The Electric Vehicle Thread

[skipro33]

Kinda makes me appreciate off peak at .062 per KWH.

Ha!
I have solar. I love it when rates increase, it offsets my capital investment that much quicker.
Here's something about those PGE rates; when I over generate, meaning I produced more kw hours of electricity than I used for the year, PGE buys my excess at 'bulk rate'. This is the rate they pay for electric power in general. Right now, it's 3 cents a kwh. Assuming your utility company pays the same, they inflate their generation cost by a little more than 100%. That covers distribution and transmission costs as well as generation though.

 

[pj.mask]

For my take away summery of iron, it stores less energy than Nickel per weight/volume. But nickel is a lot more expensive and in shorter supply. The Tesla presentation also said something about more cycles/longer life?

Basically they want to use all the nickel they can for their cars/transportation.

Even though iron isn’t as good - it sounds like because of the price and because nobody cares if a grid battery pack weighs 1000lbs or 1500lbs it makes financial sense to use iron cathode batteries for grid storage.


I’m aware of California’s electricity rates. Solar is a great opportunity there. I think if everyone installed solar on their roofs in California - with a grid level battery storage, they will probably solve their energy problems. After some research with a install quote I get about $1/kWh/year (in some random google map address in San Bernardino.)

So to break even with $0.25/kWh in Cali you need the panels for 4 years.

For a very reasonable 10 year period that makes solar electrical cost $0.10/kWh

Independent of a electric car, if I lived in a high cost electricity state I’d look at solar. Then once I have solar I’d ask what is cheaper: gas or my solar energy cost?

The hard part is if there is high electricity costs and cloudy areas. Maybe Seattle? I dunno but I think for the majority of people, electric should work out cheaper than gasoline.

 

[Midpack]

Ha!
I have solar. I love it when rates increase, it offsets my capital investment that much quicker.
Here's something about those PGE rates; when I over generate, meaning I produced more kw hours of electricity than I used for the year, PGE buys my excess at 'bulk rate'. This is the rate they pay for electric power in general. Right now, it's 3 cents a kwh. Assuming your utility company pays the same, they inflate their generation cost by a little more than 100%. That covers distribution and transmission costs as well as generation though.

It probably won't be soon, but I wonder how long it will take for net metering to be eliminated. Supposedly Hawaii, Arizona, Connecticut, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, and New Hampshire are working to or have already begun to phase it out. There's no way net metering can continue indefinitely, at some point too few ratepayers will be paying ever more to maintain traditional utilities.

 

[CaptTom]

Edit: also they are moving towards heat pumps so that could really reduce the winter issues until you get around freezing temps.

LOL, reminds me of when a Florida company bought out our New England facility. They installed little reflectors along the access road which turned blue when it went below freezing. I guess to them the thought of freezing temperatures was frightening. We locals didn't need to be told when it was below freezing!

I also remember when Subaru was installing evaporative ("swamp") coolers in some vehicles. Yeah, those work great in the dessert. Not so much in humid climates.

My point: Cars have to work reliably in all climates. Heat pumps aren't going to solve the range problem in Winter.

Assuming your utility company pays the same, they inflate their generation cost by a little more than 100%. That covers distribution and transmission costs as well as generation though.

In what other industry do you expect the retailer to sell at the cost of the raw materials? Of course there's manufacturing, shipping, maintenance, overhead and, dare I say it, profit.

Have you bought bottled water lately? How much do you think the bottler "inflated" the cost they paid for the water, compared to what you paid?

 

[NW-Bound]

Lithium-iron-phosphate battery has been around for a while. It is called LiFePO4, or LFP for lithium ferrophosphate. No fancy and expensive material here. Iron and phosphate are like dirt. The cost is in the manufacturing process.

I have 22 kWh worth of LFP cells in my DIY home solar storage system. Got these as unused surplus industrial stock before it was all bought out, and now wish I bought more. You can look on the Web to see the price quoted by numerous vendors for consumer-type LFP batteries.

PS. The Chinese manufacturers are big on LFP cells. These are nearly universally used for industrial or grid energy storage, though not in Tesla Powerwall. They last a lot longer than the lithium cell used in consumer products, or in EVs.

 

[Car-Guy]

I thought about this thread this morning while listening to "Varney" on Fox Business... He had some "big wig" on his show from one of the companies (Electrify America) that runs a bunch of "charging" stations across the country... Finally someone asked and answered the cost per mile question between an ICE and EV that I've been wondering about.... Yes, I'm sure they all sorts of specials, discounts, overall cost, etc, etc that could be factored in by some deals... But I thought it is was a good general answer to the basic question of fuel cost (gas vs electricity) per mile without all the bias BS and other factors EV and ICE owners always want to bring in to the conversation. YMMV



https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/6194547710001/?playlist_id=933116618001#sp=show-clips

 

[explanade]

ID.4 First Edition sold out in under 8 hours.

That meant $100 refundable deposit online for however many cars they planned to deliver in the US this year.

Now you can only reserve the regular car with or without two large options packages.

 

[eroscott]

I think there's standardization going on. Seems to be Tesla vs. everyone else.

But I read somewhere that the EU has 300k chargers and US has less than half that. ...

Somewhat true in the USA but in the EU Tesla is doing CCS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System

The Combined Charging System (CCS) is a standard for charging electric vehicles. It uses the Combo 1 and Combo 2 connectors to provide power at up to 350 kilowatts. These two connectors are extensions of the Type 1 and Type 2 connectors, with two additional direct current (DC) contacts to allow high-power DC fast charging.

The Combined Charging System allows AC charging using the Type 1 and Type 2 connector depending on the geographical region. Since 2014 the European Union has required the provision of Type 2 or Combo 2 within the European electric vehicle network.[1]

 

[NW-Bound]

I thought about this thread this morning while listening to "Varney" on Fox Business... He had some "big wig" on his show from one of the companies (Electrify America) that runs a bunch of "charging" stations across the country... Finally someone asked and answered the cost per mile question between an ICE and EV that I've been wondering about.... Yes, I'm sure they all sorts of specials, discounts, overall cost, etc, etc that could be factored in by some deals... But I thought it is was a good general answer to the basic question of fuel cost (gas vs electricity) per mile without all the bias BS and other factors EV and ICE owners always want to bring in to the conversation. YMMV

https://video.foxbusiness.com/v/6194547710001/?playlist_id=933116618001#sp=show-clips

In a nutshell, what this director of Electrify America said: "10c/mile at his charging station, 4c/mile if you charge at home".

Given that an EV typically burns 1/3 kWh per mile, that's 30c/kWh at the "pump", or 12c/kWh at your home receptacle.

I'd say the above numbers are quite fair. My average electricity cost is indeed about 12c/kWh, although the price is higher than that during on-peak hours, and lower during off-peak period. The charging station has to charge more to cover his expenses and to make a bit of profit.

However, the above numbers look way too low if you are in California, according to a post that skipro made earlier, with the lowest rate being 17c/kWh, and the highest at 48c.

 

[skipro33]

In what other industry do you expect the retailer to sell at the cost of the raw materials? Of course there's manufacturing, shipping, maintenance, overhead and, dare I say it, profit.

I was just pointing out the uptick between raw material and final product. In this case, bulk electricity purchased and the final read of a residential bill.
How much profit the seller makes I do not know. As a private company, i doubt anyone truly knows. Enough to sell shares and keep management bonuses funded at least. As an in-general investor, I'm all for profit. As a customer, I want the lowest cost I can get.

 

[skipro33]

It probably won't be soon, but I wonder how long it will take for net metering to be eliminated. There's no way net metering can continue indefinitely, at some point too few ratepayers will be paying ever more to maintain traditional utilities.

I'm grandfathered in on my net metering until 2023. Anyone after 2016 is on a 2nd tier of net metering with PGE.

Net metering was a marketing ploy to encourage home owners to front the cost of the infrastructure. However, PGE isn't left holding the bag. For every home like mine that over generates during the peak of the day, the utility doesn't need to run a peaking power plant for those kilowatts. They are literally taking my excess electricity and marketing it at the highest rate of the day, then sending me power back after dark when they are literally loosing that power with spinning turbines. I know I'm not explaining this well, but my solar is supplementing the utility company in their favor by the TOU rates which more than offsets net metering.

 

[skipro33]

Something I wanted to bring up in the discussion is the highway system. Right now, that's mostly funded with the taxes on fuel. Some with taxes on vehicle registration and a little with vehicle sales taxes.
When vehicles change over to electric, the revenue from gasoline sales will dry up. Somehow the government is going to have to make up that loss. Probably by mileage. California has kicked around the idea of lowering fuel taxes and introducing a mileage tax at the time of registration. The problem is with the high cost of electric in California. Already shown by other posters that the rates in-state are well above the cost of fueling a vehicle with gas that pays tax for the roads, what would be the real cost of the EV once this shift from fuel tax to mileage tax is added? California charges about 55 cents a gallon for tax. Add on another 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax; total almost 75 cents tax per gallon that is not on the electricity, yet, for an EV.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

In a nutshell, what this director of Electrify America said: "10c/mile at his charging station, 4c/mile if you charge at home".

Given that an EV typically burns 1/3 kWh per mile, that's 30c/kWh at the "pump", or 12c/kWh at your home receptacle.

I'd say the above numbers are quite fair. My average electricity cost is indeed about 12c/kWh, although the price is higher than that during on-peak hours, and lower during off-peak period. The charging station has to charge more to cover his expenses and to make a bit of profit.

However, the above numbers look way too low if you are in California, according to a post that skipro made earlier, with the lowest rate being 17c/kWh, and the highest at 48c.

I checked my bill. Southern California Edison is 14c/kWh and I used 197 kWh. Bill was 28.47. One Tesla charged at home the other I charge at the superchargers (because it charges for free). That electric bill is for the entire household + 1 electric car.

 

[CaptTom]

...what would be the real cost of the EV once this shift from fuel tax to mileage tax is added? California charges about 55 cents a gallon for tax. Add on another 18.4 cents per gallon federal tax; total almost 75 cents tax per gallon that is not on the electricity, yet, for an EV.

Ooooo, good point!

I always thought tolls and fuel taxes were a bad way to raise funds for transportation. Tolls are inefficient, dangerous and bad for the environment. Fuel taxes are not much better.

The argument in favor of both is "let those who use it pay." But the reality is that almost everything we buy is transported over the roads. We ALL use them, whether or not we're behind the wheel. We all ought to pay our fair share.

You can argue about what's fair; graduated income tax, flat tax, etc. But putting that debate aside, just send me a bill for my share. Don't hide it in the fuel cost (why is it illegal to post the real price, before tax?!!) and don't nickle-and-dime me along the way.

 

[ERD50]

Ooooo, good point!

I always thought tolls and fuel taxes were a bad way to raise funds for transportation. Tolls are inefficient, dangerous and bad for the environment. Fuel taxes are not much better.

The argument in favor of both is "let those who use it pay." But the reality is that almost everything we buy is transported over the roads. We ALL use them, whether or not we're behind the wheel. We all ought to pay our fair share.

You can argue about what's fair; graduated income tax, flat tax, etc. But putting that debate aside, just send me a bill for my share. Don't hide it in the fuel cost (why is it illegal to post the real price, before tax?!!) and don't nickle-and-dime me along the way.

RE the part I bolded: Consumers who don't drive are still paying the road/fuel taxes for the stuff that they buy that is transported over roads. It's part of the price of the goods, it's all passed on to the consumer.

What is "fair" almost always gets interesting. I'm pretty sure that the semis and cement trucks do far, far more damage to the road than my compact SUV, so maybe they should be paying 99.997% of the road tax (and passing it on to consumers)?

Or maybe I should be paying my share for being able to use that road, whether I create the maintenance costs or not?

-ERD50

 

[explanade]

Some states already have surcharges in vehicle registrations for EVs.

 

[ERD50]

Yesterday the governor of California signed an order banning the sale of new gasoline cars by 2035. You can keep your old gasser though.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/23/916209659/california-governor-signs-order-banning-sales-of-new-gasoline-cars-by-2035

Another thought on no ICE purchases beyond 2035. We've already talked about the fragile grid in CA, but what about all the people in apartments, or who only have street parking access? In 15 years, everyone will have a plug in their apartment parking lot or street? That seems like a pretty big undertaking - can CA afford that?

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Some states already have surcharges in vehicle registrations for EVs.

Rather ironic that the Govt provides a tax break for buying an EV, then adds a tax surcharge for owning an EV!

Don't just do something, stand there!

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Will there be a market in the US for mini EVs like this Hongguang EV which is offered right now in China? The price? About $5K, for a vehicle with a range of about 100 miles.

I just learned about the above mini EV, and also that China already has even smaller and cheaper mini EVs that cost around $2K. These $2K mini EVs are bought by old Chinese people to drive their grandchildren a few miles to/from school, or use them the way US retirees use a golfcart.


PS. One data point of interest: The Hongguang Mini EV has a battery of 13 kWh. Not bad for a $5K vehicle, compared to the long-range Tesla 3 with a 75-kWh battery which goes for $55K (without autopilot).

 

[skipro33]

I'm kinda hoping that the evolution of EV's coincides with self driving cars. That individuals won't own cars, rather just summon one with a phone app. If enough people did this, there would be a car coming to your call within minutes, drop you off to take the next caller, then when you are ready to head home or wherever, page another car to come pick you up.
You would never need to have to worry about charging, ownership costs, insurance, etc. Probably the home budget for daily transportation would be less. Homes would not need a garage or even a driveway? I imagine that the efficiency would reduce a lot of parking needs as well.

 

[explanade]

I think Chinese manufacturers are trying to break into the Europe and US markets over time.

But I would guess that if they have to meet US and EU safety regulations, those cars would have to become heavier and more expensive, with bigger battery packs.

Japanese manufacturers are also building small EV cars for China, in partnership with local manufacturers. For instance Honda has one sporting retro round headlights but the range is a little over 100 miles or something like that.

Range anxiety seems to be in the US so I don't know if they will catch on. For instance, the Nissan Leaf has been dirt cheap at times and there are a lot of them out there. But I think the Tesla still outsells it despite the price difference.

Then of course there are those Smart cars, two seaters which are very small. They might make more sense in bigger cities, where parking can be difficult. I've seen a few in Santa Clara Valley but not that many.

Americans prefer SUVs or CUVs at a minimum, sitting high up.

 

[NW-Bound]

I'm kinda hoping that the evolution of EV's coincides with self driving cars. That individuals won't own cars, rather just summon one with a phone app. If enough people did this, there would be a car coming to your call within minutes, drop you off to take the next caller, then when you are ready to head home or wherever, page another car to come pick you up.
You would never need to have to worry about charging, ownership costs, insurance, etc. Probably the home budget for daily transportation would be less. Homes would not need a garage or even a driveway? I imagine that the efficiency would reduce a lot of parking needs as well.

Yes, self-driving cars would simplify a lot of matters. As people do not own cars, they no longer spend so much time shopping for one. No more agonizing over choice of style, paint color, interior design, etc... More time to surf the Web.

But then, we will not have threads like this, will we? Or will we still talk about different car models that different taxi companies use? Debate about how comfortable the Tesla taxi seat is, relative to the Ford taxi? How aggressive the autopilot of one model is, compared to another brand? "You know what? My Chevy taxi was a coward, and constantly cut-off by other taxis on the ride to the airport the other day. It caused me to miss my flight".

 

[explanade]

after the pandemic, I wonder how car shares will be viewed.

I would think Uber and Leaf activity has fallen off a cliff.

But even with autonomous cars, you don't know who was in the car before you, what they were doing, when it was last cleaned, decontaminated.

People with money will still buy their own cars, even self-driving ones.

 

[skipro33]

after the pandemic, I wonder how car shares will be viewed.

I would think Uber and Leaf activity has fallen off a cliff.

But even with autonomous cars, you don't know who was in the car before you, what they were doing, when it was last cleaned, decontaminated.

People with money will still buy their own cars, even self-driving ones.

Locally, Uber is doing well. Mostly because public transport has been reduced to skeleton routes. I read a story in the newspaper last week about an 80-something woman who used to use public transport and now uses some sort of on-call bus. She gets out to shop, go to the park for a walk, etc, then back home.

Regarding cleanliness of the shared cars, I would think self driving cars would be a complete blank slate for redesign. No need for the traditional interior, I think it would be more like a lounge. built in high intensity UV lighting and those new sprays they are using on aircraft would take minutes at most to sterilize an interior.

I'm sure the pleasure of driving would be something to consider. I still own motorcycles for that reason. Just plain fun to hop on the bike and roll out 100 miles of twisty back roads. Something about being in control I guess.

 

[MRG]

Will there be a market in the US for mini EVs like this Hongguang EV which is offered right now in China? The price? About $5K, for a vehicle with a range of about 100 miles.

I just learned about the above mini EV, and also that China already has even smaller and cheaper mini EVs that cost around $2K. These $2K mini EVs are bought by old Chinese people to drive their grandchildren a few miles to/from school, or use them the way US retirees use a golfcart.


PS. One data point of interest: The Hongguang Mini EV has a battery of 13 kWh. Not bad for a $5K vehicle, compared to the long-range Tesla 3 with a 75-kWh battery which goes for $55K (without autopilot).

That,55k, is the price for the Performance Model 3, not the long range. The long range is $46,990 with a 322 mile range. It has autopilot standard, full self driving is 8k more.