Need Your Air Conditioner Serviced? Good Luck...

[ncbill]

Electronics repair isn't that difficult with AC units. They use a lot of discrete components. A blown relay is easy to spot and replace. Most A/C repair people just swap out the board. The AC person that my wife called said it would be about $1500 to replace the controller board including parts and labor. It cost me about $2 for the components and about 30 minutes to replace the failed component. The replacement controller board cost $220 and about 1 hour to connect to the system. So it pays to be handy at home.

My gas furnace maker offers a universal controller board for all their furnaces made from 2005 on for under $200 delivered from multiple online vendors.

Apart from the heat exchanger cracking or clogging pretty much everything else on a gas furnace can be fixed DIY.

And the blower fan not working is another reason your A/C lines can frost/freeze...reember it has its own capacitor you can remove & test...easier to replace that than remove/replace the blower fan.

As for R-22, RS-44b is supposed to be the latest & greatest drop-in replacement.

https://www.replacementforr22.com/rs-44b-faq/

OP should call the head of their HVAC company & ask why the tech didn't offer to evacuate the old R-22, replace the filter/dryer, then refill with RS-44b @ under $30/lb.

Versus R-22 @ $400/lb.

 

[Raygun99]

If you replace it with a HIGH SEER energy effecient unit the electric bill will certainly help off set the cost to keep running the old one.

 

[I am He]

It is frustrating. I just did the whole system HVAC for 8k after the AC went out last year. Old system was from 1963 or early 70s (which I doubt as it wasn't likely replaced in under a decade back when USA made stuff to last [possbily the AC was added in the early 70s]).

Furnace still worked but I went from the old 80% to high efficiency.

So now my new system is basically outdated and on borrowed time.sigh.

At least I don't expect it to last like the old one so I won't be terribly surprised when life happens.

 

[retire to nature]

Does anyone know if I can add a condensor to an existing unit?

I have an extra condensor (from my sister's death). So I dont know why she had, but she was a flipper. Since her death was all of sudden, I had to do alot of puzzles by myself.
She had a new window ac unit, and I sold, and later realized why she had. I guess it was the airbnb attic room. So last year, I found the insulation was bad, I added thick insulation on the attic.
I have two units of HAVC for my airbnb house, about 5-6k sqft size. And second floor unit was working 24 hrs nonstop for the recent heatwave but it couldnt hit the setting temp.
I worry it will happen all the time with the global warming, and puzzling if my sister bought the condensor to install for the second floor.
Is it possible 2 condesor to attach to the coil? or add another coil? it was the same brand and should be the same r410.

 

[Time2]

These prices I'm hearing scare me!

I had my air conditioner / furnace replaced about 10 or 11 years ago. I paid less than $500. Of course I did get the brother in law discount and help on installation. Since then I had one ECM blower motor fail, got a new one under warranty. Later I had the condenser fan capacitor go bad. I did a temporary fix, by removing a capacitor from a squirrel cage fan I had in my shed. I ordered the proper one from Ebay, but before it arrived the brother in law come over and had one on the truck, so we stuck his in. A few years later the bearing in the replacement motor started rumbling. I was ready to buy bearings and my brother in law said, to much trouble with ECM motors, so he added a relay and replaced it with an old style motor. So far so good.
It's running a lot between noon and 3pm lately with our high 90* degree days. But, I do like the lower humidity when it runs a lot.

 

[robmac]

It's going to cost you a lot more, A LOT MORE, to recharge your A/C this year.

I turned on our A/C on Sunday. I noticed it was taking a long time to cool down the house, about 6 hours, much longer than usual. This was in late evening without direct sunlight on the house.

My A/C is 19 years old. It has a pinhole leak that allows refrigerant to s-l-o-w-l-y leak out of it. Two summers ago, 2020, is when I discovered the slow leak as I had the A/C serviced and the tech needed to add 2 lbs. of R22 refrigerant. The cost was $60 per lb. With labor the total bill was $328. This was the first time I've needed to add refrigerant.

An A/C tech came out today and confirmed the leak and said I needed 4 lbs. of refrigerant, which would cost about $800, plus labor. You see, R22 has been banned from being manufactured or imported, and while you can still use R22 in existing equipment, you have to get it from existing supplies. R22 currently costs about $400 a lb. The replacement refrigerant is R410A (trademarked name Puron) and it costs about $200 lb.

But wait! R410A is also being phased out as a refrigerant. A clause was sneaked into a spending bill in Dec 2020, which will make R410A obsolete. The idea is to reduce R410A by yearly increments until it is completely phased out by 2035. This is increasing the cost of R410A every year (month?) It's up about 15% since January, for example.

The "new" refrigerant of choice will be R32. All A/C units built in 2023 and going forward must use R32. If you get a new A/C unit this year it will probably still be R410A. Hard to tell, though as a quick glance at Carrier, Lennox, and Trane's websites was inconclusive. It seems they only have R410A for 2022.

I can't see spending $1,000 every two year pumping replacement refrigerant into a leaky A/C. So I'm in a awkward spot of probably needing to buy a new A/C unit and might have to buy one that uses the old R410A refrigerant. Which will be obsolete in 15 years or less.

Does anybody know for sure if the major manufacturers are using R32 in home A/C units this year?

Had the same issue here in the Dallas area. Tech wanted $190/lb to add 3 lbs due to a slow indoor coil leak. The previous Trane unit lasted 19 years, so I went with a replacement with the same brand and contractor. Think a 5 ton unit with a new furnace cost me $8800 19 years ago. This year we paid $11,200 for new units plus a rework of attic venting and return air to balance the room temps. Went from a 19 SEER dual compressor to an 18 SEER variable speed single compressor unit. So far, my electricity usage seems about the same and the unit is keeping us a cool 77 degrees in this 100 degree Texas weather. Wife is happy and life is good…

 

[RobbieB]

The problem is the leaks in the evaporator, or coil. The coils are hard to get to. It is labor intensive to take them out of the unit. Then the leak has to be found. If it is on one of the elbows, it might be accessible and easily fixed. If it is in the fins area, then it is more difficult.

The act of getting the coil in and out is labor enough, so technicians throw up their hands and usually say "new coil" since that is much of the labor. Also, if you've seen a coil in service for 15 or 20 years, you'll see there is potential for more corrosion and future leaks

Yup, that's where mine was, in the evap coil. They opened the sheet metal and removed the coil and replaced w/o disturbing the plenum which was custom made to fit.

Cost me $1700 for 2 guys working 3/4 day.

 

[Al in Ohio]

It's going to cost you a lot more, A LOT MORE, to recharge your A/C this year.

I turned on our A/C on Sunday. I noticed it was taking a long time to cool down the house, about 6 hours, much longer than usual. This was in late evening without direct sunlight on the house.

My A/C is 19 years old. It has a pinhole leak that allows refrigerant to s-l-o-w-l-y leak out of it. Two summers ago, 2020, is when I discovered the slow leak as I had the A/C serviced and the tech needed to add 2 lbs. of R22 refrigerant. The cost was $60 per lb. With labor the total bill was $328. This was the first time I've needed to add refrigerant.

An A/C tech came out today and confirmed the leak and said I needed 4 lbs. of refrigerant, which would cost about $800, plus labor. You see, R22 has been banned from being manufactured or imported, and while you can still use R22 in existing equipment, you have to get it from existing supplies. R22 currently costs about $400 a lb. The replacement refrigerant is R410A (trademarked name Puron) and it costs about $200 lb.

But wait! R410A is also being phased out as a refrigerant. A clause was sneaked into a spending bill in Dec 2020, which will make R410A obsolete. The idea is to reduce R410A by yearly increments until it is completely phased out by 2035. This is increasing the cost of R410A every year (month?) It's up about 15% since January, for example.

The "new" refrigerant of choice will be R32. All A/C units built in 2023 and going forward must use R32. If you get a new A/C unit this year it will probably still be R410A. Hard to tell, though as a quick glance at Carrier, Lennox, and Trane's websites was inconclusive. It seems they only have R410A for 2022.

I can't see spending $1,000 every two year pumping replacement refrigerant into a leaky A/C. So I'm in a awkward spot of probably needing to buy a new A/C unit and might have to buy one that uses the old R410A refrigerant. Which will be obsolete in 15 years or less.

Does anybody know for sure if the major manufacturers are using R32 in home A/C units this year?

This has been planned for for well over a decade, maybe 20 years. When I replaced my AC almost 12 years ago I made sure not to install an R-22 system, most reputable dealers wouldn’t even sell them anymore.

 

[NW-Bound]

My gas furnace maker offers a universal controller board for all their furnaces made from 2005 on for under $200 delivered from multiple online vendors.

Apart from the heat exchanger cracking or clogging pretty much everything else on a gas furnace can be fixed DIY.

And the blower fan not working is another reason your A/C lines can frost/freeze...reember it has its own capacitor you can remove & test...easier to replace that than remove/replace the blower fan.

As for R-22, RS-44b is supposed to be the latest & greatest drop-in replacement.

https://www.replacementforr22.com/rs-44b-faq/

OP should call the head of their HVAC company & ask why the tech didn't offer to evacuate the old R-22, replace the filter/dryer, then refill with RS-44b @ under $30/lb.

Versus R-22 @ $400/lb.

It sounds like this RS-44b is a life save. Still fairly expensive at $30/lb, but it does not require emptying the compressor of the old oil and to add new ester oil.

And it sounds like although topping an old R-22 system with RS-44b and mixing the two is not condone, doing it will not cause damage or reduce the efficiency. Of course, to repair a leak or to replace the condenser, the old refrigerant must be pulled out any way.

 

[Qs Laptop]

My A/C is 19 years old. It has a pinhole leak that allows refrigerant to s-l-o-w-l-y leak out of it. Two summers ago, 2020, is when I discovered the slow leak as I had the A/C serviced and the tech needed to add 2 lbs. of R22 refrigerant. The cost was $60 per lb. With labor the total bill was $328. This was the first time I've needed to add refrigerant.

An A/C tech came out today and confirmed the leak and said I needed 4 lbs. of refrigerant, which would cost about $800, plus labor. You see, R22 has been banned from being manufactured or imported, and while you can still use R22 in existing equipment, you have to get it from existing supplies. R22 currently costs about $400 a lb. The replacement refrigerant is R410A (trademarked name Puron) and it costs about $200 lb.

OP should call the head of their HVAC company & ask why the tech didn't offer to evacuate the old R-22, replace the filter/dryer, then refill with RS-44b @ under $30/lb.

Versus R-22 @ $400/lb.

And it sounds like although topping an old R-22 system with RS-44b and mixing the two is not condone, doing it will not cause damage or reduce the efficiency.

These comments got me to think about my refrigerant being topped off a couple of years ago. I dug up the invoice from the repair and the refrigerant used was R410A, not R22. So the cost of R410A has increased almost 4X.

I will keep that idea of evac and replacing with RS-44b in the back of my mind. For now, the AC is working as it should. We've even hit 100 degrees here in Minneapolis area, and have had several days in the upper 90's. AC blowing cold air.

 

[ncbill]

These comments got me to think about my refrigerant being topped off a couple of years ago. I dug up the invoice from the repair and the refrigerant used was R410A, not R22. So the cost of R410A has increased almost 4X.

I will keep that idea of evac and replacing with RS-44b in the back of my mind. For now, the AC is working as it should. We've even hit 100 degrees here in Minneapolis area, and have had several days in the upper 90's. AC blowing cold air.

If your current system uses R410A you'll need to use that or a different "drop-in" replacement designed for R410A systems.

Not RS-44b which is designed as a replacement for R-22 systems.

R410A is still under $25/lb. online:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363433213539

If the tech quoted you $200/lb. for R410A I'd be having a long talk with the head of the company.

 

[Surewhitey]

Thanks for the reminder to clean out the outside unit for me & DD...

 

[Qs Laptop]

R410A is still under $25/lb. online:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363433213539

If the tech quoted you $200/lb. for R410A I'd be having a long talk with the
head of the company.

As I said, 2 lbs. R410A in August 2020 was $60/lb. (price installed.) Now the price is $911 for 4 lbs. installed, or $227.75/lb.

Thanks for the link to pricing for R410A. My AC system continues to be working fine so I've decided the tech was playing me. You really think I should contact the owner and bring this up? How do I know the owner is not aware of this and instead, is instructing the techs to try to sell new installs?

I'll be going elsewhere for service and/or install, that's for sure.

 

[latexman]

The problem is the leaks in the evaporator, or coil.

Coils are in a hostile environment. In the summer, they are bathed in sweat.

Notice the dissimilar metals, usually copper and aluminum. So with water and dissimilar metals, you have a galvanic cell and galvanic corrosion. The presence of water also adds microbial activity and corrosion to the soup too.

I would recommend spending a little bit more $ and get an evaporator without dissimilar metals, usually 100% aluminum. My A/C guy with 40+ years of experience, he's my next door neighbor the last 12 years, recommends this.

 

[HF63]

One other item that is nice to have a Case Coil, is like a box on top of the furnace.


This thing has easy access to coil for cleaning, inspection and replacing the coil w/ out touching or removing the furnace.

 

[NW-Bound]

Notice the dissimilar metals, usually copper and aluminum. So with water and dissimilar metals, you have a galvanic cell and galvanic corrosion. The presence of water also adds microbial activity and corrosion to the soup too.

I would recommend spending a little bit more $ and get an evaporator without dissimilar metals, usually 100% aluminum. My A/C guy with 40+ years of experience, he's my next door neighbor the last 12 years, recommends this.

I have not seen an all-aluminum evaporator. Copper is more expensive and heavier than aluminum. So, why the industry still uses copper?

What's the drawback of an all-aluminum evaporator? Not as good thermal conductance? Aluminum tube not as easy to braze as copper tube?

And by the way between copper and aluminum, the galvanic corrosion attacks aluminum, not copper. So why the problem with leakage?

Then, I saw that the copper serpentine line has a lot of brazed joints. Could it be that these brazed joints get corroded?

If so, can they make a continuous loop of copper or aluminum through the evaporator?

 

[JoeWras]

Here's an interesting article that discusses the pros and cons of each:
https://highperformancehvac.com/copper-versus-aluminum-coils-hvac/

BTW, I think most automobile A/C coils are all aluminum due to harsh environmental factors.

 

[Time2]

Has anyone here ever measured the temperature in their attic. I had a new metal roof installed and was never happy with the amount of ventilation they put in, I even had them comeback and cut a wider peak vent when I saw how small it was. We have recently had a heatwave with 97* and 98* sunny Days. Our air conditioner has running a lot and I got curious about the temp of my attic. I put a digital thermometer sensor in the attic with the display dropped in the house. During the heat noon, the temperature was only 105.4*F. Left it in again today and the same.
The question is, Have you ever measured the attic temperature? How high did it get?

 

[Sunset]

Has anyone here ever measured the temperature in their attic. I had a new metal roof installed and was never happy with the amount of ventilation they put in, I even had them comeback and cut a wider peak vent when I saw how small it was. We have recently had a heatwave with 97* and 98* sunny Days. Our air conditioner has running a lot and I got curious about the temp of my attic. I put a digital thermometer sensor in the attic with the display dropped in the house. During the heat noon, the temperature was only 105.4*F. Left it in again today and the same.
The question is, Have you ever measured the attic temperature? How high did it get?

Your attic is cold.

When I put a temp sensor in the attic, it hit over 120F. It's an regular asphalt tile roof with extra vents. I've been up there a few times over the years and can say it does get hot. I can't go up on a hot day.

 

[Time2]

Your attic is cold.

When I put a temp sensor in the attic, it hit over 120F. It's an regular asphalt tile roof with extra vents. I've been up there a few times over the years and can say it does get hot. I can't go up on a hot day.

Yes, I think so too, I remember in previous years when it had an asphalt roof working up there and it was very hot, but I never measured it.. Now, with the thermometer, I agree it seems very cool.

 

[latexman]

I have not seen an all-aluminum evaporator. Copper is more expensive and heavier than aluminum. So, why the industry still uses copper?

What's the drawback of an all-aluminum evaporator? Not as good thermal conductance? Aluminum tube not as easy to braze as copper tube?

And by the way between copper and aluminum, the galvanic corrosion attacks aluminum, not copper. So why the problem with leakage?

Then, I saw that the copper serpentine line has a lot of brazed joints. Could it be that these brazed joints get corroded?

If so, can they make a continuous loop of copper or aluminum through the evaporator?

My two Lennox systems have their Quantum Coil.

No matter which metal is corroded, the system weakens and is prone to leakage. That’s the problem.

Making an all-aluminum evaporator is what we are discussing.

 

[NW-Bound]

Making an all-aluminum evaporator is what we are discussing.

I know.

All-aluminum evaporators are still rare, and I have not personally seen one. Hence I asked if this is more difficult to make than the conventional copper tubing. And I found out that the answer is yes.

 

[JoeWras]

I have measured my attic temp. I've even experimented with venting options to see the effect.

During the solstice sunny days, with temps in the 90s outside, it will reach 115 to 125 without power venting. With a gable power vent, it stays more around 110 to 115. I have a water leak sensor up there with an alarm at 130. It has never gone that high.

105 is pretty cool with temps outside in the upper 90s.

BTW: I choose to run the power ventilator to keep the HVAC equipment a bit cooler in the attic. I know it costs money and it can suck air out of the house. That's OK.

 

[freedomatlast]

If anybody needs some, there are several sources for R 410A on ebay for under $500 for 25 pounds including shipping.

Be careful and read the descriptions closely.

I just saw one offer at an impossible low price. The description says that the canister is the 25-lb size, but not full. Buyers beware.

R410A, Full 25 pound cylinders, factory sealed, reputable sellers:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204003836097?hash=item2f7f9380c1:g:6MYAAOSwCXdis3m7


https://www.ebay.com/itm/363433213538?hash=item549e4ebe62:g:qBQAAOSwPRBgkvVB

 

[Qs Laptop]

BTW: I choose to run the power ventilator to keep the HVAC equipment a bit cooler in the attic. I know it costs money and it can suck air out of the house. That's OK.

I have one of these in my attic that is inoperable. I worry (needlessly?) that if there was a fire in the house, the thermostat on the attic fan would dutifully kick on and the action of pulling air out of the attic would accelerate the flames and torch the house.