The Electric Vehicle Thread

[explanade]

Well I don't expect to take too much road trips which require more than one charge cycle. For 95% if not more of my driving, the range will be plenty enough.

I will need a car next summer so the timing of this is good for me but there are suppose to be other cars releasing next year as well.

So there should be many more options than now.

 

[eroscott]

VW introduced the ID.4 crossover SUV.
It will start at 39,995 before tax credit. Expected to get 250 miles on a charge with 3 free years of charging on the Electrify America charging network.
...
It won't be as fast as a Tesla or have the long range. But it costs a lot less than the Model Y. ...

Competition is fantastic and is the best thing for the customers. There is more tho: "... expected wave hits the market, including the Ford Mustang Mach-E, the Nissan Ariya, Volvo XC40 Recharge, and two new versions of the Chevy Bolt."

RWD: The ID.4 is currently the 2WD/RWD version AFAIK with the AWD version coming later in 2021. It is 250 miles with 82 kWh battery.

AWD: The current Tesla Model Y base is AWD with the an expected 2WD/RWD coming later. It is only sold in the LR/Long_Range version of 316 mi (4.8s 0-60 mph) with a ~76 kWh battery.

It will be interesting to compare apples to apples AWD to AWD and RWD to RWD.

 

[explanade]

Tesla has a huge lead in optimizing acceleration and range.

I don't know that any of the larger manufacturer will catch up any time soon.

Probably a startup like Lucid will but Tesla will have huge infrastructure advantages -- R&D on battery designs and of course those Giga factories.

The competitors just have to offer range above a certain threshold. For instance, at least 230 miles should be enough for most people, for their commutes and other trips other than long (~4-5 hours or more) road trips.

I think most people would be assured if they can drive to say a big city up to 2 hours away and not worry about being able to make it back home.

They don't need the crazy acceleration that Tesla is touting like the Plaid model they announced which will go 0-60 in under 2 seconds. That's like motorcycle territory if I'm not mistaken.

Even 5-6 seconds for 0-60 used to represent fast sports cars, if not exotic cars priced well over $100k.

 

[braumeister]

Tesla has a huge lead in optimizing acceleration and range.

Another advantage is charging stations. Just anecdotal, but it seems like wherever I travel I see more Tesla chargers than other kinds. They're everywhere and in more convenient places. Very well thought out.

 

[aaronc879]

Tesla has a huge lead in optimizing acceleration and range.

I don't know that any of the larger manufacturer will catch up any time soon.

Probably a startup like Lucid will but Tesla will have huge infrastructure advantages -- R&D on battery designs and of course those Giga factories.

The competitors just have to offer range above a certain threshold. For instance, at least 230 miles should be enough for most people, for their commutes and other trips other than long (~4-5 hours or more) road trips.

I think most people would be assured if they can drive to say a big city up to 2 hours away and not worry about being able to make it back home.

They don't need the crazy acceleration that Tesla is touting like the Plaid model they announced which will go 0-60 in under 2 seconds. That's like motorcycle territory if I'm not mistaken.

Even 5-6 seconds for 0-60 used to represent fast sports cars, if not exotic cars priced well over $100k.

I don't think 230 miles is acceptable for those of us in cold weather climates. The actual range is much less than what's advertised. Even phantom drain from just sitting outside in cold weather is a lot. If I lived in the south I would have already gotten an EV but 'up north' it just doesn't make sense in most cases IMO.

 

[Sunset]

Chargers need to be universal, imagine what a pain it would be if I had to go to a Toyota gas station instead of any gas station.

Once they are universal, then charging choices increase for everyone and resistance to EV's lowers.

I drive across the country or through some States every now and then, if I was just driving around town, I'd always charge at home.

 

[braumeister]

I don't think 230 miles is acceptable for those of us in cold weather climates. The actual range is much less than what's advertised. Even phantom drain from just sitting outside in cold weather is a lot. If I lived in the south I would have already gotten an EV but 'up north' it just doesn't make sense in most cases IMO.

I agree. If I could get a 500 mile range I would definitely buy one, but 300 miles is just cutting it closer than I would be comfortable with.

 

[braumeister]

Chargers need to be universal, imagine what a pain it would be if I had to go to a Toyota gas station instead of any gas station.

Once they are universal, then charging choices increase for everyone and resistance to EV's lowers.

I drive across the country or through some States every now and then, if I was just driving around town, I'd always charge at home.

I have a PHEV and charge almost entirely at home. I only have about 20 miles on battery power, but most of my errands around here fit into that range so I seldom have to buy gas when I'm home.

When I travel, it's actually a treat to find a charging station near where I'm going. Doesn't happen often.

And I definitely agree about the mismatched chargers. I use a J-1772 plug, like probably the majority of EVs, but there are so many plug variations that don't work for me that I always wonder what the manufacturers are thinking.

 

[aaronc879]

I agree. If I could get a 500 mile range I would definitely buy one, but 300 miles is just cutting it closer than I would be comfortable with.

Another thing is the cost savings goes away pretty fast when range drops by 30% in cold weather. Then, when you have to travel away from home you pay twice as much per KWH to go to a Supercharger compared to home charging. After that, it is no longer cheaper to run an EV than an ICE car.

 

[MRG]

Another advantage is charging stations. Just anecdotal, but it seems like wherever I travel I see more Tesla chargers than other kinds. They're everywhere and in more convenient places. Very well thought out.

+[emoji4]

The network is a differentiator. Add in destination chargers and public options and it's not hard to travel long distances to remote places. Tesla has a built in charger awareness with the navigation system. It is pretty easy to get on the network, travel, recharge for free before taking off the next day.

 

[eroscott]

Another thing is the cost savings goes away pretty fast when range drops by 30% in cold weather. Then, when you have to travel away from home you pay twice as much per KWH to go to a Supercharger compared to home charging. After that, it is no longer cheaper to run an EV than an ICE car.

True about the 30%.

If you are roadtripping then the cost to supercharge pales !!! in comparison to lodging and eating. Any diff in running a high mileage GAS car vs large electric car (using more kW) is pretty small or non-existent in my and my kids experience.

 

[eroscott]

+[emoji4]

The network is a differentiator. Add in destination chargers and public options and it's not hard to travel long distances to remote places. Tesla has a built in charger awareness with the navigation system. It is pretty easy to get on the network, travel, recharge for free before taking off the next day.

I use https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ for my initial planning then use the built-in Tesla nav planner when I actually start the roadtrip. It originally was for Teslas but done many electric cars now.

Below Tesla supercharger network map via: https://supercharge.info/map

Blue dots are permitted and construction cone icons mean currently under construction.

 

[explanade]

I agree. If I could get a 500 mile range I would definitely buy one, but 300 miles is just cutting it closer than I would be comfortable with.

Looks like the Census Bureau collects data on commute times, not distance. Based on that, an insurance company came up with the list of cities with the longest commutes, round-trip times in minutes with the top being Palmdale, CA at over 85 minutes, followed by NYC at just over 81 minutes:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/22/the-top-10-us-cities-where-workers-commute-the-longest-.html

But I've seen elsewhere that the average distance each way is about 16 miles.


Though I haven't accounted for cold weather, I think it's clear that most of the BEVs on the market should be able to cover these commutes easily.

In the summer, I would think a 230 mile range per charge would be able to cover most or all of the work week on one charge.

Of course when you factor in typical weekly car trips, you would probably have to recharge once or twice.

 

[explanade]

Chargers need to be universal, imagine what a pain it would be if I had to go to a Toyota gas station instead of any gas station.

Once they are universal, then charging choices increase for everyone and resistance to EV's lowers.

I drive across the country or through some States every now and then, if I was just driving around town, I'd always charge at home.

I think there's standardization going on. Seems to be Tesla vs. everyone else.

But I read somewhere that the EU has 300k chargers and US has less than half that.

BEV sales and penetration will increase over time so that should incentivize growth of the charging network.

Again, as I posted above, for typical commutes and weekly trips, most people shouldn't need to avail themselves of a charger.

But there are gating factors like people who live in apts. without a garage probably wouldn't be early adopters.

Or people may be unwilling to spend a couple thousand to have a 50 amp line and charger installed in their garages.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Looks like the Census Bureau collects data on commute times, not distance. Based on that, an insurance company came up with the list of cities with the longest commutes, round-trip times in minutes with the top being Palmdale, CA at over 85 minutes, followed by NYC at just over 81 minutes:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/22/the-top-10-us-cities-where-workers-commute-the-longest-.html

In NYC, a LOT of people commute via public transportation, especially those with longer trips. When I drove, it was maybe 30 minutes each way, but there were other times that I had train commutes of 80-90 minutes.

 

[Car-Guy]

Another advantage is charging stations. Just anecdotal, but it seems like wherever I travel I see more Tesla chargers than other kinds. They're everywhere and in more convenient places. Very well thought out.

We must drive in different areas..... Although I'll admit they have increased the number of commercial charging stations in my area... A year ago we had two, both about a hour away and in opposite directions. Since then, they added one (that's a 50% increase) and it's only ~45 mins away... The other day I was driving by one of these stations and I actually saw a car parked there. Of course the parking lot was pretty fully so maybe he was just using it as a parking space...

 

[skipro33]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916209659/california-governor-signs-order-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

California will phase out the sale of all gasoline-powered vehicles by 2035 in a bid to lead the U.S. in reducing greenhouse gas emissions by encouraging the state's drivers to switch to electric cars.

Gov. Gavin Newsom signed an executive order Wednesday that amounts to the most aggressive clean-car policy in the United States. Although it bans the sale of new gas cars and trucks after the 15-year deadline, it will still allow such vehicles to be owned and sold on the used-car market.

The number of zero-emission electric vehicles being sold in the state has been on the upswing in recent years, although they accounted for fewer than 8% of all new cars sold in California last year.

 

[Chuckanut]

I may be wrong, but I thought there was an informal network of EV owners who will let other EV owners charge their cars at each other's home. Supposedly, there is an app that supports this network. ?

 

[aaronc879]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916209659/california-governor-signs-order-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

I think i'll buy a car dealership just over the Nevada border in 2034.

 

[Chuckanut]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/9162...er-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

What can be done with the stroke of a pen, can be un-done with the stroke of the next guy's pen.

 

[GTFan]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, there's going to be a LOT of business at CA border dealerships if this actually goes into effect in 15 years.

 

[ERD50]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, there's going to be a LOT of business at CA border dealerships if this actually goes into effect in 15 years.

And how is CA going to fix their black-out problems on their electrical grid in 15 years? Added EV demand just makes it that much tougher.

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916209659/california-governor-signs-order-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

Just because he signed an order like that doesn't make it official (he's not God). It will probably be challenged and eventually dismissed. Sounds good, until the state figures out the potential loss of gasoline tax revenue with nothing to offset it with.

 

[Car-Guy]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

IF this goes into effect they way it's planned, you can be sure they will encourage ("force") existing ICE owners to convert to EV's by making it cost prohibited to own an ICE vehicle. (e.g. more gas taxes, environmental taxes, etc.)

 

[skipro33]

And how is CA going to fix their black-out problems on their electrical grid in 15 years? Added EV demand just makes it that much tougher.

-ERD50

I had the same question.

I decided to see if there was anything else the governor was going to ban. Several reports on the gasoline car ban also reported Newsom is also expected to announce he will abolish the use of natural gas and propane appliances.

I might have expected banning the sale of new propane/gas appliances, but not the use of the ones already in service.