Space - The Final Frontier

[Chuckanut]

I have watched several videos by Tim Dodd (the geeky Everyday Astronaut) where he tours the Starship plant with Elon Musk. At one point I heard Mr. Musk say he expects several of the first starships to blow-up (hopefully without taking out the launch pad which is far more expensive than the ship). He considers pushing things to the breaking point to be a normal part of the testing and development process. That makes sense to me, but I am not an engineer. That's one advantage of testing unmanned spacecraft.

The links to the three videos are below. They are not well done. There is plenty of noise as the tour is done in a working [-]factory[/-] build site. At times it's hard to follow, especially since Mr. Musk is not a great public speaker. He'll say one thing, then contradict himself and go in another direction. It's like his mind is going through the various alternatives as he talks. They are a bit hard to watch and follow.

At one point I think he mentions that first stage will not have very beefy landing legs. Instead a grabber arm from the launch assembly will grab it on touchdown and hold it securely. I am finding that a bit hard to imagine.

Between the problem plagued Starliner and the so-called Starship it looks like we are in for some 'interesting' times in regards to manned spaceflight.

 

[rocketjockey]

Perhaps, my mind needs to change.

I just read that 13 valves in the propulsion system did not open as expected during the countdown. The engineers have been able to get 7 of the 13 to open, but the other six are still not working properly. Also, according to reports they don't know why the valves did not open when commanded to due so before launch.

So far it's all a big mystery, but that may simply be Boeing being careful with what they say. They already have plenty of egg on their face. 13 valve failures at one time? That does not sound good. Perhaps the number of failures will make the fault easier to find?

Not a fan of Starliner, BUT...sticky valves in the rocket business are quite common. Any number of SpaceX launches (and everyone else as well) have been scrubbed due to this issue. It will take a few cycles of fiddling with them to get it sorted out. Part of the normal demo launch teething problems... (source: Me, having smacked/witness being smacked/cussed a rocket or launch pad valve many times)

 

[natetheb]

They never had any incentive to innovate.

I believe this issue is systemic far deeper than most are willing to admit. My full-time job is within the space industry, and there is little incentive to be innovative. I believe this is a systemic problem all the way to the top (i.e. NASA). Many at NASA had significant doubts of SpaceX and believed they would never land the Falcon 9...yet NASA has not produced anything of note since the completion of the ISS. I personally believe that is because NASA is afraid of innovation. Time and time again, NASA has shown it would rather go with "flight heritage" or take the most "risk-adverse" approach instead of pushing innovation. Contractors know this and are willing to deliver what the customer wants, a "new" piece hardware utilizing the most risk-adverse methods and greatest flight heritage hardware possible.

The blame of SLS (or JWST for that matter) delays and cost overruns doesn't fully lay on the contractor, NASA is nearly equally at fault. NASA is a bureaucratic mess like all government agencies. The constant delays and cost overruns are just the obvious failures of NASA. NASA is slowly dwindling from the inside out, and if it does not begin to push innovation and question "risk-adverse methods" it will become just a money purse like all of the other government agencies.

 

[Koogie]

I personally believe that is because NASA is afraid of innovation. Time and time again, NASA has shown it would rather go with "flight heritage" or take the most "risk-adverse" approach instead of pushing innovation. Contractors know this and are willing to deliver what the customer wants, a "new" piece hardware utilizing the most risk-adverse methods and greatest flight heritage hardware possible.

The blame of SLS (or JWST for that matter) delays and cost overruns doesn't fully lay on the contractor, NASA is nearly equally at fault. NASA is a bureaucratic mess like all government agencies. The constant delays and cost overruns are just the obvious failures of NASA. NASA is slowly dwindling from the inside out, and if it does not begin to push innovation and question "risk-adverse methods" it will become just a money purse like all of the other government agencies.

Ex administrator Bridenstine more or less admits that half way through this interview.....

 

[Chuckanut]

Not a fan of Starliner, BUT...sticky valves in the rocket business are quite common. Any number of SpaceX launches (and everyone else as well) have been scrubbed due to this issue. It will take a few cycles of fiddling with them to get it sorted out. Part of the normal demo launch teething problems... (source: Me, having smacked/witness being smacked/cussed a rocket or launch pad valve many times)

Thanks for our perspective.

I hope Boeing does well with Starliner. Having two ways to get humans into LEO is the whole point of these projects.

 

[Gumby]

Perhaps, my mind needs to change.

I just read that 13 valves in the propulsion system did not open as expected during the countdown. The engineers have been able to get 7 of the 13 to open, but the other six are still not working properly. Also, according to reports they don't know why the valves did not open when commanded to due so before launch.

So far it's all a big mystery, but that may simply be Boeing being careful with what they say. They already have plenty of egg on their face. 13 valve failures at one time? That does not sound good. Perhaps the number of failures will make the fault easier to find?

Appears to be moisture infiltration, and the repairs will take months. https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-astronaut-capsule-grounded-months-201317905.html

 

[REWahoo]

Appears to be moisture infiltration, and the repairs will take months. https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-astronaut-capsule-grounded-months-201317905.html

A shame they didn't think to spray on a coat of Flex Seal.

 

[ls99]

Appears to be moisture infiltration, and the repairs will take months. https://www.yahoo.com/news/boeing-astronaut-capsule-grounded-months-201317905.html

What happaned to WD40? Did they not invent the stuff?

 

[mpeirce]

Thanks for our perspective.

I hope Boeing does well with Starliner. Having two ways to get humans into LEO is the whole point of these projects.

Two ways for the US to get into space. The Russians and Chinese are doing so as well.

 

[Freedom56]

Thanks for our perspective.

I hope Boeing does well with Starliner. Having two ways to get humans into LEO is the whole point of these projects.

I believe Boeing just dodged a bullet thanks to the Russians. Had they launched with the propulsion valve failures, it would have meant the possible end of the Starliner program. The issue at hand is that Boeing is used to operating in the cost-plus contract world where failures are rewarded. However, with Spacex succeeding they will have to eat the cost overruns until they decide to default and cut their losses.

 

[Chuckanut]

Two ways for the US to get into space. The Russians and Chinese are doing so as well.

Very true. They are for now. My main concern is that we should not be dependent on authoritarian regimes to get our astronauts into LEO and beyond.

 

[Chuckanut]

This is truly one of the oddest launch failures I have ever seen.
A sideways launch. Interesting.

If you have a twitter account here's a view from the opposite side.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1431812555324854272

 

[ejman]

This is truly one of the oddest launch failures I have ever seen.
A sideways launch. Interesting.

If you have a twitter account here's a view from the opposite side.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1431812555324854272

Wow, amazing the rocket was able to straighten up after that sideways wobble. I wonder how that was accomplished.

 

[stepford]

Wow, amazing the rocket was able to straighten up after that sideways wobble. I wonder how that was accomplished.

I thought they usually gimbal the rocket nozzles around to keep the rocket straight initially on launch before aerodynamic stability takes hold. What's really interesting to me here is that only 1 of the 5 engines failed, and the other 4 - just barely - had enough thrust to keep the rocket aloft.

Regardless, I always love seeing videos of launches from the Pacific Spaceport. It brings back memories of a trip DW and I took to Kodiak several years ago. We were just driving to a desolate place called Fossil Beach and knew nothing about the rocket test facility. Finding a seemingly abandoned mini Cape Canaveral by the side of the road was a very cool surprise.

 

[Chuckanut]

Wow, amazing the rocket was able to straighten up after that sideways wobble. I wonder how that was accomplished.

For a few minutes I thought Musk was experimenting with a new way to launch and land rockets!

 

[braumeister]

Regardless, I always love seeing videos of launches from the Pacific Spaceport. It brings back memories of a trip DW and I took to Kodiak several years ago. We were just driving to a desolate place called Fossil Beach and knew nothing about the rocket test facility. Finding a seemingly abandoned mini Cape Canaveral by the side of the road was a very cool surprise.

It's easy to be taken by surprise. Many years ago I spent a couple of months at Vandenberg AFB in California, which is another major space facility. I didn't realize that they typically launched the classified missions in the middle of the night with no advance notice. Almost shook me out of my bed and I honestly thought there was an earthquake happening!

 

[tulak]

SpaceX Inspiration launch in a few hours. You can watch on SpaceX’s website: www.spacex.com

Looks good so far.

 

[tulak]

Another successful launch. It was inspirational and fun to watch.

Great to watch the progress that SpaceX has made. Definitely in their own league at this point. Let’s hope others catch-up eventually.

 

[Christine]

It was incredible to watch! It's the middle of the night here over in Europe but I just had to stay up for this. Very inspiring.

 

[audreyh1]

OK - it took me a while to figure out it was a group of non-professional astronauts going into high space orbit. Always planned, but also blows away Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic.

I had assumed it was another International Space Station crew transfer.

 

[ERD50]

Is there video of the 1st stage re-entry and landing? They reported it on the main feed, but I have not found video.


-ERD50

 

[tulak]

I guess I should have mentioned more details about the mission. This is SpaceX sending up four civilians to orbit earth for 3 days before returning. They’re orbiting a bit higher than ISS. Another first from SpaceX.

I watched the live feed and they showed the 1st stage reentry from the rocket, but then the video broke up and the signal dropped off. They said the 1st stage landed, but I didn’t seen any video of the landed 1st stage. Not sure why, since usually they show the landed rocket from the platform. Hopefully it made it down ok.

 

[audreyh1]

Is there video of the 1st stage re-entry and landing? They reported it on the main feed, but I have not found video.


-ERD50

The last 20 mins or so of this I think includes liftoff and first stage separation and re-entry.

 

[Gumby]

At 4:26:50 into the video (T+9:20 on the mission clock), you can see the 1st stage apparently landing on the drone ship.

 

[ERD50]

The last 20 mins or so of this I think includes liftoff and first stage separation and re-entry.

At 4:26:50 into the video (T+9:20 on the mission clock), you can see the 1st stage apparently landing on the drone ship.

Thanks. I guess that's it - I was looking for a view from a nearby ship or drone, so I could see it as if I were an observer, instead of the view from the stage itself. Those were impressive videos. This view doesn't give much sense of that, though I'm sure it is important to the staff there.

-ERD50