Recommendations for move from California to France

[MikeyInMarin]

I retire this year and plan to move from my house in the San Francisco area to an apartment in Nice, France. One big hurdle is figuring out the options to get my stuff from here to there. An international shipping company is the obvious choice; very easy, convenient and expensive. Are there ways to economize? I’ve heard of sharing a container. Any other’s experience with such a move is appreciated.

In case it matters: I have begun downsizing big time and will rent my house for income.

 

[COcheesehead]

Sell everything, buy new or used there.

 

[aja8888]

Sell everything, buy new or used there.

Agree with this but try to rent a furnished apartment there.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

I have some things that are ‘til death do us part’.

I do plan on renting a starter furnished apartment to do my permanent apartment search (and get my French residency visa started).

 

[ivinsfan]

I have some things that are ‘til death do us part’.

I do plan on renting a starter furnished apartment to do my permanent apartment search (and get my French residency visa started).

How many things ?

 

[braumeister]

Look at this thread:
https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/moving-back-to-europe-93445.html

The OP in that thread was doing basically the same as what you plan.

Post #166 in that thread seems to indicate a shipping cost between $3.50 and $5.00 per pound, but that was a few years ago.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

Braumeister: thank you.

I tried searching for movers and didn’t find anything useful.

 

[Freedom56]

I would not ship large furniture over there. Apartments in France don't have large freight elevators or wide open corridors. If you are shipping boxes, just use FEDEX or DHL. You will need a forwarding address. Nice is a great city with some of the best food anywhere.

 

[Gotadimple]

And you have already established a banking relationship in France?

I met a woman on a group tour who worked in France for a few years before retiring. She described a hard time getting a bank set up so she could pay her bills. It was resolved, but took some communication with the bank staff to assure them she was living and working there.

- Rita

 

[Alan]

Our daughter has just moved from California to England and her delicate and expensive musical instruments she sent over via FedEx. The UK has a Transfer of Residence application where you don’t have to pay import duties on any goods that you have owned for 6 months or more. Not sure if France has similar.

Getting a bank account set up before you go may be very problematic but Wise is an excellent resource, and you can hold money in many currencies, with local country bank account numbers, and a debit card for use in the local currency.

 

[Alan]

Look at this thread:
https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/moving-back-to-europe-93445.html

The OP in that thread was doing basically the same as what you plan.

Post #166 in that thread seems to indicate a shipping cost between $3.50 and $5.00 per pound, but that was a few years ago.

Well remembered, that is a good thread to browse through.

 

[Alan]

Before you leave be sure that you check that your US accounts with banks and brokerages support overseas customers.

Set up accounts with SS and the IRS before you leave, almost impossible to do so once you are not US resident.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

That post was great. It covered many areas I hadn’t thought of, with lots of things for me to think over.

My circumstances are different than FIREd. Main example: I am taking advantage of the US / France retirement tax treaty (I couldn’t do the move without it), so my tax situation is very different. I plan to keep my retirement accounts in the US (but moved to Schwab from Vanguard and Fido).

We do have one amusing thing in common: we both don’t get why high season in Nice is summer!

 

[MikeyInMarin]

GotADimple: I thought I had the banking thing figured out. I opened an HSBC Expat account. But then found out it is useless in France. I am trying to open an HSBC France account with great frustration. I might just do what FIREd did and open a US HSBC account and go through that account to get one in France.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

Alan: thanks

I just made the IRS account. I moved my retirement accounts because Schwab allows overseas access.

 

[Alan]

Alan: thanks

I just made the IRS account. I moved my retirement accounts because Schwab allows overseas access.

Well done. I didn’t do that and it was extremely time consuming to do so from abroad. After all the forms had been submitted I had to have a videoconference with an IRS appointed notary to answer questions, hold and show my passport and to show my SS card front and back. And despite being given an appointment I was on hold for almost 5 hours. I was expecting this from the experience of other expats reported on a forum I frequent so it wasn’t a surprise.

Check also that Schwab’s 2FA will work for you, do they support non-US phone numbers etc. (Vanguard use our UK numbers)

I also still have my US Skype account which means toll free US numbers are still free. It costs nothing to have a Skype account unless you want a US number that people can call.

 

[Dd852]

GotADimple: I thought I had the banking thing figured out. I opened an HSBC Expat account. But then found out it is useless in France. I am trying to open an HSBC France account with great frustration. I might just do what FIREd did and open a US HSBC account and go through that account to get one in France.

I’m an HSBC premier client with accounts in Hong Kong, US and UK. I also have a business account with HSBC Paris and I have found HSBC France by far the worst to deal with. If I weren’t so invested in the HSBC network and if I didn’t dread the bureaucracy so much I’d switch happily (assuming I could find someplace better!). But they are really hopeless: lose paperwork, very un-electronic, nice but unhelpful, and basically frustrating. I don’t have a better recommendation but surely some other bank has its act together!

 

[cho oyu]

GotADimple: I thought I had the banking thing figured out. I opened an HSBC Expat account. But then found out it is useless in France. I am trying to open an HSBC France account with great frustration. I might just do what FIREd did and open a US HSBC account and go through that account to get one in France.

Renting an apartment as a US citizen, especially without French permanent residency (i.e. only on a one year visa), may be extremely challenging. A few thoughts:


You absolutely will have to have a bank account, and this is difficult if you do not have a university or work affiliation. Fortunately, French law requires it, and if you are rejected at two banks, you can write to the federal government and they will force a bank to give you an account. Unfortunately, that account may still be relatively useless (limits on deposits, often no debit card, etc.). It may be possible to open an on-line account at a major EU based bank with French branches (e.g. like the afore-mentioned HSBC), and then use that as a previous French bank to transfer to a physical location; nonetheless, the local bank manager will say yes or no. Nice and Aix are the only two places in Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azure that have many US expats (something like 95% in all of France are in the Paris area), so you may be able to find a banker who will accept this type of transfer. Note that it is literally the local bank manager who makes that decision to accept or deny your account, and there is no higher level recourse (except the federal government).

You will almost certainly not be able to rent an unfurnished apartment (and will not want to, because there is little point in immediately buying furniture or the cost/time for shipping), as the landlord is required to let it for a minimum of 3 years. Furnished apartments are a minimum 1 year let, but it may take time to find one, and your 1 year visa could expire - which means most rental agencies may not let to you (really, it's just an excuse because the paperwork is a bit harder). Private landlords, or agencies that cater to expats would be your best bet, and again Nice has some benefits over smaller towns in that region. I would recommend planning on an AirBnB type rental for at least a month, and it could easily be longer.

For shipping, pay for a couple of extra bags on your flight, or have someone ship to you via FedEx - don't waste the money or 12 weeks of time for partial container shipping. Note that receiving packages may not be trivial depending on the residence; an apartment complex with a guarded desk will often be delivered to, a house might or might not, but a locked/RFID type entrance apartment will not be delivered to. Smaller packages less than 20lbs or so could go to a local business that acts as an agent for the delivery company, but you might need to go to the airport (I think for FedEx in Nice?) to get any very large or heavy packages.



The financial (and residency) bureaucracy can be astonishingly byzantine if you are primarily used to the US system. Bonne chance !

 

[cho oyu]

And while I am thinking about it...

You also will most likely be unable to get a local bank account until you have a local address. Unfortunately, you need a bank account with a local IBAN to rent (e.g. TransferWise IBAN will likely not be accepted). It creates quite the paradox.

A few other requirements that might exist for renting: you might have to show 3 months of bank account history that show incoming money (e.g. from a job or pension), you might have to show a job contract (CDI - or permanent position, as a CDD (often 1-3 year contract) is often inadequate), and even incoming transfers of constant amounts of money may not be adequate if you are not of standard pensioner age.

Some of these items might be possible to circumvent if you have someone local who can financially guarantee you (i.e. cosign) and provide an initial permanent address.

Hopefully you'll avoid 90% of the difficulties and have smooth sailing - consider this to be something to be aware of and perhaps have contingencies for, rather than something that will absolutely happen.

 

[socca]

... The financial (and residency) bureaucracy can be astonishingly byzantine if you are primarily used to the US system. Bonne chance !

Megacorp hired a French local to help me navigate the bureaucracy when I lived in Nice 20+ years ago. Very useful!

 

[oiseux]

There is quite a bit of help/reference available on two expat groups on FB for Americans retiring in France. Two are just for retiring people, and one is heavy on Nicois. You can get names of recommended movers.

Let me add a few perspectives:
a. You can get a longer term rental, possible on a mobility lease, to secure a visa.
b. Securing an apartment can be challenging as noted by others. Even with a third part guarantor (like insurance for the landlord) it can be difficult. People have had the most success getting placed with foreign landlords. For the French landlords, CDI (French employment contracts) and people below a certain age are preferred, because the laws are so protective.
c. We have an account with a local bank in Nice, than our property consultant facilitated when we bought. She made the introduction and set up the appointments. It is a lot more difficult than when we did it 6 years ago (we bought in advance of retiring early)
d. Yes, there are services to help with relocation and securing an apartment.

On the furniture question, I actually do suggest that you won't need much. Primarily personal decor and sentimental items --- personal objects, photos, art, etc.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

Oiseux: i am planning to get a 5 month short term rental. I arrive in Nice September 1. In fact I have a studio that is pending approval from it’s landlord on the Morning croissant site. I had no idea how complex getting a rental (especially as a foreigner) was in France: The dossier, garant (sp?). And of course the post-FATCA bank account.

Worst case scenario: go through Adrien Leeds.

 

[MikeyInMarin]

Oiseux: one more thing. I am in the FB American retiree group. What is the Nice group called? I am in a Nice group that is just spam.

 

[oiseux]

Oiseux: i am planning to get a 5 month short term rental. I arrive in Nice September 1. In fact I have a studio that is pending approval from it’s landlord on the Morning croissant site. I had no idea how complex getting a rental (especially as a foreigner) was in France: The dossier, garant (sp?). And of course the post-FATCA bank account.

Worst case scenario: go through Adrien Leeds.

I'll go ahead and PM you the details.

It is complex getting a rental due to the preferences of the French landlords for CDI and the very difficult laws on landlords (it is very difficult to evict someone). The Garant.me (insurance that you take out for the landlord) helps but I've heard is often not enough. Foreign landlords tend to be more flexible. Five months will give you plenty of lead time and will allow you to figure out what works for you.

We used Adrian Leeds to find our apartment, but that was a purchase.