The Electric Vehicle Thread

[ERD50]

There is a tremendous amount of energy flowing yearly down the Mississippi River. Not a dam, but use turbines on barges to harness some of that energy. That would be 24/7/365 availability. Seasonal fluctuations but still lots of energy available.

Please provide a source that puts that into perspective.

From my reading, "run of the river" plans provide a relatively small amount of energy. That is why they build dams. The PSI increases ~ .433 per foot of elevation. Hoover dam has ~ 500' average head, so ~ 215 PSI at the turbine.

And while they may seem more environmentally friendly, the low output may mean that the impact is still large relative to output.

Why is there so little done today?

-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

Model Y on Autobahn

I may have too much time on my hands, but I found this video of a Tesla Model Y on the Autobahn a bit hypnotizing. The car looks very smooth and manageable at 217 kph (135 mph). Obviously, range will take a big hit at high speeds, but not as much as I would have thought.

 

[oneill225]

Short Road Trip

A short video for those who have questions about road trips in an EV. As range/charging networks continue to climb and charging times continue to fall, this will become even easier a year or two from now:

 

[explanade]

This is a good comparison between the Tesla Model Y and the Audi Q4 E-Tron. In summary, the Audi has a nice interior, but performance and tech in the Tesla are better. Maybe the most important difference is that the Tesla gets around 85 more miles of range and is faster than the Audi. Cost-wise, they are similar if Tesla starts getting the $7,500 tax rebate.

There's a bill to restore tax credits to all manufacturers.

But until that is passed, Tesla has a price premium.

I believe the Audi interior is recycled plastics, don't think they offer leather as an option?

The more expensive E-Trons have leather but lower range than the Q4.

 

[explanade]

Does anyone know if the Audi is as "maintenance-free" as Teslas have tended to be? Anyone I've known with an Audi considers Audi maintenance to be outrageously expensive. I've seen similar complaints on the net but I have no idea if that would translate to the EV.

The Audi hasn’t been out long enough to be sure. I haven’t even seen one in the US yet. I can confirm from the ICE Audi perspective that service at an Audi dealer is ridiculous. Best to find a competent independent garage once the warranty is up, or DIY it. Having said that, Audi does have an established network for service assuming they get all the dealers trained up. Usually you get an excellent service experience but there can be some German engineering arrogance if any significant issues they disagree with develop.

Yeah I don't know how Audi ranks in reliability compared to other brands.

But all the German manufacturers have expensive maintenance and repairs out of warranty. Maybe not VW.

So a lot of these cars tend to be leased, not bought. BMW has a lease program with all the maintenance covered during the lease period. Audi requires you to buy a maintenance package.

With EVs, it's not clear if the same kinds of maintenance would be required. Certainly no cooling system but there's a lot less mechanical content.

OTOH, with the high torque at low RPMs, tire wear could be greater and maybe more stress on brakes, though regenerative braking may change that equation.

I think the rear brakes of a lot of EVs are drums instead of discs, because of regenerative braking?

 

[Popeye]

Yeah I don't know how Audi ranks in reliability compared to other brands.

But all the German manufacturers have expensive maintenance and repairs out of warranty. Maybe not VW.

So a lot of these cars tend to be leased, not bought. BMW has a lease program with all the maintenance covered during the lease period. Audi requires you to buy a maintenance package.

With EVs, it's not clear if the same kinds of maintenance would be required. Certainly no cooling system but there's a lot less mechanical content.

OTOH, with the high torque at low RPMs, tire wear could be greater and maybe more stress on brakes, though regenerative braking may change that equation.

I think the rear brakes of a lot of EVs are drums instead of discs, because of regenerative braking?

Audi reliability was fine for me. I felt the problem was durability. Around 60k miles or so some $$$ items needed work. That’s when you make the move. The sport suspension rear shocks would be over 2k installed! Yikes!

Yes, it’s a common theme on the German cars. They are not engineered with repair costs in mind. Labor intensive, special tools, etc.

 

[MRG]

Yeah I don't know how Audi ranks in reliability compared to other brands.



But all the German manufacturers have expensive maintenance and repairs out of warranty. Maybe not VW.



So a lot of these cars tend to be leased, not bought. BMW has a lease program with all the maintenance covered during the lease period. Audi requires you to buy a maintenance package.



With EVs, it's not clear if the same kinds of maintenance would be required. Certainly no cooling system but there's a lot less mechanical content.



OTOH, with the high torque at low RPMs, tire wear could be greater and maybe more stress on brakes, though regenerative braking may change that equation.



I think the rear brakes of a lot of EVs are drums instead of discs, because of regenerative braking?

Tires can wear faster, I'm planning on rotation but I may have to replace soon. That's only because I like the acceleration, it doesn't get old. Brakes? I use the ""hold" setting for my regen braking and seldom use the disks on all 4 wheels. I try to remember to use them once in a while before they rust. Tesla recommends adding windshield wiper fluid, tire rotation, and brake checks for maintenance. There's no ICE, transmission, cooling systems, transfer cases, driveshafts.... on EVs. Many parts that go whirl, click, round and round aren't needed.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

With EVs, it's not clear if the same kinds of maintenance would be required. Certainly no cooling system but there's a lot less mechanical content.



OTOH, with the high torque at low RPMs, tire wear could be greater and maybe more stress on brakes, though regenerative braking may change that equation.



I think the rear brakes of a lot of EVs are drums instead of discs, because of regenerative braking?

There isn’t a cooling system like that of an ICE but there is a battery management system that circulates through the electric motors & battery for most EV’s with the exception of some lower cost models such as the first generation Leaf. It’s a sealed system & difficult for a DIY mechanic to access. EV motors generate heat as well as batteries, especially while charging. Batteries charge best around mid 70’s temperatures so the system both heats & cools. Manufacturers warn against opening the systems due to the possibility of introducing contaminants. Models without a BMS are not popular with most buyers that are familiar with EV’s & are really only suited for mild climates.

 

[oneill225]

Maintenance Cost for Model 3

This is a good overview for one person's 2018 Tesla Model 3 maintenance over a three year period:

 

[Koolau]

This is a good overview for one person's 2018 Tesla Model 3 maintenance over a three year period:

I don't recall either of my ICE Toyotas (up to 95000 miles) needing anything other than routine replaceable items (oil/filter, tires, brake pads - don't think I ever had to do brakes either.) YMMV

 

[explanade]

Your lease car is probably worth more than the agreed upon purchase price. You might be able to leverage that to make a few bucks.

Hmm, you mean pay the residual and sell it used?

One reason I got the lease was to avoid having to sell.

So this idea made me over $6000.

It never occurred to me to pay off the amount at the end of the lease to keep the car and then re-sell it to a dealer in the HOT used car market.

Thanks a bunch traveler!

Online quotes showed prices well above the pay off amount for me to keep the car.

First couple of dealers tried to low ball me. I still would have made a profit but not nearly as much as I ended up making.

What is odd is, they can look up the VIN and find what my payoff is. Even odder, they are logging offers they make on a car.

For instance, one dealer told me that they knew what I was offered on the first appraisal. Except they were wrong, the first dealer offered me well under the figure. But then they said they were probably authorized to offer that much but offered me well below it.

I can understand dealer groups like AutoNation knowing what offers were made on my used car. But I don't understand how they knew what dealers outside these groups offered.

In any event, the second dealer said I'd make over $4500 if I took their offer.

I told them I'm inclined to check with others because their offer was well below the Car Max and Kelly Blue Book offers.

The third dealer said they'd give the KBB offer so I took it. Maybe they didn't know what the second dealer offered after all. They're right next to each other but in separate groups so maybe the first and second dealers were in the same dealer group though I didn't think that was the case.


Here I was worried that I'd have to pay to return the car because there was a ding in one fender and a small chip towards the bottom of the windshield. Otherwise the car was in great condition, only 11k mileage after 3 years.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if they can make $10k on it.

But they said they don't have any new cars, they've been making money for awhile just on used cars. They will not ship it to another dealer in the dealer group network, they will sell it there, even though it's a different brand than the one they sell.

Makes you think that they probably track new car negotiations the same way, probably by the driver's license number of the potential buyer.

 

[RobLJ]

With EVs, it's not clear if the same kinds of maintenance would be required. Certainly no cooling system but there's a lot less mechanical content.

Here is the Bolt maintenance schedule. Other than rotating tires and replacing cabin air filters it is..... drain and replace battery coolant fluids at 150000 miles.

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Maintenance%20Schedule.pdf

I don't know about tire wear but I haven't noticed anything of concern, but I'm only at 12500. (I'm ignoring the free battery replacement.)

 

[explanade]

Here is the Bolt maintenance schedule. Other than rotating tires and replacing cabin air filters it is..... drain and replace battery coolant fluids at 150000 miles.

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Maintenance%20Schedule.pdf

I don't know about tire wear but I haven't noticed anything of concern, but I'm only at 12500. (I'm ignoring the free battery replacement.)

Are you parking in your garage or apart from other cars as GM supposedly recommended?

Are they going to replace your battery pack?

 

[travelover]

So this idea made me over $6000.

It never occurred to me to pay off the amount at the end of the lease to keep the car and then re-sell it to a dealer in the HOT used car market.

Thanks a bunch traveler!

.........

I'm glad this worked out for you, but I have to refuse your offer of sending me half the profit.

 

[explanade]

If you have a spare car, might be worth checking some online quotes.

 

[NW-Bound]

So this idea made me over $6000.

It never occurred to me to pay off the amount at the end of the lease to keep the car and then re-sell it to a dealer in the HOT used car market.

Thanks a bunch traveler!

Now that you made a windfall profit, what do you do for transportation?

 

[explanade]

Well I was going to use food delivery but my elderly mother has an old car she’s not using.

We’ve kept her from going out though she’s sometimes stir crazy about going out.

Some dealers are saying they won’t mark up so I may see if I can get another lease soon.

 

[oneill225]

Tesla's Competition

GM and other legacy car makers have used the "chip shortage" to explain their drop in sales. Cathie Wood points out that EVs actually use more chips than ICE and that Tesla sales continue to climb:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-bull-cathie-wood-vs-gm-sales/

Tesla's Q3 sales just exceeded expectations.

 

[ERD50]

GM and other legacy car makers have used the "chip shortage" to explain their drop in sales. Cathie Wood points out that EVs actually use more chips than ICE and that Tesla sales continue to climb:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-bull-cathie-wood-vs-gm-sales/

Tesla's Q3 sales just exceeded expectations.

So are you saying that the "chip shortage" (in quotes? You don't think it's real?) is just an excuse for low sales? That the other car companies sales just dropped off a cliff, even if they could get chips?

That would need more backup. Did Tesla sales make up for the total drop in sales of the rest of the car companies? I highly doubt that. There's plenty of demand for the other cars, prices have gone up. If the "chip shortage" was just an excuse, legacy car companies would be dropping prices.

Again, it appears your love for Tesla clouds your thinking. No, there is a more reasonable explanation:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/chip-shortage

Chips for the automotive sector are made using processes intended to meet safety criteria that are different from those meant for other industries. But they are still fabricated on the same production lines as the analog ICs, power management chips, display drivers, microcontrollers, and sensors that go in everything else. “The common denominator is the process technology is 40 nanometers and older," says Mario Morales, vice president, enabling technologies and semiconductors at IDC.

....

Today these old nodes are typically used on 200-mm wafers of silicon. To reduce cost, the industry began moving to 300-mm wafers in 2000, ...

Despite the auto industry's desperation, there's no great rush to build new 200-mm fabs. “The return on investment just isn't there,"

The legacy car companies use legacy chips/processes. There really was no need for them to update the process for chips that worked. The old processes were established and qualified, and cheap as the equipment cost was already amortized. But the drop in demand when COVID hit had the chip makers move to the newer processes, which also had more profit margin. The chip makers aren't interested in moving back - but I'm sure they would at the right price.

Tesla isn't a legacy car company, they don't use legacy chips. Shortage isn't affecting them to the same degree. Simple explanation.

-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

So are you saying that the "chip shortage" (in quotes? You don't think it's real?) is just an excuse for low sales? That the other car companies sales just dropped off a cliff, even if they could get chips?

I'm sure it is real. The question is whether it is a sufficient excuse to account for the drop in sales or just a convenient way to distract from other issues like poor management and weak products. Time will tell.

That would need more backup. Did Tesla sales make up for the total drop in sales of the rest of the car companies? I highly doubt that. There's plenty of demand for the other cars, prices have gone up. If the "chip shortage" was just an excuse, legacy car companies would be dropping prices.
Again, it appears your love for Tesla clouds your thinking. No, there is a more reasonable explanation:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/chip-shortage
The legacy car companies use legacy chips/processes. There really was no need for them to update the process for chips that worked. The old processes were established and qualified, and cheap as the equipment cost was already amortized. But the drop in demand when COVID hit had the chip makers move to the newer processes, which also had more profit margin. The chip makers aren't interested in moving back - but I'm sure they would at the right price.
Tesla isn't a legacy car company, they don't use legacy chips. Shortage isn't affecting them to the same degree. Simple explanation.-ERD50

Tesla adapted and overcame. Here is just one way they outperformed the legacy ICE makers:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-copes-with-chip-shortages-by-writing-more-software

Whether you love Tesla or not, they appear to be pulling away from the legacy car makers.

 

[Koolau]

I'm sure it is real. The question is whether it is a sufficient excuse to account for the drop in sales or just a convenient way to distract from other issues like poor management and weak products. Time will tell.



Tesla adapted and overcame. Here is just one way they outperformed the legacy ICE makers:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/tesla-copes-with-chip-shortages-by-writing-more-software

Whether you love Tesla or not, they appear to be pulling away from the legacy car makers.

I don't doubt your analysis regarding chips, but I still believe Tesla specifically and EVs in general will bump up against our current electrical infrastructure. The issues are (at minimum) an aging electrical grid and especially declining (or at least not increasing rapidly) electricity production. The current attitude seems to be that fossil fuels (and nuclear) should no longer be used to produce electricity - at least among folks who speak the loudest. YMMV

 

[oneill225]

I don't doubt your analysis regarding chips, but I still believe Tesla specifically and EVs in general will bump up against our current electrical infrastructure. The issues are (at minimum) an aging electrical grid and especially declining (or at least not increasing rapidly) electricity production. The current attitude seems to be that fossil fuels (and nuclear) should no longer be used to produce electricity - at least among folks who speak the loudest. YMMV

I agree that more electricity will need to be generated, but it will be a gradual increase and fully within our control.

Most Americans would love to see solar and wind displace fossil fuel electric generators, but they will not accept rolling blackouts or crazy energy prices while that transition happens over the coming decades.

Politicians who are unwilling to allow for new natural gas generators will be replaced by ones who will (should it come to that).

 

[aja8888]

I agree that more electricity will need to be generated, but it will be a gradual increase and fully within our control.

Most Americans would love to see solar and wind displace fossil fuel electric generators, but they will not accept rolling blackouts or crazy energy prices while that transition happens over the coming decades.

Politicians who are unwilling to allow for new natural gas generators will be replaced by ones who will (should it come to that).

Have you been to the U.K.lately? Things aren't going so smoothly from a wind power basis.

 

[Koolau]

I agree that more electricity will need to be generated, but it will be a gradual increase and fully within our control.

Most Americans would love to see solar and wind displace fossil fuel electric generators, but they will not accept rolling blackouts or crazy energy prices while that transition happens over the coming decades.

Politicians who are unwilling to allow for new natural gas generators will be replaced by ones who will (should it come to that).

I agree in principle. In reality, in today's climate the "die-hard" greens will not cave UNTIL blackouts and crazy prices are routine. Then, they'll become almost as rabid as us moderately greens. Unfortunately, that will mean a prolonged period of travail while we all adjust. Who knows? At some point, driving electric might be MORE expensive (for fuel) than an ICE but YMMV.

 

[oneill225]

Have you been to the U.K.lately? Things aren't going so smoothly from a wind power basis.

I don't know that we are disagreeing on anything.

I think it is obvious that wind and solar cannot replace fossil fuel generation until we get better energy storage solutions. Those storage solutions appear to be decades out. In the meantime, natural gas is the cleanest available source to fill out the grid. Nuclear seems to be a no go, but those attitudes could shift, as well.

Personally, I don't care where the power comes from. I could even live with "clean" coal power. Natural gas is the cleanest (aside from nuclear), however, so that should be the first choice among those who do care.

As you point out, this issue is playing out in Europe. It is also becoming an issue in the U.S. where the government (State and Fed) has blindly subsidized the hell out of solar and wind. My point is that when the power goes out, the poop hits the fan. No politician can survive blackouts for very long, so they will do whatever is necessary to keep the power on.