The Volkswagen Whee ..

Thanks, we'll see...
 
In the UK the CO2 emissions, along with engine size and fuel type, determines the annual road tax of the vehicle so if the affected cars actually have higher emissions than that published then VW can also expect to be sued for loss of tax revenue. The UK has already put out a statement that existing owners of affected cars will not have to pay extra road tax.
 
Alan said:
In the UK the CO2 emissions, along with engine size and fuel type, determines the annual road tax of the vehicle so if the affected cars actually have higher emissions than that published then VW can also expect to be sued for loss of tax revenue. The UK has already put out a statement that existing owners of affected cars will not have to pay extra road tax.
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I just went on the UK Car tax site and looked up the tax on a 2015 Golf Diesel and can see the stated CO2 emissions as part of the tax calculation.
 

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I know that there was a discussion on the 'wrong' gas mileage from overseas.... are you aware that the gallon in the UK is not the same as a gallon here?

It is approximately 1.2 of our gallons...

It first came to my attention when we used to go out for a pint of beer and it was more than you got here....


As to loss of value... that is something that can be determined today.... I got a check from the insurance company for the loss in value of my new car when their insured ran into me... it does not matter when I sell it... the loss in value happened when he hit the car.... so I get that amount now....

I have stated it before, but I think the people who bought VW shares and lost a big percent of their investment will sue.... that is probably an easy win for them....
 
Some perspective on VW US sales. And add to that, diesels name up a much smaller percentage of cars sold in the US as compared to Europe.
 

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Models affected in the US.
 

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Well they bet their future on pushing "clean" diesel for the U.S., and it turned out to be a mirage - not so clean.

What a major push/competitive edge turns out to be the opposite - ouch!

Which really makes me wonder how high up this was known. If a company bets their future on a technology - well you wouldn't expect them to do that if they knew the game would be up someday. The feelings of betrayal must be internal to the company as well.
 
For example, Volkswagen Golf TDI, a diesel compact sold in Europe and America. VW's British Web site lists its fuel economy at 46.3 m.p.g. in the city, 68.9 on the highway and 58.9 in combined driving. The same car, with the same engine and transmission, rated 30 m.p.g. city/42 highway and 34 combined in U.S. EPA test.
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I think it is interesting that, allowing for the difference in size between Imperial and U.S. gallons, the Euro fuel economy numbers are close to the original-style U.S. CAFE numbers. A rough comparison between EPA and CAFE numbers can be found here: http://www3.epa.gov/fueleconomy/documents/420b14015.pdf .
 
Totoro said:
I could imagine a scenario where all the assets of VW are transferred to a government owned entity.

Sort of a bailout where all legal claims are discarded. To preserve jobs and such.

Time will tell if it gets to that.
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aja8888 said:
This is the BP oil spill on wheels!:D
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I disagree, the BP oil spill was due to incompetence/negligence and resulted in a major environmental disaster.

The VW fiasco is due to outright deception, knowing full well what they were doing was in violation of environmental regulations.

It would be interesting if someone could quantify the damage to the environment caused by VW's deception and compare it to the environmental impact of BP's oil spill. I realize not an apples to apples comparison but it would give one some frame of reference.
 
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frayne said:
I disagree, the BP oil spill was due to incompetence/negligence and resulted in a major environmental disaster.

The VW fiasco is due to outright deception, knowing full well what they were doing was in violation of environmental regulations.

It would be interesting if someone could quantify the damage to the environment caused by VW's deception and compare it to the environmental impact of BP's oil spill. I realize not an apples to apples comparison but it would give one some frame of reference.
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I meant from a dollars ($$$$$) perspective.

And the BP spill had some "knowledge of violation of government regulations" stuff going on also. But that is not for discussion here.
 
So two engineers design a solution to pass international testing standards, they of course didn't have any manager, and because they were so trusted their code was never put through any change control or design review.

Two guys in a closet solved the intractable problem of how to burn diesel cleanly with software and still get performance, and not a single person asked for a powerpoint explaining this market advantaged technology that should be patented.

No, we just trusted hans & franz.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum
 
dallas27 said:
So two engineers design a solution to pass international testing standards, they of course didn't have any manager, and because they were so trusted their code was never put through any change control or design review.

Two guys in a closet solved the intractable problem of how to burn diesel cleanly with software and still get performance, and not a single person asked for a powerpoint explaining this market advantaged technology that should be patented.

No, we just trusted hans & franz.
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Funny how that works, especially given all the micro management that seems popular these days.
 
We stopped beating them when they came up with the solution we wanted. You expected us to ask how they did it?
 
dallas27 said:
So two engineers design a solution to pass international testing standards, they of course didn't have any manager, and because they were so trusted their code was never put through any change control or design review.

Two guys in a closet solved the intractable problem of how to burn diesel cleanly with software and still get performance, and not a single person asked for a powerpoint explaining this market advantaged technology that should be patented.

No, we just trusted hans & franz.
Click to expand...
Not defending VW or saying this POV isn't plausible.

But many in the management old guard are still shockingly technically illiterate, most of my generation just get by at best. It's not impossible the manager wouldn't have a clue about the nuts and bolts of what the engineers did unless someone told them, they'd never find it on their own. Nor is it impossible the managers essentially told the engineers 'I don't care how, just give us the results we want/need.' Just another plausible scenario.

I doubt most employees even today, young or old, know enough to question much in the IT realm - they have to 'trust Hans & Franz'
 
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Midpack said:
Not defending VW or saying this POV isn't plausible.

But many in the management old guard are still shockingly technically illiterate, most of my generation just get by at best. It's not impossible the manager wouldn't have a clue about the nuts and bolts of what the engineers did unless someone told them, they'd never find it on their own. Nor is it impossible the managers essentially told the engineers 'I don't care how, just give us the results we want/need.' Just another plausible scenario.

I doubt most employees even today, young or old, know enough to question much in the IT realm - they have to 'trust Hans & Franz'
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Anything is possible, and there is something to what you say. However...

from what I'm reading, VW managed to pass the US emissions test with less hardware than their competitors, and still get good performance. Maybe the very top level would not be asking questions, though I suspect that a corp like VW has a Chief Technology Officer - our megacorp did, and he was definitely a technical guy - and it would be his job to understand the technical reasons that VW could achieve this (and patent it?).

As I described earlier, it could have been a very small group that actually wrote the cheat code and inserted it as part of the last integration step (so no one else saw it). And the cheat code likely just took advantage of existing variables/flags that normally existed in the emission control software modules for other valid uses (testing, debug, evaluation, QC, etc), so no suspicion would be raised at that level.

But I just can't see a scenario where two engineers in the module integration ('packaging') team would be motivated to do this. 'Packaging' is not a glamorous, sought-after position, it's a thankless, nuts-and-bolts sort of job. Those engineers would not be rewarded (internally) for getting the emissions down, no one would even look to them for that (which is why it would be a good place to insert the cheat code).

Far more likely that it was driven by someone with management authority (lower than C-level maybe). Someone who could manage to get some trusted, paid-off 'ringers' onto the packaging team to pull this off. And someone who would really benefit with bonuses/promotion for getting the cars to pass the test.

I'll be shocked if this comes down to a few low-level engineers working independently from management (unless VW does a really good job of hiding the evidence, and throwing some engineers under the bus). Follow the money - they just wouldn't have the incentive, and probably would have been caught if it weren't for some collusion.

-ERD50
 
dallas27 said:
So two engineers design a solution to pass international testing standards, they of course didn't have any manager, and because they were so trusted their code was never put through any change control or design review.

Two guys in a closet solved the intractable problem of how to burn diesel cleanly with software and still get performance, and not a single person asked for a powerpoint explaining this market advantaged technology that should be patented.

No, we just trusted hans & franz.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum
Click to expand...
Exactly!

And the management, so thrilled with this huge competitive edge, bet the company on exploiting this edge to the max!!!

But ERD50 has a good point - follow the money: who would get the promotions/pay back for such an exploit.
 
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