Suspending Sales? Wow!

[lets-retire]

I don't know, but I'm asking and "observing." With all of this fly by wire controls on modern cars what is the likelihood that the controls, like service brakes, gearshift, and ignition (for the most part) are fly by wire also? Isn't the E-brake required to be mechanical? I thought I had read somewhere that it was required that the brakes have enough power to stop a vehicle in case a runaway condition occurred. If the all of the systems are computer controlled and the computer "malfunctions" causing sudden acceleration, then it would make sense that the other systems might not function as designed, which is a good reason to have mechanical backup. The only way that can malfunction is to be physically broke.

 

[Texas Proud]

To be a tad more accurate:

The prof shorted the two independent pedal position sensor's outputs together. No error code. Then he connected these two shorted sensors' outputs to one of the independent power supplies for the sensors. Still no error code, but the throttle instantly opened fully, allowing maximum engine speed. Still no error code. The prof found this repeatable and on several different Toyota models.

Based on the prof's info, clearly Toyota missed some error trapping opportunities.

It is now up to Toyota to show why no error code, and if this condition can happen in real life, without some professor probing around.

Food for thought.

And as the old Ginzu knife commercial said, there is more.

Thanks for the accuracy.... I had watched it on TV and did not know what he shorted...

I bet it does not give a code since the system probably believes that the person has floored the pedal and WANTS to go fast...

 

[Texas Proud]

..... I thought I had read somewhere that it was required that the brakes have enough power to stop a vehicle in case a runaway condition occurred. .....

I have never heard this as a requirement... and I know that the one on my Acura would not stop the car if the transmission was engaged and at full power....

My old Firebird had enough torque that you could have the brakes fully depressed and it could still spin the wheels... it was an interesting way to smoke the tires... if you were stopped, the front brakes would hold the car still enough to get the back tires smoking... release the brakes and shoot off like a rocket.... since the emergency brakes were connected to the back wheels... it would not stop the car at all.....

 

[travelover]

I don't know, but I'm asking and "observing." With all of this fly by wire controls on modern cars what is the likelihood that the controls, like service brakes, gearshift, and ignition (for the most part) are fly by wire also? Isn't the E-brake required to be mechanical? I thought I had read somewhere that it was required that the brakes have enough power to stop a vehicle in case a runaway condition occurred. If the all of the systems are computer controlled and the computer "malfunctions" causing sudden acceleration, then it would make sense that the other systems might not function as designed, which is a good reason to have mechanical backup. The only way that can malfunction is to be physically broke.

On my Escape hybrid, the braking system is controlled by a computer. When you wish to stop, the computer tells the generator to engage and take power from the wheels using input from an accelerometer to vary the level of "braking". If you want to stop even faster, the actual friction brakes are brought into play until it is just friction brakes as you come to a complete stop. There are safeguards that allow you to depend on the friction brakes if there is a computer failure. How fail safe this is, I don't know though I've heard of no problems even with hundreds of thousands per vehicle of taxicab service fleet miles.

 

[easysurfer]

I have to wonder that, too. All modern cars are so computerized; it's scary.

With all the troubles, I just hope they don't use more computerizinig to overcompensate on future cares. I can see it now, A "Windows Vista like" gas pedal. (Do you want to accelerate? Are you sure you want to accelerate? Are you really sure?)

I admit, I'm exaggerating a bit, but too much computerization in cars leads to much confusion. Yes, it is scary.

I remember one time this was years ago (about 20 years ago) I was stopped by this older gentleman who had a brand new cadillac and said, "Can you do me a favor? Can you start my car for me? My wife bought this new car and it's too new and complicated, I can't start it."

 

[growing_older]

Any truth to the rumor that things are so bad at Toyota, that the 1959 Toyopet is being recalled for unintended acceleration

I am very leery of computerized controls and I think Toyota was both sloppy and dishonest in their handling of safety issues. But I cannot tell if they are any more so than the other companies. Stonewalling on the electronic failures may not get them in as much hotwater as it should, but allegations of withholding documents could really hurt them if they turn out to be true. Personally I'd like to see people in jail if they are found to have bribed regulators with lucrative job offers to ignore safety problems. That's evil.

My first thought about the (joke) recall of the 1959 model was what a great public relations idea. So many Toyotas are still on the road that they have to recall a 50 year old model. Now those are reliable cars.

 

[Orchidflower]

With the news now of a class action lawsuits and a possible cover up, one wonders how far Toytoa as a company will fall.


I've been wondering the exact same thing myself. Good thing I plan to keep my Toyota until it falls apart. It's an '02, but, because I haven't driven much the last 6 years, it has only 65K miles on it. Hoping I can get something close to another 150K or more out of it.

Toyota is running some really affective/effective tv ads now. Common workers saying how they are just like everyone else and all their families drive Toyotas, so this is just a glitch in the system and they will solve it, etc. etc. etc. I believe they will solve it, but how much damage to the company will stick to it....and for how many years? This should be interesting.

 

[lets-retire]

With all the troubles, I just hope they don't use more computerizinig to overcompensate on future cares. I can see it now, A "Windows Vista like" gas pedal. (Do you want to accelerate? Are you sure you want to accelerate? Are you really sure?)

I've thought cars have been over controlled by too many computers for many years. Most of the "advancements" in cars I think have been a response to the poor driving ability by the population. If you think about it, most people drive to and from work, maybe to the mall and the grocery store, and maybe to some form of entertainment on the weekend. Generally most people drive in the same type of conditions all the time, so when they are faced with emergency situations or something out of the ordinary they are unable to react quickly enough or in the correct manner. I'm not knocking most drivers. It is just a simple fact that most people are not good drivers, simply because they don't have the time to practice the skills to make them good drivers. Most people took some type of drivers ed when they were teens, then maybe a defensive driver course when they were a bit older, but that is the extent of their training.

 

[Elderdude]

Turns Out My Dealer Has A Few Internal Communication Problems

Today I took my 2007 Toyota Tacoma into the dealer for the "sticky accelerator" replacement set up by their service appointment gal. But the service guy says I don't have a problem, no Toyota Tacoma has had this problem. Two guys, the service manager and the service technician said if I had just logged onto the internet and plugged in my VIN, I would have known this. The assumption on their part was that all their customers should be internet saavy. They also assumed that all owners had heard about, or read about the problem, so they have never bothered to directly communicate by phone, email or mail, about the still unresolved floor mat problem. (No, they were weren't expecting a soluction any time soon, and yes I still should leave it off.) No apology for wasting my time, today, or the misinformation given to me by their own staff. "Go away, punk, we are tired of pissy customers."

 

[SarahW]

 

[Zathras]

Today I took my 2007 Toyota Tacoma into the dealer for the "sticky accelerator" replacement set up by their service appointment gal. But the service guy says I don't have a problem, no Toyota Tacoma has had this problem. Two guys, the service manager and the service technician said if I had just logged onto the internet and plugged in my VIN, I would have known this. The assumption on their part was that all their customers should be internet saavy. They also assumed that all owners had heard about, or read about the problem, so they have never bothered to directly communicate by phone, email or mail, about the still unresolved floor mat problem. (No, they were weren't expecting a soluction any time soon, and yes I still should leave it off.) No apology for wasting my time, today, or the misinformation given to me by their own staff. "Go away, punk, we are tired of pissy customers."

To be fair, the service guys are working non stop on this issue.
You received no notice indicating your vehicle has an issue, did no research (since you are posting here I assume you could also check online)?
I do agree that the receptionist should have checked. Did you ask about the floor mats, your Tacoma is listed under that recall.
So YOU wasted your time, not them. No, they failed to catch it, but you made the appointment without receiving any notification other than the media hysteria.

 

[growing_older]

Did I miss part of this. Elderdude has a service appointment set up by his dealer. He brings in the truck. Service guy says his truck isn't listed for recall for THAT problem, gave him a hard time about not doing more internet research, then didn't do anything about the recall that does include his truck. Does not sound like dealer handled it very well.

Toyota service folks may be working hard on fixing things, but TOYOTA is the one responsible for the issues and the recalls (and apparently other issues not yet recalled, but soon to be). Doesn't give them a license to be rude to customers.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Re-reading Elderdude's first post above and then the report of the rude service clearly shows it was the dealer who made the appointment for the wrong problem after ED contacted them about the floormat recall, which his car's VIN was included in.

Not good, Toyota.

 

[ls99]

To be fair, the service guys are working non stop on this issue.
You received no notice indicating your vehicle has an issue, did no research (since you are posting here I assume you could also check online)?
I do agree that the receptionist should have checked. Did you ask about the floor mats, your Tacoma is listed under that recall.
So YOU wasted your time, not them. No, they failed to catch it, but you made the appointment without receiving any notification other than the media hysteria.

Perhaps reading Elderdude's post at post#225 might shed a little different light on the dealer visit.

 

[Zathras]

Perhaps reading Elderdude's post at post#225 might shed a little different light on the dealer visit.

If I made an error and the dealer did send notification, I deeply apologize.
However, from the beggining of what Elderdude posted in #225:

I have been impatiently waiting for my notification from Toyota by mail or email of: first, the recall and second, a notice to bring it in for a fix. Last Wednesday, I tried to make an appointment on line with my dealer requesting a fix for the recall...

The only thing here I see is that he was impatiently awaiting the notice, and then tried to make the appointment.
I get the impression that he tried to make the appointment without getting a notice.
Then, there appears to be a screw up on the dealer's part, when they called him and asked him when he wanted to bring it in for the "sticky accelerator issue". If he had the 'floormat issue' he should have told them on the phone that he was calling about the floormat issue, not the sticky accelerator issue.

Granted, the dealer could have handled this better, and should have made should not have made the error. But Elderdude was told what they were looking at ON THE PHONE before he ever went to the dealer.

So while, imo, the dealer is not without fault, neither is elderdude.

 

[Elderdude]

Perhaps I didn't make my self clear on this board.

Zathras flamed, "The only thing here I see is that he was impatiently awaiting the notice, and then tried to make the appointment." (See my first post #136.) Toyota has notified NTSA and it is on their website, that the Tacoma floor mat can cause unintended acceleration.

Hell, yes, I was trying to get some kind of a response from my dealer when I sent them an email, (requiring a model, year, and VIN number,) requesting simply a "recall repair." I have never gotten one email, phone call, letter or postcard from my dealer or Toyota concerning any recall of the Toyota Tacoma. (It can kill you, but our company can't communicate with you directly.) I found out through, first my newspaper, then through an internet search, and finally when the thing got big enough to attract the attention of television news.

Since I never personally received a first notice, I wondered if, when Toyota did find a fix, I would even get a letter telling me to come in. I have been trying to understand the cryptic notice on the Toyota.Com website. It hasn't changed since I looked it up 4 months ago. I did try to verify what was being done with the phone gal setting up the service appointment. I did tell her that I had looked up my VIN number and hadn't seen anything about a sticky accelerator for my Tacoma, just the floor mat issue. But she said that she had looked my VIN number up and that my Toyota was definitely one of the vehicles due for an accelerator repair.

I am ticked that no one ever contacted me personally about the recall. I am ticked that they made a mistake in scheduling the appointment and didn't even apologize for it. And I am ticked at getting jumped on by a fellow poster. There are other dealers in my general vicinity I will use in the future.

 

[Zathras]

Zathras flamed,

No flame was intended, you sounded impatient, and reiterated that here.

...Hell, yes, I was trying to get some kind of a response from my dealer when I sent them an email, (requiring a model, year, and VIN number,) requesting simply a "recall repair." I have never gotten one email, phone call, letter or postcard from my dealer or Toyota concerning any recall of the Toyota Tacoma. (It can kill you, but our company can't communicate with you directly.) I found out through, first my newspaper, then through an internet search, and finally when the thing got big enough to attract the attention of television news.

Since I never personally received a first notice, I wondered if, when Toyota did find a fix, I would even get a letter telling me to come in. I have been trying to understand the cryptic notice on the Toyota.Com website. It hasn't changed since I looked it up 4 months ago. I did try to verify what was being done with the phone gal setting up the service appointment. I did tell her that I had looked up my VIN number and hadn't seen anything about a sticky accelerator for my Tacoma, just the floor mat issue. But she said that she had looked my VIN number up and that my Toyota was definitely one of the vehicles due for an accelerator repair.

Sounds like you did everything, and then some, that any reasonable person would do. I do appologize, from your earlier comment it didn't sound like you had or that you got the instructions you did from the receptionist.
I would raise holy hell as well, and if you had not already, talk with the GM of the dealership to let him know why I would be going to a different dealership.

I am ticked that no one ever contacted me personally about the recall. I am ticked that they made a mistake in scheduling the appointment and didn't even apologize for it. And I am ticked at getting jumped on by a fellow poster. There are other dealers in my general vicinity I will use in the future.

I would be as well. We have two Prius. We did receive both email and mail notices about the floor mat recall for each of our cars.
I appologize again for jumping to the wrong conclusion, I should have asked if you asked the receptionists about her setting up an appointment for the 'sticky accelerator issue'.

I hope you have much better service from your new dealer

 

[Elderdude]

Apology accepted and appreciated.

I was wondering if I was alone in not receiving a notice. Sounds like Zathras had better luck than I did. I have liked both of my trucks. I believe most of the problems Toyata is having now are caused by deaf ears at the top, both at the corporate level and at my dealerships. They will suffer in sales and customer loyalty.

 

[W2R]

Apology accepted and appreciated.

I was wondering if I was alone in not receiving a notice. Sounds like Zathras had better luck than I did. I have liked both of my trucks. I believe most of the problems Toyata is having now are caused by deaf ears at the top, both at the corporate level and at my dealerships. They will suffer in sales and customer loyalty.

Don't know if this will help in knowing who has and has not received notices, but thought I'd post it just in case it is helpful to someone.

Newsroom : Customer FAQs Regarding the Sticking Accelerator Pedal and Floor Mat Pedal Entrapment Recalls / Toyota 3

What vehicles has Toyota begun notification on for the floor mat recall?
Toyota has begun issuing notification for the Lexus division involved models – ES350 and IS250 and IS350, and the Toyota Camry and Avalon. The recall remedies for other involved vehicles will be rolled out through 2010.

There's a lot more interesting information there about what to do, and so on.

 

[Moemg]

If it is just a floor mat problem why are they reconfiguring the accelerator pedal ?

 

[Elderdude]

Perhaps unless Toyota corporate has a solution, as in cast of the Prius, they don't want to alarm their customers with a direct recall notice? My experience anyway. I talked on the phone with the service manager at my dealership, prior to my latest appointment flareup, who said not sending out actual notices was a corporate decision. Nothing the dealership could do about it from their end.

 

[samclem]

Well, looks like the government has decided that it will be mandatory for all new cars to automatically go to idle when the brakes are applied. This is undoubtedly a good design feature, but won't be without cost. There will be at least some increase in crashes when cars unexpectedly and suddenly lose power due to false indications that the brake has been applied, and at the very least it will add another failure mode/thing to check when a car isn't responding properly to throttle inputs.
Sure, the issue is worth resolving, but what has been the opportunity cost? In cold, hard economics--there have been a tragic handful of lives lost in Toyota crashes blamed on possible stuck accelerators (regardless of reason--mats, sticky pedals, possibly software). If Congress had spent their time implementing incremental improvements to our health care system, or on any of a hundred other more important issues, how many lives would we have saved/lengthened/improved? OTOH, every minute they spend in imperious grilling of Toyota execs is one less minute spent in more damaging Congressional hobbies, so maybe this is yet another public service for which we should be applauding Toyota.

Hopefully the government will come out with a mandated fix for cars equipped with carburetors. Somehow we survived all these years depending on nothing more than a spring to counter a sticky throttle cable.

 

[travelover]

Ultimately all cars will have their programming updated periodically via WiFi. So if you get in and turn the key, don't be surprised to get a message - "Please wait - updating"

 

[growing_older]

Toyota's assembled experts said the professor's experiments could not be recreated on the actual road. For example, they said, Gilbert had shaved away insulation on wiring and connected wires that would not normally touch each other.
"There is no evidence that I've seen to indicate that this situation is happening at all in the real world," Gerdes said. He added that the professor's work "could result in misguided policy and unwarranted fear."
To prove their point, Toyota officials revved the engines of cars made by competitors, including a Subaru Forester and a Ford Fusion, by connecting a circuit rigged up to the wiring of the gas pedals.

Wow, just read about Toyota's "debunk" of the electronics problem. A guy found a certain combination of shorts that cause the engine to rev full throttle with no errors on the car's computer. Toyota hired the company that "proved" second hand smoke isn't harmful for the tobacco companies and refuted his experiment.

Among their claims: It never happens in the real world that wires lose their insulation and short. It never happens that wires located a distance from each other can short together. Since cars sometimes use the metal of the frame to complete circuits, I can only say I am flabbergasted by their assertion that out of millions of vehicles this can NEVER happen.

They also tried to show it's not just a Toyota problem by connecting a circuit of their own design to other companies cars and making the engines run. HELLO?? Connecting a circuit is a lot different from a short where a wire might wear the insulation off and touch a piece of metal.

I am left with an impression that they are turning on the PR machine to try to fix this mess, but that it will be impossible to believe anything they say. This debunking exercise was a big lie from start to finish. What a shame that a company that worked so hard for so many years to improve quality and make excellent products cannot understand that this is not a problem they can obfuscate their way out of. I feel sorry for Toyota workers who have done everything so well for so many years but are going to get tainted by the executives' attempt to pretend there is no problem.

 

[ERD50]

bold mine...

Wow, just read about Toyota's "debunk" of the electronics problem. ....

They also tried to show it's not just a Toyota problem by connecting a circuit of their own design to other companies cars and making the engines run. HELLO?? Connecting a circuit is a lot different from a short where a wire might wear the insulation off and touch a piece of metal.

I would need to see that in context, and also know if the journalist was precise in wording.

Technically (and in practical, daily usage), a 'circuit' only requires a power source, a conductor, and a load. In the case where you short a wire directly across a battery, the conductor *is* the load. So this doesn't necessarily imply that they hooked up a computer board or something - a jumper wire to simulate a short would qualify as a 'circuit' in this case. Maybe they determined the point in the circuit where the short was required, and that got worded to make it sound like more than it was? Very hard to say with a journalist in the loop. But if Toyota is saying this could happen in another car if you design a circuit board to certain specs and somehow magically get it connected to the right (wrong?) wires in your car, then they are stretching it beyond all credibility. If that is the case, they are really gonna go down the tubes.

Well, looks like the government has decided that it will be mandatory for all new cars to automatically go to idle when the brakes are applied. This is undoubtedly a good design feature, ...

I'm disappointed that this just wasn't a basic industry standard, w/o any intervention from any govt body. It is how cruise controls work, so it isn't even a new idea. And while going to idle could be an occasional fault, it is preferable to unintended acceleration (at least in my book!). We often hear how sue-happy this country is - I am amazed that companies don't protect themselves in what seems like a pretty obvious way.

-ERD50