The Electric Vehicle Thread

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But that is the exact definition of a Level 4 self-driving car.



Level 4 is also what Waymo has been working on, as well as all other robot taxi projects.

On the other hand, Musk threatened to remove the steering wheel and brake pedal "real soon now", back a few years ago. :)

Like I said, a true consumer FSD car would have to be L5 in my book. No limitations, and that ain't gonna happen in the next few years.
 
A discussion about SDC (Self driving car) does not belong here on an EV thread, because a system can be installed on an ICE car, as has been done in many experimental cars as well as production cars. But since it is brought up, I might as well share some info here.

Yes, a true Level 5 SDC is many years away. I have been following this technology with much interest, and anyone, I don't care who he is, who says he has it is just blowing smoke.

Now, a Level 4 SDC can still be very useful. Of course, even a Level 2 like many cars out there including Teslas, can be useful. Else, how would the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) bother to define these levels? The main thing the public must know, and the makers to adhere to, is the difference between various automation levels, and the responsibility of the driver in each level.

A Level 4 robotaxi which is geofenced to work only in the city is of course useful. In bad weather, heavy rain/snow/fog, icy road conditions, etc..., the robotaxi operation can be suspended. The AI software must know when it cannot handle a certain condition and stop the car to wait for human assistance. That's what Waymo has been doing. The car calls for help. They send a human driver out to the taxi to drive it out of a tough spot, because they cannot allow the passenger to drive. If it is a personal car, the owner/driver will be woken up if he is sleeping to take over.

A Level 4 car can certainly operate outside of the cities but still has similar limitations as above. With a Level 4 car, the driver can go to sleep. The car will know to stop itself in bad situations and wait for human assistance.

With a Level 3 car, the driver is allowed to read a book, send text messages on his phone, play a computer game. He has to be in the driver seat, and cannot go to sleep.

With a Level 2 car, the driver is not allowed to take his eyes off the road. His hands cannot be off the steering wheel for too long. The driver must stay attentive at all times, and to override as necessary.

Tesla FSD (full self driving) is only Level 2, even with the most advanced beta version. Full self driving here means the car will attempt to drive unless intervened by the driver. Other makers usually put operation limitations on the system, as a safeguard against ignorant drivers who abuse the car.

Mercedes and perhaps other makers will be selling Level 3 cars, but my impression was that this operation (eyes off the road) will be allowed only on highways and freeways. And they plan to have Level 4 (sleeping allowed), but again only on highways and freeways.

Nobody talks about cars without steering wheels and pedals anymore. They used to, a few years ago, but have learned how hard it really is.
 
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Thanks for all the defs, but you could've just linked to any of a number of pages about FSD levels.

FSD will primarily be EV, as you know, and with Tesla being the main 'booster ahead of the tech' the discussion is just as appropriate here as anywhere else.
 
it's been interesting reading this thread... i haven't pulled trigger on EV, back in 2019 i picked up a Honda Accord Hybrid. i was facing a looong commute of some 75 miles each way in heavy traffic. managed to get 55-60mpg consistently in all but sub 20 degree weather. i was happy with that for such a big car. now that i WFH it just sits around... only good news is that in my state the car comes with a 10yr/150K mile warranty for battery and everything else related to electric drive train.

when i replace our 18 y/o Odyssey minivan... that seems to want to run forever...im going full EV...;)
 
it's been interesting reading this thread... i haven't pulled trigger on EV, back in 2019 i picked up a Honda Accord Hybrid. i was facing a looong commute of some 75 miles each way in heavy traffic. managed to get 55-60mpg consistently in all but sub 20 degree weather. i was happy with that for such a big car. now that i WFH it just sits around... only good news is that in my state the car comes with a 10yr/150K mile warranty for battery and everything else related to electric drive train.

when i replace our 18 y/o Odyssey minivan... that seems to want to run forever...im going full EV...;)
Better plan ahead. I wanted to buy a Tesla Model Y in October, but the waiting list was out to June or Oct 2022 then depending on exact model. Even today it’s Mar or July 2022. For the near future there aren’t any new EVs in know of, Tesla or otherwise, that you can get without a considerable wait. Between demand (Tesla) and acute limited production (Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia all others ), there’re scarce and expensive. Presumably the Austin and Berlin startups will increase supply of Tesla Model 3/Y in 2022.
 
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i should have runway.

the '04 Odyssey's don't seem to die.. i see tons of them on the road and expect to get another 3-5 years easily. i only have 165K miles on it. just getting warmed up...but buys me time for things to get sorted out on the EV front as im looking forward to that!


Better plan ahead. I wanted to buy a Tesla Model Y in October, but the waiting list was out to June or Oct 2022 then depending on exact model. Even today it’s Mar or July 2022. For the near future there aren’t any new EVs in know of, Tesla or otherwise, that you can get without a considerable wait. Between demand (Tesla) and acute limited production (Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia all others ), there’re scarce and expensive. Presumably the Austin and Berlin startups will increase supply of Tesla Model 3/Y in 2022.
 
Better plan ahead. I wanted to buy a Tesla Model Y in October, but the waiting list was out to June or Oct 2022 then depending on exact model. Even today it’s Mar or July 2022. For the near future there aren’t any new EVs in know of, Tesla or otherwise, that you can get without a considerable wait. Between demand (Tesla) and acute limited production (Ford, GM, Hyundai/Kia all others ), there’re scarce and expensive. Presumably the Austin and Berlin startups will increase supply of Tesla Model 3/Y in 2022.
My local Kia dealers all have Nero EVs on the lot. I test drove one last week...it was fine, but the infotainment system had these really annoying wireframe icons instead of realistic looking phone/music/map symbols. I might wait until the Subaru Solterra comes out, as I kept finding the Nero wanting in comparison to our Outback.
 
My local Kia dealers all have Nero EVs on the lot. I test drove one last week...it was fine, but the infotainment system had these really annoying wireframe icons instead of realistic looking phone/music/map symbols. I might wait until the Subaru Solterra comes out, as I kept finding the Nero wanting in comparison to our Outback.
So Subaru is rolling out another rebranded Toyota (bZ4x).
The web of ownership of auto manufacturers is a complex one. Therefore, suffice it to say, Toyota owns 20% of Subaru. Then, in September 2019, Subaru and Toyota renegotiated their business and capital alliance. Additionally, the new deal is built around the slogan: “Let’s make ever-better cars together.”

According to Toyota, its engineers designed an all-new EV chassis. Thus, it is called the Electric Toyota Next Generation Architecture (e-TNGA). In addition, Toyota admits that Subaru engineers had input on the AWD system used in the new architecture.

Subaru claims that the two companies developed a new chassis together, “while engaging in a friendly rivalry.” Regardless of how it was developed, the resulting 2023 Solterra will be built by Toyota, at Toyota’s Japanese factory.

The 2023 Subaru Solterra is not the only vehicle built on the new e-TNGA chassis. The 2022 Toyota bZ4X is mechanically identical to the Solterra.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-real-reason-the-2023-subaru-solterra-is-built-in-a-toyota-factory/
 
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For those waiting for the Tesla pickup...later now

https://www.reuters.com/technology/...tion-cybertruck-early-2023-source-2022-01-13/

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 13 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) aims to start initial production of its much-anticipated Cybertruck by the end of the first quarter of 2023, pushing back its plan to begin production late this year, a person familiar with the matter told Reuters on Thursday.

The person said the delay comes as Tesla is changing features and functions of the electric pickup to make a compelling product as competition heats up in the segment.

CEO Elon Musk, who unveiled the futuristic vehicle in 2019, had already delayed its production from late 2021 to late 2022.

Musk has said he will provide an updated product road map on Tesla's Jan. 26 earnings call.
 

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Yikes! About 3 to 5 times what I pay for full coverage on a 2021 SUV in a high cost area (Houston, TX).

Six to ten times what I pay on my SUV, and I think Chicago Suburbs are probably fairly high rates as well.

Of course, I'm in the < 6,000 annual miles group, senior group, good driving record group. And, my SUV probably wouldn't do zero to 60 in under 3 seconds even if you dropped it from a helicopter (too much air resistance?). I guess I should do the math on the theoretical 32 ft per second per second, but I'm not.

I'm thinking those rates are due to the very high cost of repairs I've heard about. A lot of stuff cannot be done by an independent shop, only one source for parts etc. So Tesla owners may like to brag about low maintenance costs (which I think are generally inflated, when compared to real-world experiences of using an independent shop only for what is necessary, compared to a dealer for any/everything the 'recommend'), but that can get blown away many times over with the first fender-bender.

-ERD50
 
If these numbers are accurate the cost to insure a Tesla sure are high, at least compared to what I currently pay.
https://www.valuepenguin.com/tesla-car-insurance


But then the insurance cost may be just as high for other high-priced EVs, such as the Audi E-tron and the Porsche Taycan.

With the high repair cost, I suspect these EVs are totaled after an accident more often than regular cars.
 
Six to ten times what I pay on my SUV, and I think Chicago Suburbs are probably fairly high rates as well.

Of course, I'm in the < 6,000 annual miles group, senior group, good driving record group. And, my SUV probably wouldn't do zero to 60 in under 3 seconds even if you dropped it from a helicopter (too much air resistance?). I guess I should do the math on the theoretical 32 ft per second per second, but I'm not...

Somebody has to do it.

60 mph = 96.6 km/h = 26.8 m/s.

Ignoring air resistance, at 9.8 m/s/s gravity acceleration, you will reach 29.4 m/s after 3 sec, or 66 mph.

I think your SUV would get very close to 60 mph if dropped in free air.
 
Somebody has to do it.

60 mph = 96.6 km/h = 26.8 m/s.

Ignoring air resistance, at 9.8 m/s/s gravity acceleration, you will reach 29.4 m/s after 3 sec, or 66 mph.

I think your SUV would get very close to 60 mph if dropped in free air.

Quit being so lazy NW. Use the average Cd for a big SUV of about 0.4 and give us a real number.

(I'll allow you to assume the SUV falls nose first from the helicopter and somehow maintains that orientation)
 
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Heck, the above is doable, but it takes a bit more work. I will need to estimate the frontal area of a typical SUV, and solve the problem with numerical integration because the drag force varies with the square of speed.

It's easy enough to set up the differential equation, but I suspect it has no closed form solution, hence the numerical method. I will need a bit of financial incentive to do this as it would take more than 10 seconds. Even when retired, I don't do pro bono work, you know?
 
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Heck, the above is doable, but it takes a bit more work. I will need to estimate the frontal area of a typical SUV, and solve the problem with numerical integration because the drag force varies with the square of speed.

It's easy enough to set up the differential equation, but I suspect it has no closed form solution, hence the numerical method. I will need a bit of financial incentive to do this as it would take more than 10 seconds. Even when retired, I don't do pro bono work, you know?

All windows, back hatch and sunroof open will decrease the SUV air resistance.
 
I think it's the opposite isn't it?

Open windows create turbulence which can increase the coefficient of friction?

They say like over 40 MPH, you get better mileage closing the windows and running the AC than going over 40 MPH with windows open.
 
I think it's the opposite isn't it?

Open windows create turbulence which can increase the coefficient of friction?

They say like over 40 MPH, you get better mileage closing the windows and running the AC than going over 40 MPH with windows open.

Heh-heh, look what I started! :)

Heck, the above is doable, but it takes a bit more work. I will need to estimate the frontal area of a typical SUV, and solve the problem with numerical integration because the drag force varies with the square of speed.

It's easy enough to set up the differential equation, but I suspect it has no closed form solution, hence the numerical method. I will need a bit of financial incentive to do this as it would take more than 10 seconds. Even when retired, I don't do pro bono work, you know?

I started thinking about how high the drop would need to be to reach > 60 mph. Too lazy and far too long since I've done that kind of calculation, but I guess a very simple approximation would be roughly 10M + 20M + 30M = 60M, or 196.85 feet (and yes, I did that as a joke, for those who just love it when approximations are used, and then two decimal points are applied to the conversion). Couple hundred feet. Give or take.

Quit being so lazy NW. Use the average Cd for a big SUV of about 0.4 and give us a real number.

(I'll allow you to assume the SUV falls nose first from the helicopter and somehow maintains that orientation)

Or we could go all the way to the punch line of that old Physics joke "But the solution only works for perfectly spherical chickens in a total vacuum".

-ERD50
 

Well, yes. But, Subarus are also Made with Love. Can Toyota claim that? No.

The Subaru Love Promise is our vision to show love and respect to all people at every interaction with Subaru.

And they spread the Love around. Does Toyota do that? No.


So, now we all know the difference. ;)

Carry on.
:popcorn:
 
Toyota and Subaru collaborated on this EV platform.

Honda will be using the Ultium platform from GM.

One of the start ups was considering using MEB platform used by VW, Audi.

KIa and the Ioniq brand are using E-GMP. There was a rumor that Apple wanted to get Hyundai to make the Apple EV car using the E-GMP platform but they couldn't negotiate a deal.
 
I started thinking about how high the drop would need to be to reach > 60 mph...
-ERD50

Neglecting air resistance, it's easy to compute.

We know that velocity v = a * t. And distance is the integral of velocity, so that d = (1/2) * a * t *t.

After 3 seconds with an acceleration of 9.8 m/s/s, the velocity is 3*9.8 = 29.4 m/s, or 65.8 mph.

The drop distance is 1/2 * 9.8 * 3 * 3 = 44.1 m, or 145 ft.

Hmmm... Nobody wants to know the proper answer with the aero drag accounted for badly enough to offer me some money.

OK, fine. Then nobody will know.
 
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