for my curiosity, what kind of the worst cases are assumed? All I want is to compare to the current opinions of 'experts'. I've read recently that the most reasonable growth after inflation we can expect for the next three decades is probably 2%. That definitely depressed me.
 
It's a great great thread thread that I read with interest:greetings10:. Of course, I wouldn't be brave enough to pull the plug this young, but it's very educational for anyone's planning purposes.
I admire about attitude about parenting and how you parent your children. I wish more parents nowadays did at least half-way you do, then there would be fewer parents writing to child psychologist (whose column I read once in a while in our local newspaper) asking for advise how to deal with their out-of-control teenagers.

Great job and good luck.
 
This is a good point, but for my curiosity, what kind of the worst cases are assumed? All I want is to compare to the current opinions of 'experts'. I've read recently that the most reasonable growth after inflation we can expect for the next three decades is probably 2%. That definitely depressed me.

If you are basing your plans on what firecalc spits out, it just takes your numbers and runs them through a series of historical what ifs. So the worst case is equal to what would have happened to you with your numbers if you had retired at the exact worst time in US financial history since the late 1800s.

I would not lose any sleep over what some jackhole talking head says about teh future. They have no idea and neither do we. I think recorded US financial history is a reasonable yardstick, and I think it is prudent to have plan B and plan C thought out if things go worse than that. But beyond that, there is really little you can do. You wanna work the rest of your life? Not me.
 
It's a great great thread thread that I read with interest:greetings10:. Of course, I wouldn't be brave enough to pull the plug this young, but it's very educational for anyone's planning purposes.
I admire about attitude about parenting and how you parent your children. I wish more parents nowadays did at least half-way you do, then there would be fewer parents writing to child psychologist (whose column I read once in a while in our local newspaper) asking for advise how to deal with their out-of-control teenagers.

Great job and good luck.

Thanks for the kind words! I hope our parenting pays off by having the teenage years go a little easier than some have it. So far so good, with our oldest currently 7 going on 17... :D
 
FUEGO, when I read a post about SS and its disability benefits, I thought that topic also relates to your plans: http://www.early-retirement.org/for...fect-social-security-65613-2.html#post1295933

Have you researched it and if so what conclusions did you make for yourself and your DW?

I haven't really considered qualifying for disability in the context of ER. I figured once we are FI, the need for disability insurance (provided by SS) as a replacement of earned income goes away totally. I suppose there could be some (possibly significant) increases in medical expenses and other expenses to cope with a disability (home and/or vehicle modifications, hiring out household chores and repairs, etc).

From reading the eligibility rules, we would be eligible for disability benefits for the first five years after we ER, since you must have worked for 5 of the last 10 years when you are age 31+.

Right now while we are working, I do count on the disability and survivor benefits of SS. Last I checked we would qualify for around $36000-40000 per year for survivor benefits if either me or DW kicks the bucket by virtue of having 3 qualifying kids and assuming the other spouse is the caretaker. This would be ample to live on (based on our current spending) and the surviving spouse could quit working immediately. The next egg would continue to grow untouched until the kids start aging out of SS survivor benefits eligibility.
 
A few thoughts--

(1) Not sure what your plans are with regard to paying for your kids auto insurance when they begin to drive, but assuming you are going to fund it, you can expect your auto insurance costs to go up dramatically. While you could just make your kids pay the cost of insurance, I think that in all likelihood, it will mean they will not be driving (legally anyway) as the costs to insure teens is beyond the ability of most kids to generate that kind of coin.

(2) Your home maintenance expenses seem way low to me---a general rule of thumb is 1% of the home's value, and in my own experience, that figure never seems to be sufficient. (Maybe I just bought a money pit.) Obviously, your own experience will vary based upon how handy you are, type of home construction, etc.

(3) Medical/dental also seem very low to me. It sounds like you know the details of Obamacare better than I do, but I would be surprised if your out of pocket costs are as low as you have budgeted. Also , even if they are, given the economics of medical care (costs seemingly ever increasing), the current US Budget situation (not swell), as well as the reality that over the next 60 years, the Dems are likely to lose the Presidency at some point, I would not expect what you will currently be able to get for free to continue. I think it unrealistic to expect that current promises under Obamacare will be able to be maintained in the long run. In short, I think you need to plan for higher out of pocket medical costs. Hopefully, I am completely wrong.

(4) Given your nest egg, seems to me that you may want to consider LTC insurance, or at least recognizing that some of your assets may be needed to fund those expenses towards (hopefully) the end of your life. Obviously, shXt happens, and you could need that care tomorrow if you end up walking off a cliff on one of the hikes you take with all of your new time off. Again, an accident like that would have a pretty immediate impact on your assets (drawing them down). In the same vain, you mentioned several times about possibly needing or choosing to go back to work later--if you feel that the possibility exists, seems to me you still may need life insurance. Your current assets may not be sufficient to fund future needs, and if you are gone, you may want to leave those resources behind for your family. Finally, given that you own a home and have pretty significant assets, you may want to budget for an umbrella liability policy. (No, I am not an insurance salesman--just someone who is afraid to leave his house.)

(5) I believe you indicated you were a Fed Employee. If so, and I know you know this, leaving work now will basically leave you with no federal pension benefits. While a federal pension is not great, it certainly is a meaningful amount of money, and would provide you some additional financial security. By leaving, you do give up a pretty significant benefit.

(6) I certainly did not have your assets when I was your age, and for you to be able to even consider retiring at 35 is remarkable. I would not be able (or perhaps the right word is willing) to live on what you are proposing to do for the next 50-70 years. But I do have a great deal of admiration for someone who has the courage to do this. I am not as brave as you. Whatever happens--I wish you well.
 
BTW, Obamacare is currently being discussed in another thread and there is a possible conclusion of that thread that the subsidized insurance might be a really sh***y insurance, which most doctors won't accept.
I can't comment about something that does not exist, but I know that around here good doctors don't accept MEDICAID. With MEDICAID (currently), you'd be stuck with residents / students and/or young doctors who are just starting out.

So, it is something to consider....
 
BTW, Obamacare is currently being discussed in another thread and there is a possible conclusion of that thread that the subsidized insurance might be a really sh***y insurance, which most doctors won't accept.
I can't comment about something that does not exist, but I know that around here good doctors don't accept MEDICAID. With MEDICAID (currently), you'd be stuck with residents / students and/or young doctors who are just starting out.

So, it is something to consider....

Thanks for the heads up, I'll have to read up on the other thread since there wasn't much posted there last I read it.

I am also concerned about a 2 tier health system here in the US, and have voiced that opinion here previously. Basically the private insurance would give you access to plenty of providers, whereas the subsidized exchange provided insurance might limit you to less than desirable health providers that slowly back away from the subsidized plans (if reimbursements are stingy).

Sure it is a definite possibility and is more likely to be a short term problem than a long term problem. But there will be a larger group of vocal, politically relevant people on the exchange insurance plans as compared to medicaid recipients today. Middle class people. You can't F with middle class people too much and stay in power politically here.

I am glad that my ER timing will allow me to see what happens with obamacare, exchanges, insurance plan choices, costs, what they cover, doctor availability, etc.

I just check my GP Dr and his practice won't even take medicare patients, but so far he hasn't dumped his existing medicare patients.
 
(1) Not sure what your plans are with regard to paying for your kids auto insurance when they begin to drive, but assuming you are going to fund it, you can expect your auto insurance costs to go up dramatically. While you could just make your kids pay the cost of insurance, I think that in all likelihood, it will mean they will not be driving (legally anyway) as the costs to insure teens is beyond the ability of most kids to generate that kind of coin.

I have heard up to $2000/yr increased insurance for 1 kid. I expect that expense to fall on us (mostly) for a period of 1-6 years, but I think the expense starts dropping in year 3 or 4 in our jurisdiction. Given our access to transit, this is an expense that could theoretically be cut if we had to (but maybe not the 1st expense). Unfortunately we have 2 kids 1 year apart so it will be double the expense for a few years.

(2) Your home maintenance expenses seem way low to me---a general rule of thumb is 1% of the home's value, and in my own experience, that figure never seems to be sufficient. (Maybe I just bought a money pit.) Obviously, your own experience will vary based upon how handy you are, type of home construction, etc.
My number works out to right around 1% of house value to cover big ticket items, plus the small stuff I spend routinely each year. For total turnkey operations with someone else doing everything, I'd say 2-3% is more appropriate. So far I'm handy enough or savvy enough to contract well for services and not have too much out of pocket. And we'll probably hit a few largish deferred maintenance items before FIRE (or specifically set aside $5k-10k or whatever for these).

(3) Medical/dental also seem very low to me. It sounds like you know the details of Obamacare better than I do, but I would be surprised if your out of pocket costs are as low as you have budgeted. Also , even if they are, given the economics of medical care (costs seemingly ever increasing), the current US Budget situation (not swell), as well as the reality that over the next 60 years, the Dems are likely to lose the Presidency at some point, I would not expect what you will currently be able to get for free to continue. I think it unrealistic to expect that current promises under Obamacare will be able to be maintained in the long run. In short, I think you need to plan for higher out of pocket medical costs. Hopefully, I am completely wrong.
I may tighten up this area of budget some more. Maybe what I have is inadequate. I still don't have a good feel for what we'll owe under an obamacare exchange subsidized insurance plan. My understanding was max out of pocket is somehow limited based on AGI (and ours will be low).

My crystal ball says obamacare gets repealed either very soon after 2014 (within a few years) or not at all. Tinkering may happen but killing it seems unlikely once it is engrained in our society and thought of as an entitlement. Maybe it'll take more than 3 years, who knows. I can always go back to work if access to health insurance is a concern.

But, yes, this is a risk.

(4) Given your nest egg, seems to me that you may want to consider LTC insurance, or at least recognizing that some of your assets may be needed to fund those expenses towards (hopefully) the end of your life. Obviously, shXt happens, and you could need that care tomorrow if you end up walking off a cliff on one of the hikes you take with all of your new time off. Again, an accident like that would have a pretty immediate impact on your assets (drawing them down). In the same vain, you mentioned several times about possibly needing or choosing to go back to work later--if you feel that the possibility exists, seems to me you still may need life insurance. Your current assets may not be sufficient to fund future needs, and if you are gone, you may want to leave those resources behind for your family. Finally, given that you own a home and have pretty significant assets, you may want to budget for an umbrella liability policy. (No, I am not an insurance salesman--just someone who is afraid to leave his house.)
Financial shortfalls that necessitate going back to work are likely to be triggered by long term poor stock market returns. I may coincidentally meet my demise prematurely or (worse?) end up incapacitated to the extent I need LTC early on. However injury or premature death are largely uncorrelated with stock market returns. Hence, the cumulative probability of early death or needing LTC early in life AND having portfolio failures are getting down in the fraction of a percent range.

I (and DW) will accept a 100% probability that we won't have to work right now in exchange for a <1% probability the survivor may have to work at some future point in life due to spousal early death or incapacity AND portfolio failure.

And there is always SS survivor's benefits that protect us for 5 years after quitting work (longer if we have self employment income subject to payroll taxes that earns us creditable SS quarters).

For the typical needs of LTC in one's 60's or 70's, I don't have LTC included in my ER budget. If my portfolio doesn't grow over time I'll be screwed I guess. Of course if money is that tight I would probably choose to go back to work at some point early on.

(5) I believe you indicated you were a Fed Employee. If so, and I know you know this, leaving work now will basically leave you with no federal pension benefits. While a federal pension is not great, it certainly is a meaningful amount of money, and would provide you some additional financial security. By leaving, you do give up a pretty significant benefit.
Not a Fed. I have 2 years service at the current gig, will have 5 years at age 35 when I plan to be FI. That gets me a pension large enough to buy a really nice cheeseburger a couple times a month. Unfortunately it would start 30 years after I retire, at age 65. In other words inconsequential, and I plan to roll my cash balance out of the pension and into my 401k. ~20-25k is all it will be in 3 more years.

(6) I certainly did not have your assets when I was your age, and for you to be able to even consider retiring at 35 is remarkable. I would not be able (or perhaps the right word is willing) to live on what you are proposing to do for the next 50-70 years. But I do have a great deal of admiration for someone who has the courage to do this. I am not as brave as you. Whatever happens--I wish you well.
Thanks! It is a little daunting to think about locking in a budget for many decades. On the flip side, maybe I'll get bored and find something that interests me and has enough of a pecuniary advantage that I'd rather trade my free time for money. Or maybe I'll do the "just one more year thing" for a year or 3.
 
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FUEGO, congrats on your achievements so far! DW and I are also in our mid/upper 30's and have a young family. We have the means to be FI if we made some adjustments (namely private schooling, letting go of a live-in nanny/housekeeper, and a slight downsize in home a few streets away) but currently struggle wether these discretionaries are a worthwhile trade-off of working a few more years.

I'll be your devils advocate and I'll only list some of my rationale for working just a few more years (not the other side, since you've got that well covered) and building a slightly better cushion. Whether these are important for you obviously only you can decide.

1) Every year that you work in your mid-30's is equivalent to 4 years of work in your mid-50's (time value of money, assuming money grows at 7%)

2) Extra efforts/time/risks/retraining for a new position if you need to side hustle for part time work. Time/energy you would not need to expend "punching in the clock" at your current position for a few more years.

3) Extra financial cushioning may help educational/business oppurtunities for your kids at a later stage of life. Regardless of how good your kids are brought up, money does buy oppurtunity - that is the reality.

4) Sleeping better during the next stock market bear market and having additional funds to take advantage of the next crash.

5)Less wiggle room than someone who is not LBYM (ie. not as many areas to reduce expense since you are already frugal)

6 Family time is important now but the kids will be in school 8 hours of the day anyways. If I can spend a few hours/day on the weekdays, and the whole weekend with them..... they should be fine.

7) Last but not least, heck you will only be 35 and chances are you will have 2/3 more of your life ahead of you!


Apex
 
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BTW, Obamacare is currently being discussed in another thread and there is a possible conclusion of that thread that the subsidized insurance might be a really sh***y insurance, which most doctors won't accept.
I can't comment about something that does not exist, but I know that around here good doctors don't accept MEDICAID. With MEDICAID (currently), you'd be stuck with residents / students and/or young doctors who are just starting out.

So, it is something to consider....

Can you link to that other thread? I can't find it using the search feature. Thanks!
 
Here is the link:

http://www.early-retirement.org/for...insurance-changes-for-pre-medicare-65618.html

Pay attention to posts from "Nikki J", who is a physician in MA, the only State that has already implemented subsidized plans.

Thanks for the link, I missed the bulk of the discussion on that thread when I read it right after the thread was posted.

I think there are already some specialist deserts in my locality where they won't take any insurance options available to me from my employer or DW's employer. At least not the ones recommended by doctor friends. So maybe it will be status quo for us in terms of access to specialists? At some point you have to pay more for access to better service.

Hopefully in a few years we can see the implications of the exchange insurance policies and how they segregate providers into 2 (or more) tiers of quality. I have certainly heard (anecdotally) of some practices dropping out of taking any insurance because they didn't want to deal with low reimbursement, denial for some services, and administrative expenses. And/or concierge medicine arrangements.
 
FUEGO. before you roll a pension cash balance into your 401k, look carefully at the plan. My cash balance will be modest in a year (no more than 40k), but I don't plan on rolling the money into my 401k. My employer offers the option to use 401k money to buy additional pension credit once you are drawing on the pension (I could do so as early as age 50). Depending on how this is priced, it could be a very, very attractive option, especially as there would be zero risk of pension default.
 
Congratulations on accumulating 1.4 at 35 . What would happen if you retired into a bear market like the 2008 retirees ? We watched as our savings dropped by 30-40 % .$900,000 for 60 years without health insurance is a longshot especially with three children .
 
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