Sister thinks POA means OWNER

[ERD50]

A quick conversation could shed a lot of light on this, instead of trying to guess. A reluctance on the part of the OP to ask Mom directly is a red flag, no? Mom might have some good and non-demented reasons that she's doing things like this. Maybe have the three people concerned discuss things together?

We have not heard back from the OP, but this thread was started just over 24 hours ago.

A reply might shed a lot of light... I think I see a glimmer, in my crystal ball ...

-ERD50

 

[km4hr]

A quick conversation could shed a lot of light on this, instead of trying to guess. A reluctance on the part of the OP to ask Mom directly is a red flag, no? Mom might have some good and non-demented reasons that she's doing things like this. Maybe have the three people concerned discuss things together?

I agree that talking to Mom is a great idea. I have no reservation at all about doing that. I visit her every Sunday evening. We have light conversation, usually about the same trivial things over and over. She has family pictures on the wall. She asks me repeatedly who the people are. Last Sunday she asked me who the man is standing beside her in one picture. I told her it was her husband. Her response was comical. She said, "which husband"? (She only had one.)

Mom can't maintain focus on a subject for more than a few of sentences before she trails off to something else. The fact is, I've told Mom about my sister's secrecy. I've asked if that's what she wants. But she doesn't take it seriously. If I asked her to discuss it with my sister and she'd probably say ok, but then forget about it. So what can I do? Maybe hire a lawyer to go with me and hear what Mom says? Even if Mom told sister to share the information she'd ignore it. Mom's not going to follow up and see that it's done. Her memory is shot.

Interestingly, Mom can do math. I asked her a math question that i heard on public radio. It went something like this. If you buy a banana for 80 cents and sell it for a dollar what is your profit? She immediately said 20 cents. It sounds simple but NPR said fewer than 20% of people over 80 answer it correctly (or something like that).

 

[samclem]

I agree that talking to Mom is a great idea. I have no reservation at all about doing that. I visit her every Sunday evening. We have light conversation, usually about the same trivial things over and over. She has family pictures on the wall. She asks me repeatedly who the people are. Last Sunday she asked me who the man is standing beside her in one picture. I told her it was her husband. Her response was comical. She said, "which husband"? (She only had one.)

Okay, this puts a new light on things. This is not just her misplacing the TV remote occasionally or just not wanting to bother with the details of her finances.

I don't see much that is especially questionable about Sis's actions, but it is clear that she's operating without supervision from your Mom, and that Mom may no longer be capable of evaluating what is going on and in discerning what is best for her. If the three of you can't decide to open the books for each other and handle things together, then it will be time for you to take formal steps to assure her interests are protected.

 

[pb4uski]

Perhaps the OP should propose that sister be appointed guardian... from what the OP wrote it is obvious that Mom is unable to do things for herself and needs a guardian...sister may readily agree believing that she would gain more power... what she would later find out after being appointed guardian is the fiduciary and financial accountability associated with the role... she will have to provide the courts and interested parties with reports of details on her ward's assets, liabilities, income and expenses.

 

[Texas Proud]

Wow oh wow... a fast moving thread that I had not seen before for some reason...

As other have mentioned, I do not think that she has to provide you with any info..... however, I would insist on knowing what was happening to mom's money...

First, who knows if it was your mom or your sis to start the $14K per grand kid per year... on quick read that is at least 4 kids... so $56K per year over 5 years is $280K... not a small sum for a $2 mill estate...

Now, if the money was being given to the kids, that is different since you would be getting your cut... and if your sis thought her kids needed the money she could just pass it down...


I actually have POA for my mom... and none of my siblings have ever asked for a review of the money.... two called a few weeks ago when they all went on a cruise since mom had told them I said she was out of money (not true).... I told them what I said to mom was that she needed to stop buying stuff from people who call as I have to spend a lot of time trying to get it back...


I would first talk to mom... but if she has no clue as to her finances, then she cannot give you anything you need.... I would then go to sis and insist on looking at the books... (this is only if mom really does not know what is going on... if she does know then it is none of your business)... if sis is unwilling to disclose anything, then tell her you will be contacting a lawyer...

This is a possible $700K issue to you.... sure, mom could burn through that all for her expenses, which is fine IMO, but sis should not be converting it to her benefit...

 

[NW-Bound]

Perhaps the OP should propose that sister be appointed guardian... from what the OP wrote it is obvious that Mom is unable to do things for herself and needs a guardian...sister may readily agree believing that she would gain more power... what she would later find out after being appointed guardian is the fiduciary and financial accountability associated with the role... she will have to provide the courts and interested parties with reports of details on her ward's assets, liabilities, income and expenses.

This could be the solution!

If an elder is deemed mentally incompetent, then does someone have to be a guardian? And if the guardian has to provide reports and is held accountable, then it would cut down the risk of financial abuse.

As we discussed earlier, there's always a risk that a heir with a POA underspends what is necessary for the elder's well-being, or spends all the money before it is needed. It's not necessarily about guarding one's inheritance, but to protect the right of the elder.

 

[48Fire]

If my refusal to provide details to one of my siblings is grounds for a police investigation and subpoena for bank records, something is wrong. She has no need to know, and neither do the authorities. At most, I think the police might be entitled to a polite conversation.

When I read our DPOA legal documents, I think a sibling has some legal rights to pursue us. That's why I always answer any questions. I know from experience that lawyers, judges, and law enforcement questions are much more painful.

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[48Fire]

Two red flags for me:

1. The sis has mom sign the checks. As was just pointed out, he/she doesn't need to sign the checks if sis has POA. So is there a POA? If there is, sis isn't doing it properly. And if this check writing occurs during a Christmas visit, why isn't OP allowed to also visit at Christmas?

2. OP pointed out that she is the only one left out of the meeting when the grandkid's checks are written. Why is the OP disinvited to this ? What are the other siblings hiding?

The OP is acting in her mother's interest-what if mom lives a long time and needs dementia care. Her money needs to pay for this. What happens if it's gone?

The OP should contact the local probate court in her mother's jurisdiction if she has concerns.

https://www.caring.com/questions/power-of-attorney-acting-fraudulently.

We do/did the same with MIL, so not necessarily red flags. She can still sign with POA. We helped her sign until she was incapable, at which point the Durable part of DPOA kicks in.

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[RunningBum]

The OP doesn't say the sister outright refuses to talk about it, but instead just changes the subject.

Every year I ask for an update but she says I'm too concerned about money and changes the subject. She's offended and shocked that I don't trust her.

I can't tell what really goes on here but if it's just a yearly request that gets deflected, before contacting a lawyer I'd be more insistent with the sister, and explain why in as non-confrontational manner as I could manage. Perhaps that has already been done but it's not at all clear.

 

[John Galt III]

Ideally someone with POA would *voluntarily* share the financial info with the siblings, since I think the siblings would be embarrassed to have to ask, and would become more suspicious as time goes by with no info forthcoming. Maybe it's a matter of siblings not knowing how to ask in a non-threatening, non-ugly way. But I do understand that if the siblings already don't trust one another, then things are different.

 

[45th Birthday]

Late to the party here, looks like a lot of popcorn is being consumed.


My wife has POA (health and financial) for her parents. Dad is pretty senile, mom is more OK but does get confused and forgetful. If either or both of my wife's brothers asked for any statements or reports on the financial situation, my wife would not be able to provide them. Why? She simply doesn't know. Doesn't have the information, and it's not going to be forthcoming soon.

 

[harley]

It definitely makes a difference with Mom being as far gone as she now seems to be. I didn't read it that way earlier in the thread. I would still recommend talking with sister, perhaps more vehemently, before going into the legal system. And I really do like the idea of having the sister appointed guardian. It's an excellent, underhanded (that's a compliment from me), method of getting what you want, while still keeping the family relationships intact.

 

[ERD50]

Just a side note on POA, something I only realized after the fact, that might help others.

I was helping my Mom with her finances after her heart surgery and recovery, and that was mostly just making sure bills got paid. I'd fill out the checks for her to sign. And though she was of sound mind, some days she was so tired she'd be asleep during my visit, or just so groggy that I didn't feel right asking her to sign something she wouldn't understand or remember. At that point, we both agreed it would be best for me to get POA for her financial matters.

But... her checking account was under her trust (POA doesn't apply - the trust rules do), and a few years ago we had her name a local bank as trustee due to problems with one sibling that we didn't want to have to deal with. So I couldn't get signature authority on her checking account w/o going through the process of having the bank take over everything, which looks like it would take some formal step of having her declared incompetent. Maybe she could have talked to the bank direct to give me signature authority on that account, I don't know.

Bottom line, I think it would be good to have a checking account outside the trust with enough to pay bills for a few months. But not so much as to hit probate levels in your state. That's how we have it with my DW and her mother, and it seems to work well.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Late to the party here, looks like a lot of popcorn is being consumed.

My wife has POA (health and financial) for her parents. Dad is pretty senile, mom is more OK but does get confused and forgetful. If either or both of my wife's brothers asked for any statements or reports on the financial situation, my wife would not be able to provide them. Why? She simply doesn't know. Doesn't have the information, and it's not going to be forthcoming soon.

Why not? One should have all the statements for bank and brokerage accounts, transactions and withdrawals from IRA's, 401k's, etc...

One has to keep track of the money and to be aware of any movement, lest some identity thieves get in and steal all the money.

If I accept the POA for someone, I will have to safeguard that person's asset as my own against shenanigans. Perhaps I am wrong, and that responsibility rests with a guardian, and a POA can wash his hands.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Wow...I didn't know there were so many people on this board that were lawyers!

Laws differ in regards to this, so the bottom line is that if the OP thinks the sister is breaching the fiduciary duty to the mother, she should contact an attorney that is skilled in this area. As an example, in some jurisdictions a guardian cannot also be the conservator...it requires two separate entities to carry out these duties. Also, in some jursiticaions, if you seek court action (like declaring the person incompetent) and court disagrees, you can't seek the same remedy for a set period of time. Again, these laws can be VERY specific and VERY different, so local help is a REQUIREMENT. Sometimes advice from the internet is just like the State Farm commercial.

 

[pb4uski]

Are you a lawyer? If not, then who are you to judge?

FWIW, I am POA for my Mom and have been a court-appointed guardian twice so I picked up a little knowledge along the way.

 

[pb4uski]

.....My wife has POA (health and financial) for her parents. Dad is pretty senile, mom is more OK but does get confused and forgetful. If either or both of my wife's brothers asked for any statements or reports on the financial situation, my wife would not be able to provide them. Why? She simply doesn't know. Doesn't have the information, and it's not going to be forthcoming soon.

Why not? One should have all the statements for bank and brokerage accounts, transactions and withdrawals from IRA's, 401k's, etc...

One has to keep track of the money and to be aware of any movement, lest some identity thieves get in and steal all the money.

If I accept the POA for someone, I will have to safeguard that person's asset as my own against shenanigans. Perhaps I am wrong, and that responsibility rests with a guardian, and a POA can wash his hands.

I read 45th Birthday's post as meaning that his wife has a POA in the drawer (isn't using it) and that would be why she wouldn't have the information... but if she is paying bills, etc then I would think that she would have the information. Perhaps 45th Birthday will come back and clarify.

 

[NW-Bound]

I read 45th Birthday's post as meaning that his wife has a POA in the drawer (isn't using it) and that would be why she wouldn't have the information... but if she is paying bills, etc then I would think that she would have the information. Perhaps 45th Birthday will come back and clarify.

In that case, the problem is different, in that nobody is looking after the parents' finance, and it may be time someone steps up to do it, or at least offers help, or looks over their shoulders.

As he wrote:

Dad is pretty senile, mom is more OK but does get confused and forgetful.

 

[45th Birthday]

In that case, the problem is different, in that nobody is looking after the parents' finance, and it may be time someone steps up to do it, or at least offers help, or looks over their shoulders.

As he wrote:

There is an accountant who pays bills and staff who cares for them. More and more involvement on my wife's part will become necessary as they are starting to think about assisted living, real estate disposal, etc. Even though nothing is really going on, one brother was miffed that she was appointed POA and not him. It was because he is an alcoholic and has had screaming fits at them in public places.

 

[athena53]

Another thought on the OP, having nothing to do with expectations of inheritance. Clearly Mom is failing and needs help, family or otherwise. If the sister is making unwise decisions (and Mom is agreeable without understanding), funds that Mom might need for future care might be gone. OP has already mentioned the sister's perception that OP is doing well. Will the family look to OP to chip in if Mom outlives her savings? Some of her land has already been sold with no information about where the money went.

My mother was in charge of her elderly father's finances in his last year-not sure if she had a POA. I can tell you she was very transparent with her 4 brothers. Mom had a HS education and two of her brothers had doctorates but Mom would have been a great accountant.

 

[pb4uski]

....Some of her land has already been sold with no information about where the money went. ...

I don't see anything like that in this thread... where is this coming from?

 

[rodi]

I don't see anything like that in this thread... where is this coming from?

It was mentioned earlier

I do have a brother and he doesn't seem concerned. He has children who participate in the large gifts from Mom each year too. I don't know if sister and brother communicate about the estate, but I suspect they do. I do know that Mom inherited about 100 acres of farm land. Sister and brother decided it was too much trouble to maintain so they talked Mom into selling it. They never even considered the tax consequences. I was opposed to the sale and was cut out of the conversation. I'm single with no kids and have been conservative with my finances. So they think I've got plenty of money and don't need any more. Maybe I'm paranoid but I wouldn't be surprised if they're working on Mom to their advantage.

 

[km4hr]

First, who knows if it was your mom or your sis to start the $14K per grand kid per year... on quick read that is at least 4 kids... so $56K per year over 5 years is $280K... not a small sum for a $2 mill estate...

Every year since 2008/9(?) Mom's 3 children get the gift tax limit of $14k at Christmas time. Each of 5 grands get $10k.

It all started like this. After Dad died in 2007 Mom and her 3 children, including me, met with a lawyer to close out Dads estate. At that time, the estate tax limit was about to expire. Congress would soon be deciding what the new limit should be. The lawyer thought Congress would cut the limit from $3M(?) to around $1M or so. This would have hit Mom's estate hard if she died since she had well over $1M. The lawyer recommended Mom start giving maximal tax free gifts to her children and grandchildren to quickly reduce the size of her estate. Brother and Sister were absolutely euphoric about the recommendation.

But instead of reducing the estate tax limit, as the lawyer had anticipated, Congress increased it instead. The new high limit eliminated the high tax threat from Mom's estate. There was no longer any need to reduce Mom's assets to avoid estate taxes. But you can probably guess what happened to the large gifts that the lawyer initiated. They have continued unabated ever since.

No doubt the large gifts have taken a huge chunk out of Mom's assets over the years. It probably explains why Sister quit sharing Mom's account balance with me. It also likely explains why Brother is not complaining. He's got 3 kids.

Dad is probably rolling over in his grave. I'm sure he intended his 3 children to inherit equally, and not after his estate was diminished by large gifts to grands. Mom, on the other hand, is totally passive about financial matters. She'd go along with just about anything to keep the peace. And Brother and Sister would not have allowed any peace if Mom stopped the large gifts. I complained loudly after the estate tax limits changed, but was simply outnumbered. So the grand kids went from getting maybe $100 Christmas gifts to getting $10k instead, all at the mistaken recommendation of an estate lawyer. Pretty sweet huh?

 

[Texas Proud]

Another thought on the OP, having nothing to do with expectations of inheritance. Clearly Mom is failing and needs help, family or otherwise. If the sister is making unwise decisions (and Mom is agreeable without understanding), funds that Mom might need for future care might be gone. OP has already mentioned the sister's perception that OP is doing well. Will the family look to OP to chip in if Mom outlives her savings? Some of her land has already been sold with no information about where the money went.

My mother was in charge of her elderly father's finances in his last year-not sure if she had a POA. I can tell you she was very transparent with her 4 brothers. Mom had a HS education and two of her brothers had doctorates but Mom would have been a great accountant.

I agree.... along with the gifting of funds to grand kids... to me this is a big no-no.... it is not like there is an estate tax issue... so why give them any money right now Are they going to be putting money up if she needs it? I do not think so...

 

[Texas Proud]

Every year since 2008/9(?) Mom's 3 children get the gift tax limit of $14k at Christmas time. Each of 5 grands get $10k.

It all started like this. After Dad died in 2007 Mom and her 3 children, including me, met with a lawyer to close out Dads estate. At that time, the estate tax limit was about to expire. Congress would soon be deciding what the new limit should be. The lawyer thought Congress would cut the limit from $3M(?) to around $1M or so. This would have hit Mom's estate hard if she died since she had well over $1M. The lawyer recommended Mom start giving maximal tax free gifts to her children and grandchildren to quickly reduce the size of her estate. Brother and Sister were absolutely euphoric about the recommendation.

But instead of reducing the estate tax limit, as the lawyer had anticipated, Congress increased it instead. The new high limit eliminated the high tax threat from Mom's estate. There was no longer any need to reduce Mom's assets to avoid estate taxes. But you can probably guess what happened to the large gifts that the lawyer initiated. They have continued unabated ever since.

No doubt the large gifts have taken a huge chunk out of Mom's assets over the years. It probably explains why Sister quit sharing Mom's account balance with me. It also likely explains why Brother is not complaining. He's got 3 kids.

Dad is probably rolling over in his grave. I'm sure he intended his 3 children to inherit equally, and not after his estate was diminished by large gifts to grands. Mom, on the other hand, is totally passive about financial matters. She'd go along with just about anything to keep the peace. And Brother and Sister would not have allowed any peace if Mom stopped the large gifts. I complained loudly after the estate tax limits changed, but was simply outnumbered. So the grand kids went from getting maybe $100 Christmas gifts to getting $10k instead, all at the mistaken recommendation of an estate lawyer. Pretty sweet huh?

WOW... even worse....


But, that was a very stupid move by the lawyer... there could have been a trust set up that gave the kids and grand kids the right to take out their money right away, but they could have signed a paper saying they would not... we did that with my mom with 6 kids, 4 spouses and 6 grand kids totaling $160,000 that was moved out of her estate... the money is still in the trust almost 30 years later in case my mom needs it... no draining of assets needed for support... we only did it once.... but, you could have done it each year if you had wanted...


I would agree that the people do not want to get off the largess, but that is not the best thing for you mom...

I will assume 5 kids (I think you said your sis had 2)... so 10 years X 5 grand kids X $10,000 is half a million to THEM... yes, I would bet that mom's estate is MUCH lower than you think it is...