Not so hypothetical question...

Take the lump sum and roll it into an IRA at Vanguard. Invest the ~$400k in Wellseley Income Fund. Set up an automatic monthly redemption for $3,000/month from the IRA to his checking account.

Then move on to more important things in life like getting a handle on health issues, family, etc.

Wellesley is quick and easy, but it could be STAR fund or a combination. Life Strategy Moderate Growth would not be a bad option either.

If $3,000/month is going to be bad from an ACA perspective then he can shave it down as necessary to optimize ACA given his spending needs.


Thank you!!! This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get from the FP (or this forum!). He has no idea about what fund to invest in once he gets the money. And to be fair, he has to take some responsibility for not being more clear with the FP. He should have just asked to for that kind of advice specifically for a fee.

Do you think he is better taking the lump vs just keeping the monthly pension?

Thanks
 
Exactly - why would you sell an annuity (pension) and use those proceeds to buy another one? American funds indeed pay Financial advisors a lot to push money their way. My parents got taken with them years ago by a similar CFP.


Sorry about what happened to your parents. I've heard so many stories like that it makes it hard to trust people.
 
OP, I am glad you posted your questions up and elicited these responses. IANA eXpert, but what you laid out there did not pass the basic smell test. Hopefully you can divert him from making that mistake.
If he feels he has to cash it out, I liked Pb4Ski's thoughts. Unless his health concerns are very short term survival, I would advise to keep the annuity as-is. If he cashes it out, it is now exposed in many ways. If he needs long term care, it is exposed as a lump.
I'd rather expose it piecemeal as a monthly payment. I think it makes a difference when getting medicaid to help with long term care.

Thank you for you input. His health concerns are not short-term survival and you make very good points about exposure, especially now! Long-term care is definitely a consideration, especially because he is single.
 
I found that statement to be close to unbelievable, and it appears to be. I plugged what I think is their flagship fund, American Mutual Fund, into Portfolio Visualizer. There is about 35 years of history for the Class A shares showing a return of 10.58% against VG 500 Index return of 11.32. That does not account for the load haircut that the victims take -- considering the load the return would be worse. I also ran the Class C shares. PV gave me a 20 year history on that one, 7.27% vs VG 500 at 8.49%. QED.

Well, there is also the 12b-1 fee, which is the gift that keeps giving to the FA, coming right out of the victim's pocket every year and well hidden. And, at least at Fast Eddie's shop, every dividend reinvestment also gets trimmed by the amount of the front end load. My guess is that this is common practice.

I think as a group, American funds are sold, not bought. It would be interesting to know the percentage of shares that are Class A. I am too lazy, however, to dig through the SEC filings to see if this is disclosed.

Now returning to our regular programming, @Omega, I think @pb4's advice is both sound and easy to implement. I suggest that you pass it along to your friend.

Thank you. I don't even know what the fees actually are, and neither does my friend. Is it 3% monthly from every disbursement? Is there a big fee up front? I know these are questions that he will ask the FP and won't sign on for anything before he knows for sure.
 
I would not cash out the pension to buy an annuity other than use some of the pension cash to delay the start of SS, and in that way he is in effect buying inflation adjusted annuity from Uncle Sam. IMHO, that would be the only justification to for buying another annuity because the one from Uncle Sam is a pretty good deal.

Above all keep it simple. There is no good reason this has to be complicated or excessively expensive. And a lot of reasons it shouldn't be.

You might direct him to HumbleDollar website. He could spend few hours a day for a few weeks reading the material there which will provide a very good education in personal finance.

https://humbledollar.com/2022/05/four-horsemen/

One result: Despite the data supporting index funds, many individual investors struggle to keep things simple. Seeing the results of Yale and its peers, they worry that a simple portfolio of index funds might be too simplistic. They feel compelled to add more “interesting” investments to their mix.



But as Swensen himself pointed out, what works for a multi-billion-dollar endowment probably won’t work for an individual investor. A complex portfolio, in fact, is likely to be counterproductive for individual investors. Swensen dedicated an entire book to this topic. The primary reason cited by Swensen: The types of investments available to institutions like Yale simply aren’t open to individuals.



There are other reasons complexity can be a problem. A portfolio of complicated investments makes it difficult to grasp what you own. Does your portfolio consist mostly of stocks or mostly of bonds? The simpler a portfolio, the easier it is to answer that question. Research indicates that this high-level split is the most important factor in driving a portfolio’s risk and return, so it’s critical to monitor where your portfolio stands. Owning more funds—and more complex ones—makes that harder to do.



Another issue with complex investments: They’re typically more expensive. That’s one reason the three-fund approach is so popular. Its three components are typically the three least expensive options available from major fund companies. That’s important because there’s a correlation between lower cost and better performance. As the late Jack Bogle used to say, “You get what you don’t pay for.”



Finally, a complex portfolio is generally less predictable than a simpler one. That’s because newfangled investments, as well as private investment funds, offer less of a track record to evaluate. A related issue: Because it’s hard to know how a complex investment will perform, it’s also difficult to know how it will correlate with a portfolio’s other assets.
 
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I would not cash out the pension to buy an annuity other than use some of the pension cash to delay the start of SS, and in that way he is in effect buying inflation adjusted annuity from Uncle Sam. IMHO, that would be the only justification to for buying another annuity because the one from Uncle Sam is a pretty good deal.

Above all keep it simple. There is no good reason this has to be complicated or excessively expensive. And a lot of reasons it shouldn't be.

You might direct him to HumbleDollar website. He could spend few hours a day for a few weeks reading the material there which will provide a very good education in personal finance.

https://humbledollar.com/2022/05/four-horsemen/

Thank you. I never thought about delaying SS. I worry about the market conditions now thought.
 
The big thing not addressed is, how does that 3500 stack up against his current expenses?
 
I would not cash out the pension to buy an annuity other than use some of the pension cash to delay the start of SS, and in that way he is in effect buying inflation adjusted annuity from Uncle Sam. IMHO, that would be the only justification to for buying another annuity because the one from Uncle Sam is a pretty good deal.

...

+1
You beat me to this suggestion.

Take the lumpsum, invest it in Wellington or other mixed fund (or ones suggested by pb4uski), keeping 2 years worth of cash in the bank to avoid market selling during a large decline, and live off the money and DELAY taking SS. It's a much better deal to delay it than ANY annuity would be because it will increase 8% + inflation, each year of delay AND when collected it is a cola annuity.

NOTE: if your friend is disabled, then of course take SS disability today, but it doesn't sound like the friend is disabled on the very limited info.
 
So the pension is approx 6% payout vs lump sum. $2000 x 12 = $24k / year; $24k / $400k = 6%. No COLA so that $2000 / month will reduce in buying power over time.

I think taking the lump sum and then investing like PB4USKI suggested is better. Not sure of the exact longer term results for Wellesley, but it is probably 6% or better. That way you get the same monthly income, but still have all the principal if needed. Buying an annuity the principal is gone.

Given flexibility, the lump sum and a somewhat conservative investment like Wellesley you get similar income while having the principal available if needed, vs the pure pension from the company.

Completely agree taking lump sum in place of pension (which as pointed out is an annuity) in order to buy an annuity is only a way to lose money.
 
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+1
You beat me to this suggestion.

Take the lumpsum, invest it in Wellington or other mixed fund (or ones suggested by pb4uski), keeping 2 years worth of cash in the bank to avoid market selling during a large decline, and live off the money and DELAY taking SS. It's a much better deal to delay it than ANY annuity would be because it will increase 8% + inflation, each year of delay AND when collected it is a cola annuity.

NOTE: if your friend is disabled, then of course take SS disability today, but it doesn't sound like the friend is disabled on the very limited info.

He has been denied disability, which is infuriating, and he just doesn't have the stamina to fight it.

How do you keep cash in the bank without taking a tax hit?
 
The planner did show him a chart if he just took his pension and SS (which is about the same monthly as the plan with the proposed annuities), and you are exactly right about having some growth as the FP mentioned that. It's the fees that I'm struggling with. He said it's 3 percent and he gets one percent of that.
You're on the right path, and learning more with each response here. Just a few facts to review, so you can get on same page with him, and what he is told.

His pension of 2K monthly is just that, and we assume there is no Cost of Living increase yearly.

Whatever product you're presented with, and even the recommendations here, determine if the monthly payout is fixed, or possibly it may increase.

Also for the above choice, does the solution have a fluctuating balance? For example, if he takes the lump sum and rolls that into an IRA, the balance will fluctuate (unless he puts it all in a money market fund - not recommended).

What you should end up with are 3-4 options in a table, and in each column find out what the expenses are, and all of the other features. It probably can be done on an index card.

Each option can be projected out for 1, 3, 5, 10 and more years.

Since the annuity salesman is not acting as a fiduciary for your friend, you have to go with the obvious, that he is a salesman. That doesn't mean he is evil and trying to ruin you, it just means he is not considering ALL options for the client.

Take care.
 
So the pension is approx 6% payout vs lump sum. $2000 x 12 = $24k / year; $24k / $400k = 6%. No COLA so that $2000 / month will reduce in buying power over time.

I think taking the lump sum and then investing like PB4USKI suggested is better. Not sure of the exact longer term results for Wellesley, but it is probably 6% or better. That way you get the same monthly income, but still have all the principal if needed. Buying an annuity the principal is gone.

Given flexibility, the lump sum and a somewhat conservative investment like Wellesley you get similar income while having the principal available if needed, vs the pure pension from the company.

Completely agree taking lump sum in place of pension (which as pointed out is an annuity) in order to buy an annuity is only a way to lose money.

I think having access to the principal will be somewhat of a relief to him. He was worried about not having enough cash.
 
It looks like the annuities being proposed are inside an IRA. Hmmmmm.........
 
You're on the right path, and learning more with each response here. Just a few facts to review, so you can get on same page with him, and what he is told.

His pension of 2K monthly is just that, and we assume there is no Cost of Living increase yearly.

Whatever product you're presented with, and even the recommendations here, determine if the monthly payout is fixed, or possibly it may increase.

Also for the above choice, does the solution have a fluctuating balance? For example, if he takes the lump sum and rolls that into an IRA, the balance will fluctuate (unless he puts it all in a money market fund - not recommended).

What you should end up with are 3-4 options in a table, and in each column find out what the expenses are, and all of the other features. It probably can be done on an index card.

Each option can be projected out for 1, 3, 5, 10 and more years.

Since the annuity salesman is not acting as a fiduciary for your friend, you have to go with the obvious, that he is a salesman. That doesn't mean he is evil and trying to ruin you, it just means he is not considering ALL options for the client.

Take care.


Thank you. No COLA for the pension. I agree that the FP is not evil, but I do question if he truly has his client's best interest at heart.
 
Omega; said:
He has been denied disability, which is infuriating, and he just doesn't have the stamina to fight it.



How do you keep cash in the bank without taking a tax hit?


Hire an attorney to fight the disability denial. They often deny it until you get an attorney involved.
 
Thank you. No COLA for the pension. I agree that the FP is not evil, but I do question if he truly has his client's best interest at heart.

You are too kind.
While I agree, from knowing a FP that they are not evil, I also know he pushed and sold what the company promoted and really enjoyed his company paid for cruises that he earned.
His concern was how much he was rewarded, not his clients getting the best deal.
 
He has been denied disability, which is infuriating, and he just doesn't have the stamina to fight it.

How do you keep cash in the bank without taking a tax hit?

He will need a lawyer to fight the disability thing.

Forgot it is IRA type money (makes the insurance company annuity less good as if in an IRA will be all taxable upon withdrawal).
So within the IRA, put most of lump sum into Wellington or/and Wesley <sp> fund and leave a little (like 1 year worth) as cash in the IRA, and buy short term treasuries if super concerned about the stock market. Again if too complex, just do all in Wellington or/and Wesley <sp> fund.
 
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He pushed and sold what the company promoted and really enjoyed his company paid for cruises that he earned.
His concern was how much he was rewarded, not his clients getting the best deal.

+1 in spades.
 
He has been denied disability, which is infuriating, and he just doesn't have the stamina to fight it.

How do you keep cash in the bank without taking a tax hit?

Much of the time the difficulty with applying for social security disability is documenting the need in a way that matches the criteria for benefits. Your friend can hire a company such as Allsup to help him file the right documents. This same information can be used to apply for disability through his company.
 
Thank you!!! This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get from the FP (or this forum!). He has no idea about what fund to invest in once he gets the money. And to be fair, he has to take some responsibility for not being more clear with the FP. He should have just asked to for that kind of advice specifically for a fee.

Do you think he is better taking the lump vs just keeping the monthly pension?

Thanks

If his health is questionable, which it sounds like from what you wrote, then definitely the lump sum.
 
Much of the time the difficulty with applying for social security disability is documenting the need in a way that matches the criteria for benefits. Your friend can hire a company such as Allsup to help him file the right documents. This same information can be used to apply for disability through his company.

Thank you. Can this be done after he files for SS? I doubt he will want to spend the energy before he leaves the job.
 
If his health is questionable, which it sounds like from what you wrote, then definitely the lump sum.

That was my thought too, but someone here mentioned long-term care which is something else to think about. Having a pension might be better in that case.
 
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