There is hope after all

[youbet]

I think it's immoral for our country to let the current situation persist. It's not right to have a permanent underclass operating in the shadows so that we can have cheap lettuce and manicured lawns. These people need to either be legalized or sent home (or both - sent home before being offered a path to citizenship or worker visa).

Yes.

Of course, if you legalize them, there will quickly be a similar sized group of replacement illegals. And you if legalize those, they'll quickly be replaced by a similar sized group of replacement illegals, and so on......

The politicians who tell us that they want to legalize those already here but then prevent more from coming illegally are liars. They know legalizing the ones already here will simply provide incentive for more to come, particularly the extended family members of the ones being legalized.

IMO, our choices are to either send the current illegals back (indirectly, by enforcing employment rules already in existence) or open the borders. Keeping the ones we have but preventing further illegal immigration is an oxymoron.

 

[haha]

[soap box on]
gee Walt, I hope you mow your own lawn and other home owner services, do all of your own home improvements, don't go out to eat at nice restaurants, ...etc. because the price of these will sky rocket if this happens.

So taxpayers should subsidize your lawn care and dining out? I don't see why.

Ha

 

[megacorp-firee]

Sigh. You are so right. Is there a difference between politicians and whores?

I can't tell

Whores seem to be more trustworthy and loyal.

 

[megacorp-firee]

So taxpayers should subsidize your lawn care and dining out? I don't see why.

Ha

That was not my point. The current workers in our society, both legal and illegal, are what they are. If you were to take one group out, then that would leave a big gap. Things would stop working, real quickly. Americans have a hard time walking to the corner to the drugstore (they have get into their SUV's) much less doing low paying menial jobs.
IMO that would not actually happen, what seems to happen is that the minute you catch one guy, another guy is there to take his place. We Americans seem to think that these guys are being immorally taken advantage of. They are coming here ON PURPOSE. I don't see us building walls to keep people in. They don't come only for the menial jobs, although the pay is so whooping big, they work and save here and go back to whereever (Mexico, Poland, Central America, you name the place) and buy half their village and retire comfortably. The real draw is to get part of this American dream for their kids and future generations. As BAD as it is a life for them as menial laborers, it is a hell of lot better than what they came from. ok off soap box again .

[turn sarcasm on]
I would agree that the only way to really solve this would be to close off the borders of the country, have neighbors and family members turning in their illegal friends, relative, and aquaintances. Have the police monitor each and every person, have them register at the local police station. Limit everyones movements, so we know where all of our legal citizens are.... whoops, that was tried already .. I think they called it the Peoples Republic of China ... it worked so well, they are giving it up for capitalism ... (small c).
[turn sarcasm off]

Every current situation is 'a current situation' by definition. I didn't say it was a new situation. I said it's immoral to let it continue.

What happened to the Irish or Chinese has no bearing on the morality of this situation. It is wrong for us as a nation to use these people like we are even if they are willing participants. We can't just avert our eyes and hope that in a few generations everything will be ok. In my opinion, the situation needs to be dealt with humanely and not ignored.

BristolBane, see above response.

 

[Walt34]

That was not my point. The current workers in our society, both legal and illegal, are what they are. If you were to take one group out, then that would leave a big gap. Things would stop working, real quickly. Americans have a hard time walking to the corner to the drugstore (they have get into their SUV's) much less doing low paying menial jobs.

I disagree. Given real enforcement of immigration laws the price of services that you mention, roofing, lawn care, etc., would rise to the level that it supports a legitimate immigrant. And yes, the "American Standard Of Living" would go down. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Who could possibly need a 6,000 square foot home? From my perspective something like that is merely a monument to consumerism.

It is doubtful that "things would stop working real quickly" - people would either pay what product/services are worth or they'd decide that they don't really need them after all.

I am aware that there are families in other parts of the world who would be thrilled to call my back yard shed "home". That sounds like my mother telling me "Eat your peas. Think of all the starving children in (name of country)". The relevance escapes me.

 

[megacorp-firee]

I disagree. Given real enforcement of immigration laws the price of services that you mention, roofing, lawn care, etc., would rise to the level that it supports a legitimate immigrant.

I don't think that it is realistic to expect real enforcement of immigration laws. They have been on the books for a long time and not enforced very well to date. It's kind of like the 'war on drugs'. That had failed miserably. I remember reading in history class about prohibition, ... didn't work either. I believe that laws work only when the majority of society is willing to support them. Right now that does not seem to be the case for illegal immigration. When you count the relevant population, you have to count the people who hire the illegals, as well as the illegals themselves.
I am an advocate of realistic actions. Theoretical ones are good for debating (and I will agree that they do pave the road to possible FUTURE actions), but when the smoke clears, you have not accomplished much in the short term.

And yes, the "American Standard Of Living" would go down. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Who could possibly need a 6,000 square foot home? From my perspective something like that is merely a monument to consumerism.

I respect your right to your opinion. However I don’t see the relevance to this argument.

It is doubtful that "things would stop working real quickly" - people would either pay what product/services are worth or they'd decide that they don't really need them after all.

IMO it may be somewhat more disruptive than you would portray. ... but I could be wrong. I think that some products would not survive the economics of increased cost of services. How much would you be willing to pay for your fruits, veggies, ...etc. Entire industries rely upon low cost labor. Fair, maybe not, but a fact. It's really easy to intellectualize (is that a word?) on the subject and say 'let them eat cake'... you know what happened to the last person who advocated that.

I am aware that there are families in other parts of the world who would be thrilled to call my back yard shed "home". That sounds like my mother telling me "Eat your peas. Think of all the starving children in (name of country)". The relevance escapes me.

The relevance is that where there is opportunity (like in our country) people will do a lot of things to get a chance to participate in our system. I am sure we have all heard the stories about truckloads of illegals crossing the desert in 100 degree heat, containerloads of illegals coming into all of our ports of entry, leaky boats arriving in Florida, ...etc.