Need Help for a long time friend with spending issues.

[daylatedollarshort]

It's the same issue with society at large. The homelessness and some of the unemployment problems are caused by drug addiction, which is also a mental problem. Nobody seems to have a solution for that either.

Scientists do! Really, it starts in the gut - https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/nutritional-psychiatry-your-brain-on-food-201511168626

 

[ivinsfan]

If I were you, I'd back off faster than greased lightning. Assuming this guy is not both mentally retarded and dismissive of your advice, I suspect he knows EXACTLY what he is doing. He is an adult and you cannot force him to behave sensibly if he chooses otherwise. He is about to go completely belly up financially speaking, and he probably expects you to spend every last dollar you have in order to save him. That's why you need to get out of the picture before he sucks you down as he spirals down the drain.

I don't think you are tough at all. You have done all you can.

I'm not quite as cynical about it, but yes it's kind of like going down with the ship. If it's him or my DH and I, don't worry we will jump ship first.



I've got that oldest female child syndrome if I can help someone I will, but he could be beyond help at this point.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I’m going to go practical here. Your friend is >65 so is likely eligible for support of various kinds. There may be programs that help him more than you can. Homestead programs. Reduced property tax based on age and income. Counseling. Elder care stuff that keeps him away from spending more. Have you looked into that?

 

[ivinsfan]

I’m going to go practical here. Your friend is >65 so is likely eligible for support of various kinds. There may be programs that help him more than you can. Homestead programs. Reduced property tax based on age and income. Counseling. Elder care stuff that keeps him away from spending more. Have you looked into that?

Yes, but he won't do tax returns which are pretty much mandatory as a first step.



At this point he is 5 years away from getting a tax deferral due to low income on his house. so he would need over 50K in cash just to pay property taxes. He has not one red cent that isn't tied up in his house. Net income after truck payment maybe 250 dollars a month.



As this point doing the legwork to get on these programs seems pi##ing in the wind. When/if he sells the house he will have too much money to qualify for any of these programs.

 

[RetiredHappy]

If the underlying issue is mental health as I suspect, it is going to be very hard to help. He needs professional help, but how can it be arranged? Who can force him to seek help? Who is going to pay for it?

It's the same issue with society at large. The homelessness and some of the unemployment problems are caused by drug addiction, which is also a mental problem. Nobody seems to have a solution for that either.

Hence I suggested to contact Adult Protective Services, which I didn't see OP respond to my suggestion. In my previous line of work, we dealt alot with Adult Protective Services. The quality of the social workers vary. Some would just close the case and some would work with alot of compassion through the process to ensure that the person's mental and physical needs are taken care of.

 

[Amethyst]

Excessive use of these drugs may be part of the problem. Over time, they can erode our mental marbles, which we need for executive functions such as critical thinking, planning, etc.

I don't have enough juice to get this guy help. He shops about 3 doctors to make sure he gets enough Ambien and anti-anxiety drugs. .

 

[aja8888]

If the IRS has a lien on his house, or he has been fined, but not opened the mail to find out, he should get that in the open real soon. He could very well be facing jail time.

Usually, after a few letters indicating fines, the IRS sends a demand letter. If you don't respond, an agent(s) usually pay an in-person visit.

These are ruthless people.

 

[ivinsfan]

Hence I suggested to contact Adult Protective Services, which I didn't see OP respond to my suggestion. In my previous line of work, we dealt alot with Adult Protective Services. The quality of the social workers vary. Some would just close the case and some would work with alot of compassion through the process to ensure that the person's mental and physical needs are taken care of.

I'm still thinking about your first post..I did see it...I'm struggling with that idea at the moment but after this weekend I might feel differently.

 

[ivinsfan]

Excessive use of these drugs may be part of the problem. Over time, they can erode our mental marbles, which we need for executive functions such as critical thinking, planning, etc.

No doubt and his blood sugar is very unstable too, which doesn't help at all. I'm very torn about the whole thing. As you can probably tell

 

[ivinsfan]

If the IRS has a lien on his house, or he has been fined, but not opened the mail to find out, he should get that in the open real soon. He could very well be facing jail time.

Usually, after a few letters indicating fines, the IRS sends a demand letter. If you don't respond, an agent(s) usually pay an in-person visit.

These are ruthless people.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt, believe me when I tell you I don't want to open several dozen letters someone has gotten from the IRS...

 

[Act2]

Suggestion: Check online to see if you have an Area Agency on Aging. If so, start there.

 

[steady saver]

In fairness I'll say up front that i have not read all 86 posts written so far. But the ones I did read gave good advice...What struck me the most is that 86 posts have been written about this situation and the man you are trying to remedy a solution for isn't agreeing to anything you suggest. In my line of work (I was a therapist), one of the most helpful pieces of advice I got in graduate school was "don't work harder than your client." Why? Because it's not healthy or productive for them. Because you will burn out. Because you can't save the world. You've got 86 posts trying to help this man b/c people are basically good and people want to help. It is human nature to want to right a wrong and to help those that can't seem to help themselves. As someone pointed out, there is a time for strong boundaries, or "tough love." I think that time has come.

My suggestion is this: Take the suggestions that works the best for YOU - one in which you can set your boundaries and stick with. This dear friend of yours has mental health issues as well as potentially dangerous physical health issues if not kept in check. Loving your friend is not the same thing as rescuing him. You can love him and set a boundary. Be clear with him what you are willing to do and what you will not do and stick with it. You are not failing him by doing so. Bringing in Adult Services could be a good thing. This is bigger than one person (even a friend) can handle at this point. You can't make up for the losses and disappointments in his life, however severe they were.
I wish you and your friend a good resolution to this challenging situation. Please let us know how things unfold. Take care of yourself.

 

[Bamaman]

Your friend is a male version of my first wife, and I got rid of her in 1974. She still lives high on the hog with her 3rd husband, a used truck salesman. These people never change.

This is a classic case of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. To him, he's just having temporary financial problems, and he'll not admit there is a serious problem.

He will eventually have the truck repossessed, and the finance company will sue him for the deficiency after the truck's sold. His credit card companies will also get judgments on him and he'll be forced into bankruptcy.

When he's broke, he'll still get insulin as a charity case. And Section VIII apartment will be available if he lives in the right city.

It's too bad that he doesn't have a family that could save him from himself. They could petition the court that he be deemed not of sound mind, and caring relatives take over his financial dealings.

The home needs to be sold, and the proceeds go to paying credit cards and get the IRS off his case. They will eventually come after him, you know. Then the balance of what's left should go into a trust he cannot touch and he be put on a subsistence monthly income.

 

[Jerry1]

I agree with the comments to get professional help, like Adult Protective Services. This is not like an alcoholic where you need someone to accept their situation in order to move forward. Someone with a mental illness, think bipolar, will never come to that conclusion on their own. You need professional help just to help this person.

Given the mental illness, there’s not even any point in trying to help the person work out a plan. You’ve said it in this thread, you’re there for them in anyway that actually addresses their problem. You know that giving money will not actually address their problem. However, I could certainly agree with your charitable contribution approach. Maybe you can trade some emergency money (the phone, unlock the card . . .) for an immediate visit with a professional.

Also as you’ve pointed out, the mechanics to deal with the financial issues are pretty straight forward. The hurdle is the mental illness. Laser focus on that.

Best wishes to you and your DH as you work through this.

 

[NW-Bound]

... He shops about 3 doctors to make sure he gets enough Ambien and anti-anxiety drugs. You think any of them pay him more then a moments attention? Anyway I know enough to worry and am pretty much powerless. Not a good position to be in.

Excessive use of these drugs may be part of the problem. Over time, they can erode our mental marbles, which we need for executive functions such as critical thinking, planning, etc.

Since you've been telling him for three years what he needs to hear and he isn't doing anything to fix it and is now approaching you for money, his addiction is in charge and is as dangerous to friends and loved ones as any other addiction. Addicts manipulate, wheedle, cry, cajole, beg, lie and worse - anything to put off the reckoning one more day.

I would not recommend your Iowa friend take him in until he hits bottom and gets professional help. The addiction would just turn your Iowa friend into another patsy to suck into its vortex of destruction. Any money you put in is just feeding the addiction so is worse than useless.

It's worth laying out the truth to him in tough language and telling him that you absolutely are there for moral support and to help him seek help, but not one dime of money. You've already lost your friend to the addiction, that's the only hope (though slim) to get him back.

Ah, speaking of Ambien, let me tell you a real story. It involves the husband of my wife's sister.

This man is in his early 80s, and had been taking Ambien for years, saying it helped his sleep. He developed an addiction, and went to many doctors to get it. He stashed the pills around the house, to be sure that he would always have some. He eventually lost all appetite, and did not care about anything else but his drug. First, he lost weight, then his mind.

Somehow, this eluded his wife's attention, until she noted his strange behavior. From a man who had OCD and germaphobia all his life, he changed into an unkempt addict, and acted like a lunatic. He refused food and drink, and nearly turned into a skeleton.

When his doctor sent him to a hospital, they had to put him in an ICU for a week. I don't know the full detail of how they helped him through the withdrawal, but after a month when he finally came out of it, he remembered nothing about this episode, or how he ended up in the hospital.

Some drugs have horrible side effects. Never take any drug lightly, particularly psychotic drugs.

 

[Letj]

If the IRS has a lien on his house, or he has been fined, but not opened the mail to find out, he should get that in the open real soon. He could very well be facing jail time.

Usually, after a few letters indicating fines, the IRS sends a demand letter. If you don't respond, an agent(s) usually pay an in-person visit.

These are ruthless people.

What is he in danger of? At this point, since he hasn’t filed, how would the IRS determine if he owes any money? As far as I can see the only thing he is guilty of is failure to file. I knew someone who didn’t file for years and got letters from IRS requesting they filed. They got money back.

 

[NW-Bound]

Well this is where having a partner, or some kids, or grandkids, or siblings, or a parent is worth it's weight in gold. No one with a mental health issues wants to be told they have a mental health issue and could use some help. They need to come to that conclusion on their own or with help from family...

Not the place to tell this story, but I also know of an elderly man who has money, owns his house, is not crazy, but needs help that can only come from a close relative who cares about him. He has friends, but they can only do so much.

 

[Teacher Terry]

I was a former social worker and in the states I worked adult protective services couldn’t have done a thing. Being incompetent is a high bar to prove and adults have a right to make their own decisions as they should. I had a friend in a similar situation but when he was on the verge of being homeless he finally took action. He had asked if he could sleep on our couch and I said no.

 

[Music Lover]

Some people won't help themselves and some people won't learn from their mistakes. This friend has deliberately ignored his financial situation for years and refuses to correct it. There's nothing that can be done.

One of my friends who is reasonably intelligent (except in money matters) decided at age 45 to build a house. He built too much house for too much money and 10 years later finally realized that his monthly expenses exceeded his income and he would not only never pay off his house, he would not be able to retire on a reduced income.

He sold his house, paid off his debt and moved to an apartment. Was he happy to be out of debt? No. Six months later he retired early taking a big penalty on his pension, and then bought a new $85,000 vehicle. His rent and car payments eat up about 90% of his reduced pension and he's slowly spending the small amount of savings he has left just to cover his day to day expenses.

We golf together 3 or 4 times a year. The last time we played I found out that he traded in his 3-year old $85,000 car for the next model up (about $105,000). He only had put 12,000 kms (7,500 miles) on the previous car in 3 years but decided he needed a new one. We never talked specifics so I have no idea how much the first vehicle had depreciated but I'm sure it was at least $25,000.

 

[Gremlin]

Since you've been telling him for three years what he needs to hear and he isn't doing anything to fix it and is now approaching you for money, his addiction is in charge and is as dangerous to friends and loved ones as any other addiction. Addicts manipulate, wheedle, cry, cajole, beg, lie and worse - anything to put off the reckoning one more day.

I would not recommend your Iowa friend take him in until he hits bottom and gets professional help. The addiction would just turn your Iowa friend into another patsy to suck into its vortex of destruction. Any money you put in is just feeding the addiction so is worse than useless.

It's worth laying out the truth to him in tough language and telling him that you absolutely are there for moral support and to help him seek help, but not one dime of money. You've already lost your friend to the addiction, that's the only hope (though slim) to get him back.

+1000. I was just about to write something very similar. OP - you mentioned he has no family but I can tell you from painful, personal experience, family members are no more likely to be able to help those with MH/addiction issues than a close friend like you. God bless you for caring enough to try.

 

[Gremlin]

I was a former social worker and in the states I worked adult protective services couldn’t have done a thing. Being incompetent is a high bar to prove and adults have a right to make their own decisions as they should. I had a friend in a similar situation but when he was on the verge of being homeless he finally took action. He had asked if he could sleep on our couch and I said no.

As I was reading the responses, I was thinking about your always valuable input in cases such as these. Nothing I’ve read about the man in question seems enough to be declared incompetent. If it were, the courts would be overrun with cases exactly like this. Unfortunately, the old adage about “leading a horse to water” applies to those with MH and addiction issues as well.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Suggestion: Check online to see if you have an Area Agency on Aging. If so, start there.

+1. If you want to do 1 thing, start here with the aging office. If you are willing to do 2 things, bring him healthy food to eat that is easy to prepare. If he isn't getting the right nutrition, he may never be able to think clearly or logically. Even talking to a therapist isn't going to fix any gut and blood sugar issues he might have, and current science says many mental health issues really begin in the gut. Or at least buy him some probiotics or yogurt - Gut Bacteria's Role in Anxiety and Depression: It’s Not Just In Your Head, https://www.discovermagazine.com/mi...iety-and-depression-its-not-just-in-your-head.

 

[Souschef]

With some people there us no hope. I have mentioned my cousin, who was out on earth to be a bad example. She blew through 2 inheritances and the sale of her mother's home.
My dear BIL, who used to work for the IRS, sat down with them to work out a budget. There was no hope.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

So many excellent ideas and suggestions--as one would expect with this august group.

I will only add this: He needs to sell the $40K hi-fi system as well. As an audiophile of sorts I know that the markup on equipment for this hobby is enormous. You play at your financial peril in this game if you cannot control your constant impulses for "better". He very likely has ended up paying a few thousand alone for speaker cables and interconnects that drip with snake oil and produce no better results than plain living room lamp wire.

Also, if his ears are like mine (I'm 66) he likely has lost a fair amount of his ability to truly discern some of the quality that obtains with good (=pricey) systems. A $1,500-$2,000 low end rig will probably be just fine.

He won't get much, maybe 25% of what he paid a dealer; but that might be enough for a security deposit on an inexpensive one-bedroom apartment rental or a most of the price of a reliable used car.

Best of luck with all of this. You are a generous and good-hearted person to want to help him. It's good that you remember the old adage: "Don't break yourself trying to fix others."

-BB

 

[ImaCheesehead]

Does the mutual friend in Iowa have any idea of what they could be getting into?

The friend with financial issues may also be mentally ill, there are apparently addiction issues with Ambien and anti-anxiety drugs, and he is also an uncontrolled diabetic not taking his insulin because he cannot afford it. Uncontrolled diabetes can lead to a myriad of additional health issues.

If you are getting stressed out from the phone calls you are getting from financial issue friend, just think how stressed out Iowa friend will be when they take in a physically and mentally ill person who will have no money in the near future..... because the house sale money WILL be gone in short order. Iowa friend will have to become the lifelong caregiver and financial support for this troubled individual.