Part of message I received from contact in Baghdad

[mickeyd]

Extract of message last week from a personal contact who flys w/2-227 Avn Regt, 1st Cav, 2nd tour.

"Soldiers are doing tremendous work here every day. I flew in the backseat of an Air MEDEVAC mission the other day to help out with the medic. Picked up two soldiers on the side of a road that had been hit with an IED while dismounted from their vehicle. A firefight ensued and right after we took off, the Apaches on station put a couple of hellfire missiles into the house where the hostile fire came from. Getting the bad guys one trigger squeeze at a time. The soldiers we evacuated had a couple broken limbs and some facial and head injuries, but because of their body armor and the help their squad members gave them, they'll be just fine. Soldiers from 4th BCT, 1ID are on station and doing well. From my Iraqi 'friends' that I have here, the word on the street is very positive about the troop surge. They say the Militia (equals the 'crazy' people that do the fighting) have all been taken away, killed, or have left the city. That's good. Now we just need to get the
Iraqi Army to believe in themselves and become self sustaining so we can get ourselves out of here. Oh, and we need to get our Congress to quite whining about hating Bush so much. Drives me nuts and my Iraqi buddies question me about it all the time. Definitely hurts the cause over here. The bad guys know that they can just wait us out, that our Govt will pull us out of here "eventually... damn... we want to WIN

 

[eridanus]

Well, that settles it. :

 

[brewer12345]

Snopes check?

 

[Brat]

Of course we will eventually be out of there, we need to make it plain to the Iraqi people that we want to help them stand up. Walking is up to them. Americans will not tolerate becoming an occupying force.

Yes, they need confidence in themselves and need to establish their own security tipping point. However, their future is up to THEM, not us. Unfortunately, for them, their security is not entirely in their hands. I hope at this next Arab conference the neighboring powers will look down the abyss and choose not to fall in.

 

[JohnEyles]

Soldiers are doing tremendous work here every day ...

No doubt our army is the best, in particular the treatment of the wounded (at least until
they get back to USA :-( The flip side of this is that there are WAY more wounded people,
ones who would have died in any other war. And I wonder if our government is really
willing to spend the money it will take to care for them properly for the rest of their
lives ? Early indications are that the answer is "no". I heard something on NPR about
a study estimating those costs and it was staggering. On the other hand, dunno if this is
urban legend, but I've heard that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide since
coming home than were killed in the war.

Now we just need to get the
Iraqi Army to believe in themselves and become self sustaining so we can get ourselves out of here. The bad guys know that they can just wait us out, that our Govt will pull us out of here ...

Problem is, the good guys need to know we will not babysit them forever, that they need to
get their sh*t together, and many feel (including Iraq veterans I've talked to) that the
way to do that is to threaten them with our departure.

 

[CCdaCE]

Extract of message last week from a personal contact who flys w/2-227 Avn Regt, 1st Cav, 2nd tour.

"Loose lips sink ships"

Reading this, al-Queda is going to know they need to 'hit and run' more (than they already do).

Look up Operational Security. I guess most of the e-mails leaving Iraq are scanned anyway, but still.

-CC

 

[Craig]

The bad guys know that they can just wait us out, that our Govt will pull us out of here "eventually... damn... we want to WIN

Always amazing how some of our idiots in Congress don't get this obvious fact. Some voters as well.

 

[Brat]

We can't "win" this for them. They need to grasp the opportunity to win it themselves.

 

[samclem]

On the other hand, dunno if this is
urban legend, but I've heard that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide since
coming home than were killed in the war.

Nope, it's not true.
"In 1999, the Centers for Disease Control conducted the most extensive study to date on this issue. It found that the risk of suicide increased with exposure to combat. Still, the CDC concluded that the overall rate for Vietnam-theater veterans is roughly one per 100 veteran deaths. This would bring the current total to about 6,500.

Michael Kelley, a Vietnam veteran who lives in Sacramento, has spent years tracking the wildly varying suicide estimates.

"In the final analysis," Kelley wrote in a 1999 Washington Post story, "Vietnam veterans likely die from suicide at about the same rate and for the same reasons that everyone else in America does."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051111/news_lz1n11vets.html

The 6500 suicides among Vietnam Theater Veterans compares to a total of 58,209 US combat deaths in the war. The number of suicides is 11.16% of the combat death number.

Vietnam veterans are more likely to be married and more likely to be college educated than those of the same age who did not serve in Vietnam. They are more likely to be employed, and they earn more. Homelessness is less prevalent among Vietnam War vets than in the general population. They are neither more or less likely than others their age to be in prison.

Yet, the stereotypes continue. All we can do is keep pointing out what the facts are . . .

 

[igsoy]

Just curious---

Raise your hand if you know someone who had been to Vietnam who later killed himself?

One kid in my neighborhood...

 

[samclem]

Raise your hand if you prefer anecdotal evidence to actual statistics and studies.

 

[bssc]

Problem is, the good guys need to know we will not babysit them forever, that they need to get their sh*t together, and many feel (including Iraq veterans I've talked to) that the way to do that is to threaten them with our departure.

Who are the good guys anyway? Nouri al Malkiki whose power comes from the Shi'as, especially al-Sadr, who is wanted by the US government for attacks on US troops. The Badr organization? The Kurds (I have the most sympathy for them at this time). The Sunnis who were behind Saddam. The al-Dawa party who attacked the American Embassy in Kuwait in 1983? I think that the way that they are all attacking each other seems to indicate how they will act with or without the US. I would be interesting in knowing if there are any political organizations worth supporting.

I suspect that within several years of the US pulling out, there will be large numbers of Sunni Iraqis fleeing to the US and Europe. Actually, there is a nice Iraqi restaurant near work opened by people who already have.

 

[bssc]

So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

 

[Khan]

So, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys.

Heck, define 'win' and 'lose' in terms of the current reality.

 

[eridanus]

Raise your hand if you prefer anecdotal evidence to actual statistics and studies.

That's a laugh considering this thread.

 

[JohnEyles]

Who are the good guys anyway?

Damn good question - and probably at the crux of the problem.

Presumably the "democratically elected" Iraqi government are the good guys.
Of course, they are Shia-dominated and would arguably like for the US to
leave so that they can continue to consolidate domination over the Sunnis,
without annoying American ideas like inclusiveness muddying things up.
Hmm ...

 

[Mwsinron]

No doubt our army is the best, in particular the treatment of the wounded (at least until
they get back to USA :-( The flip side of this is that there are WAY more wounded people,
ones who would have died in any other war. And I wonder if our government is really
willing to spend the money it will take to care for them properly for the rest of their
lives ? Early indications are that the answer is "no". I heard something on NPR about
a study estimating those costs and it was staggering. On the other hand, dunno if this is
urban legend, but I've heard that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide since
coming home than were killed in the war.

Problem is, the good guys need to know we will not babysit them forever, that they need to
get their sh*t together, and many feel (including Iraq veterans I've talked to) that the
way to do that is to threaten them with our departure.

Why put the blame on our government. I dont see the American people out demanding Vets have better healthcare when they return home.

 

[bssc]

Why put the blame on our government. I dont see the American people out demanding Vets have better healthcare when they return home.

Because the job of the VA, from their website is "We are people who take great pride and deep satisfaction in providing America's veterans with the best clinical care, the most innovative technology, and the most comprehensive array of benefits America has to offer."

I don't think the American people should have to demand decent healthcare for their vets. The problem is that the VA is not doing it and I think that they should rightly be held accountable for their failure to spend our tax dollars wisely.

 

[bssc]

Damn good question - and probably at the crux of the problem.

Presumably the "democratically elected" Iraqi government are the good guys.
Of course, they are Shia-dominated and would arguably like for the US to
leave so that they can continue to consolidate domination over the Sunnis,
without annoying American ideas like inclusiveness muddying things up.
Hmm ...

I agree which is why I think that there will be a tide of Sunni refugees. I think that the middle class has already fled.

The democratically elected government contains at least two parties, the Sadr and Dawa factions that have "allegedly" attacked Americans. However, I am not surprised that in the name of expediency that we ignore this. After all, MacArthur left Hirohito as Emperor.

 

[youbet]

, dunno if this is
urban legend, but I've heard that more Vietnam vets have committed suicide since
coming home than were killed in the war.

As pointed out, this is very much not true, not even close. The fact that "urban legends" like this are circulating among people who otherwise seem capable of knowing what's going on in the world troubles me. A week or two ago, in another thread, a poster stated that the current debacle in Iraq has now taken the lives of more American soldiers than Nam. How can people have such gross misunderstandings about something, Nam, that is so clear and close to me?

I had to lean back and mull the situation over. I mean, how is it possible that so many folks are uninformed of the facts about Nam? Then, damn it, I remembered how damn old I am and the fact that Nam was my war and that current young adults weren't even born during the Nam era.

Just as I was born shortly after WWII (leading edge of the boomers), my son and young adults his age were born after Nam. NOT their war. Whew, time flies by.

Rusty, I'm not taking a poke at you. Just getting my generational perspective straight here.......

 

[donheff]

I suspect that within several years of the US pulling out, there will be large numbers of Sunni Iraqis fleeing to the US and Europe. Actually, there is a nice Iraqi restaurant near work opened by people who already have.

Probably Bathists and probably secular. Not likely to be Islamic terrorists although they may hold a political grudge.

 

[laurence]

As pointed out, this is very much not true, not even close. The fact that "urban legends" like this are circulating among people who otherwise seem capable of knowing what's going on in the world troubles me. A week or two ago, in another thread, a poster stated that the current debacle in Iraq has now taken the lives of more American soldiers than Nam. How can people have such gross misunderstandings about something, Nam, that is so clear and close to me?

I had to lean back and mull the situation over. I mean, how is it possible that so many folks are uninformed of the facts about Nam? Then, damn it, I remembered how damn old I am and the fact that Nam was my war and that current young adults weren't even born during the Nam era.

Just as I was born shortly after WWII (leading edge of the boomers), my son and young adults his age were born after Nam. NOT their war. Whew, time flies by.

Rusty, I'm not taking a poke at you. Just getting my generational perspective straight here.......

A recent poll revealed something like 47% of Americans think Saddam funded and planned the 9/11 attacks. Most people grab onto an idea that fits their world view and sticking with it and ignoring troublesome facts that get in the way. Politicians on both sides of the aisle have a vested interest to not go out of their way to disabuse people of their notions. Whether it be Cheney implying Saddam was involved, or Gore showing coastlines being flooded by global warming that wouldn't happen for hundreds of years in the worst case scenario, and implying it might happen in 50. "Truthyness" rules. :

 

[Elderdude]

"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?

Our job is done. Mission accomplished. Who's next? Bring 'em on! Support the troops by keeping them their until they die? God bless America and George "the decider" Bush.

 

[farmerEd]

"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?

Really...you would think the Iraqis would be more appreciative after all we have done for them.....

 

[FinanceDude]

"The Iraquis need to stand up." Yeah, we came in, blew the **** out of their infrastructure, hunted down the only guy keeping the powder keg of tribal warfare under control, insured that women will go back to being burka covered cattle instead of doctors and teachers. What the hell is wrong with these Iraquis? How can we possibly give them anymore?

Our job is done. Mission accomplished. Who's next? Bring 'em on! Support the troops by keeping them their until they die? God bless America and George "the decider" Bush.

A little bitter, are we??