RE Redefined??

[marko]

So, we all tend to agree on what true RE is: no commute, no kowtowing to the idiot boss, no office politics, no BS, your time is your time.

But recent events have me wondering if, with the new work remote, there's a 'new RE' going on out there. "RE without the FI"

For example:
My neighbor sits in the shade by her pool with her laptop 'at work' and, every 45 minutes or so, takes a dip in her pool, walks the dog, waters her flowers and so on.

Neighbor #2 is a corporate lawyer who only goes into the office on Wednesdays. Most days, he plays an early round of golf before knuckling down to his computer for a few hours, goes out for lunch etc.

Nephew #2 graduated from college three years ago, landed a decent job but has never sat in an office; he works from his extra bedroom. He talks with his boss every day but has never met her face to face. Starts each day at the gym downstairs, no commute, no water cooler talk, has a leisurely lunch down the street with some friends.

Niece #1 is outraged that her very high paying job is now expecting her to be in the office 3 days a week. "When will I get to do my laundry, walk the dog, do my food shopping?

In short, I wonder if RE has been redefined a bit. These people a making decent money but do not have all the hassles that made many of us here seek 'a better way of life'.

Not everyone can do this but for those who do, I wonder if this is similar to those here who have RE'd but then took hobby jobs that just had less hassle, more free time, and a better work/life balance.

For sure, MY interpretation of RE is not working at all and being comfortable with it, or at best, a hobby job or volunteer work but that falls more into the FI aspect. But I do wonder if there is a shift in how we define 'retired early'. It LOOKS like RE but you're still 'at work'.

Comments?

 

[braumeister]

How about "pretired"?

 

[GenXguy]

So they're working from home. Some people have done that going back many years. I did for several months myself. That's not RE.

 

[marko]

So they're working from home. Some people have done that going back many years. I did for several months myself. That's not RE.

They're working from home pretty much full time, again without the hassles--and long hours--that made work a PITA

As noted with niece#1, she doesn't think she's working for that $300k salary, she views it as an interruption to her errands!

 

[Gumby]

I've met plenty of these ROAD* scholars over the course of my life. They're not about to kill themselves working. But who knows; maybe they're smarter than I ever was?



*ROAD - retired on active duty.

 

[MBAustin]

I managed teams with people working from home for the last 10 years of my career, and worked remotely for several weeks each summer from a family vacation house back in the days of 14.4kbps dial-up modems. I routinely had conference calls at 6am or 10pm to accommodate global time schedules, so if I took my laptop down to the dock to work while watching the kids swimming for an hour in the afternoon, it seemed fair to me.

I do think re-adjusting after the COVID work-only-from-home years is tough for many. But I think overall the increased flexibility is good for companies, not to mention taxpayers and the environment from reduced commuting.

 

[ls99]

All of them poolside, cafe, etc. warriors are still performing the dreaded four letter word, W*RK!

 

[marko]

All of them poolside, cafe, etc. warriors are still performing the dreaded four letter word, W*RK!

True, but how many members here on this forum claim to be REd when what they've really done is shift from the heavy grind to part time, paid blogging or a lower paying job offering more flexibility, free time and less hassle? MMM comes to mind.

 

[pacergal]

I would not consider them retired, they are working because they have too, in order to pay bills. They are simply able to work outside of a traditional office environment.

Now, some folks who are retired do go back to work, mostly part time, doing something they enjoy, money is nice, but not required. Meaning they could stop at any time and not have a problem paying bills.

 

[jollystomper]

So they're working from home. Some people have done that going back many years. I did for several months myself. That's not RE.

+1

I started working partially from home almost 20 years ago; eventually, my management said "you decide when you want to come into the office, as long as your objectives are met and you do not cause issues with your team". I was full time from home about 3 years before I retired, due to Megacorp closing our office building.

The difference I see is, when I (and others) began working from home, it was seen as a privilege, earned because you proved to your management that you could be trusted to continue to be productive. Now, it seems to have evolved more into a right. Not saying that is necessarily good or bad, perhaps it is a true sign of where the worker supply and demand is for some industries.

 

[Dtail]

Not truly RE, but not quite what many of us faced in our careers.
Makes places more crowded for us retirees during the day.
Not a chance I could pull this off in my career, even in current times.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Nephew #2 graduated from college three years ago, landed a decent job but has never sat in an office; he works from his extra bedroom. He talks with his boss every day but has never met her face to face. Starts each day at the gym downstairs, no commute, no water cooler talk, has a leisurely lunch down the street with some friends.

Niece #1 is outraged that her very high paying job is now expecting her to be in the office 3 days a week. "When will I get to do my laundry, walk the dog, do my food shopping?

In short, I wonder if RE has been redefined a bit. These people a making decent money but do not have all the hassles that made many of us here seek 'a better way of life'.

Comments?

Son #2 graduated from college early, landed a job a couple of months later, quit that job after 2 months for a better job. A non-negotiable criteria of any job was 100% work from home. No going into the office. He has gone into the office two times in the past year (that I know of) and has traveled out of state on job related business, twice. He's met his boss face to face several times.

He tells me he works everyday but most days are comprised of 2 to 4 hours of actual "work". Otherwise he is at the gym, walking the dog, doing chores, reading, surfing the internet, etc. He might get out of bed at 8:00 am or might get up at 11:00 am. Depends on how late he was up the previous night and/or what he is doing that particular day.

He has a roommate who has a similar lifestyle.

I think this is the new normal for Gen Z'ers. Or at least the desired type of employment. My son tell me it's very common. They do make decent money and they don't have the hassles that we had on the job. Employers seem to be OK with it so long as their work goals are reached.

 

[audreyh1]

Yeah, working mostly from home doesn’t count as you still have serious obligations taking your time and I doubt you can just take off on a long trip under these circumstances without using vacation days.

Definitely an improvement over commuting and being stuck in the office for long days. More power to them if it’s sustainable.

 

[Al18]

I think most of the people listed above got it too easy. I spent my entire career in manufacturing. I retired a year before Covid, but my old company was not closed a single day for Covid - the company was deemed essential.

 

[Aerides]

They're working from home pretty much full time, again without the hassles--and long hours--that made work a PITA

true, they've removed a lot of the hassles, but for me, even though I was WFH for my last 4 years, it wasn't that much different.

I was still on the hook for issues, deliverables, conference calls (ugh web cams), people management. I still had to do 73 revisions on every stupid powerpoint, and respond to late calls when problems came up. Or be on a call with a super important VP who happened to be travelling and wanted an update at 11am local time when they were the other side of the planet.

I still had those little anxieties of unresolved daily problems waking me up as I tried to go to sleep. That's why I retired despite so many around me saying I had it made.

My sister has been mostly WAH since March2020, and now she says... Oh, I get it, WFH is still... W.

 

[Andre1969]

When they sent me home to work remotely when COVID hit, and then the economy recovered to the point that I figured I was financially independent, I started calling that stage "in limbo." Sort of on the cusp between working full time and being retired, with some of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Anyway, I would not call any of these people in the above examples "retired." Especially if they're not financially independent yet. They may be enjoying some perks of retirement by working at home, such as some increased flexibility, more free time, etc. But if they lose that job, they need to find another, if they're not financially independent. And that time between jobs is not "retired." It's "unemployed." or "on sabbatical" at best.

Speaking of pools, I went in mine for the first time this season, earlier this morning, while still "on the clock." Water temp is about 75 degrees. I was only able to get in to not quite my belly button.

 

[skyking1]

I don't worry so much about these definitions. If I choose to work some more because I enjoy it I don't consider that work. If somebody called me up while my certifications were still good and asked me if I wanted to work a couple of weeks on the water, I'd have a hard time turning that down. It's just so much fun!

 

[scrabbler1]

So they're working from home. Some people have done that going back many years. I did for several months myself. That's not RE.

+1

About 20 years ago, I worked mostly from home for just over 2 years. It was part of my part-time work schedule, where I worked 20 hours a week but went to the office only 1 day a week and worked about 1/3 of those total hours. There were 8 agreed-upon "required" hours spread out over 2 other days. The remaining ~6 hours were my "anytime" hours I would work. Often, those hours were in the evening or on weekends because a lot of my job included running big mainframe programs which ran more quickly in the off-peak times.

This change to my everyday life compared to working full-time with all hours at the office represented a huge change to my everyday life. I could do my errands on weekday mid-mornings instead of the far busier weekends.

Working on the reduced pay was the easiest part of the change because I had paid off the mortgage 3 years earlier and was needing only 1 miweekly paycheck to pay the bills.

But I never considered myself fully retired. Semi-retired, yes. But no "RE," at least not yet. That would have to wait 7 years until I could rid myself of the part-time (then only 12) hours per week.

 

[Koolau]

+1

I started working partially from home almost 20 years ago; eventually, my management said "you decide when you want to come into the office, as long as your objectives are met and you do not cause issues with your team". I was full time from home about 3 years before I retired, due to Megacorp closing our office building.

The difference I see is, when I (and others) began working from home, it was seen as a privilege, earned because you proved to your management that you could be trusted to continue to be productive. Now, it seems to have evolved more into a right. Not saying that is necessarily good or bad, perhaps it is a true sign of where the worker supply and demand is for some industries.

Very true. But some day, the "worm will turn." Some day, w*rk will be hard to come by again. In those days (as in the past) folks will be glad to go to a designated w*rk place. The pendulum swings back and forth.

I'm so glad I'm passed the "need" for w*rk. I hope my kids don't have to go through "hard times" but I'm guessing they will. Many of us here had to go through hard times. We're stronger for it, but we also know that hard times do come. I don't think the "privileged" w*rkers will be ready, but they'll quickly learn. Just like some of us did. YMMV

 

[OnTheBeach]

After I retired in 2016, I was approached in 2017 to join a start up that would be part time and the ability to work from home. It was great until the business got biggger and more complicated and once again I was waking up in the middle of the night to rethink/reassess decisions that I made earlier in the day. The start up closed last year and I am retired again. I was successful and retired early (the first time at 46) due to my drive and ambition - not the location of my office.

 

[rk911]

I would not consider them retired, they are working because they have too, in order to pay bills. They are simply able to work outside of a traditional office environment.

Now, some folks who are retired do go back to work, mostly part time, doing something they enjoy, money is nice, but not required. Meaning they could stop at any time and not have a problem paying bills.

that’s us. we both were employed (different from work) for several years after FIRE. one of my employers was volunteering at the county history museum. we also were employed by our city as paid school crossing guards.

retirement to us means the freedom to do as we please for as long as we please with no financial jeopardy or downside. if you’re working out of necessity you are most definitely not RE.

 

[Spock]

I've met plenty of these ROAD* scholars over the course of my life. They're not about to kill themselves working. But who knows; maybe they're smarter than I ever was?



*ROAD - retired on active duty.

All of these comments about "they are actually working, just remote" may be true for some, but a lot of remote workers are "just phoning it in" doing the absolute bare minimum. Pre-c*vid we called them IPRs... In-Plant Retirees. They couldn't pull their own weight when under direct supervision when in the office and with that removed they are just doing enough to not get fired knowing the labor market is tight.

 

[Aerides]

All of these comments about "they are actually working, just remote" may be true for some, but a lot of remote workers are "just phoning it in" doing the absolute bare minimum. Pre-c*vid we called them IPRs... In-Plant Retirees. They couldn't pull their own weight when under direct supervision when in the office and with that removed they are just doing enough to not get fired knowing the labor market is tight.

Then they suck at the office or at home, and that's a management issue. "Just enough" was not good enough in my MC after 2008/9. Those that thought they could skate by were routinely cut in mini-RIF's each year.

It's not hard to get good work from home-office workers, but it is a skill set. Some aren't suited for it (the worker or their manager, and when both are bad at it, it's a disaster). But for those that can and do work well remotely, often putting in more hours than they would at their office desk, it can work very well. Depends on the culture of the company, the team, etc.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

The barrier for a white collar side gig in retirement has gone down so it will be easier to supplement retirement income.

I think the rest of the "I only work from home" thing is an aberration and the younger people who are entrenching themselves in it are likely to suffer lasting career and income damage.

While they are working 4 hours/day from home there is another part of Gen Z that is working unbelievably hard, picking up interpersonal skills and setting a high bar for themselves. They are making positive impressions and building the kind of trust with management that only comes with facetime and casual conversations. I am promoting two Gen Z'ers on my team who are fantastic. And who get facetime with the C-suite because they are present. These people get opportunities while the remote folks are not even considered.

I inherited two full time remote employees. I will be eliminating those positions later this year as they simply are not as productive/creative/engaged as the people who come to the office. They are not developing the same ability to present complex information. When given opportunities to present, they stumble their way through and just sort of stare into the Teams window. They have no ability to read the room or learn from the "after the meeting meeting" that always occurs.

Let the movie play out a bit -- compounded by the looming effects of Generative AI and companies losing patience with transactional employees -- and I predict badness for the 20-somethings who only work from home. Over the long haul you can only be paid for what you produce.

My megacorp is going to four days/week this fall and is done kidding around. People have been terminated for not coming to the office. One C-level told all of his org they either needed to move back to our HQ city or be terminated without severance. He followed it through.

When the "I only work from home" people are 30 and complaining that they can't get ahead, they are going to get zero sympathy from their current peers who are now in managment positions. I am already seeing it.

 

[ncbill]

Yep, even Financial Samurai wrote a blog post about how much easier it is nowadays to work in retirement, so if you want supplemental income there are more opportunities than ever.

But neither of my kids will be working remotely anytime soon...one is LEO, another is an active duty military pilot.

Of course, both could be retired with COLA pension in as little as 20 years.