Vanguard - last straw?

[Graybeard]

In further piling on to Vanguard, this came in my email today from Seeking Alpha.

It is lengthy and describes why if you own VTSAX you should go from the mutual fund to the ETF (VTI), but then delves into the issues with Vanguard. It certainly gives me pause regarding Vanguard.

Bob

That Seeking Alpha link was quite a read! I have read many, if not all, of the Vanguard complaint threads at BH. There are a lot of unhappy people but honestly I have never experienced any problems with phone calls re long waits, bad advice though I have seldom had a reason to call and no complicated issues, the website looks the same as it has for a long time and I find it easy to use, I never used a smart phone to access Vanguard, I'm in the Eastern time zone problems for California don't effect me, I just don't know what all the problems are cuz I sure haven't had any.

When I read these articles or threads, I wonder if I should move to Fido or Schwab or should I go into ETFs vs the mutual funds but why when things are working OK for me. The 3 equity funds I hold have an ETF but the 3 fixed income funds don't and to me that is a big problem. I check my asset allocation mid month and end of month and the mutual fund balances aren't ready until the wee hours of the next day so I just check them before 4 pm on the next day, if I had ETFs and mutual funds I would have to do this before 9:30 am otherwise the ETFs are constantly changing when the market opens.

I'm sure some people have had problems but to me it is a tempest in a teapot and I see no reason to change anything.

 

[OverThinkMuch]

As an IT manager, I can tell you that if they plan to fix it by 2/22, they will probably not have it working properly until at least 2 months later!

I'm not yet willing to admit you're right... but I suspect that's only a matter of time. I'm pretty sure they won't fix it before the end of January.

What does it say about security that Vanguard hasn't fixed this visible and obvious problem? Everything else they're doing is opaque. And on their security page, this is one of their top 2 ways of securing people's accounts!
https://investor.vanguard.com/security-center

 

[OverThinkMuch]

I was a fan of Vanguard for at least 20 years, but now they're just another brokerage to me. For a long time I mentioned their unique ownership structure to others... but that article points out the rights owners have that I don't. Do I vote for the board? No. Do I help decide objectives for the company or new funds? Also no. They keep me out of the loop from all information and decisions... that's not ownership.

Decades ago Vanguard championed and lead the way on lower expense ratios. Now they're bringing up the rear - they were last to lower stock/ETF transaction fees to $0/trade. They spun it the same way they did before, fooling me - but Schwab initiated it. Imagine that - Vanguard bringing up the rear on saving customers money. Similarly, Fidelity is trying a zero fee mutual fund - and Vanguard didn't even try. I can get low cost stock funds from Vanguard, Schwab or iShares... all for $0/trade.

I probably see the Vanguard website slowdown more than most people, because I've been closing many of my call options recently. I click "sell" on the first screen, and provide a limit price. The next screen confirms it, and finally the status page shows up. But these screens are slower now than in 2021, and much slower than 2020. Somewhere in the 5-10 second range, not something I can just ignore. And it's not my connection, either - I can watch YouTube without slowdowns in another tab, while waiting for Vanguard to load the next screen. Considering I need to make a number of offers before my options sell, it's especially slow and painful.

 

[SecondCor521]

I probably see the Vanguard website slowdown more than most people, because I've been closing many of my call options recently. I click "sell" on the first screen, and provide a limit price. The next screen confirms it, and finally the status page shows up. But these screens are slower now than in 2021, and much slower than 2020. Somewhere in the 5-10 second range, not something I can just ignore. And it's not my connection, either - I can watch YouTube without slowdowns in another tab, while waiting for Vanguard to load the next screen. Considering I need to make a number of offers before my options sell, it's especially slow and painful.

It has been my observation that Vanguard likes to just hold assets. They seem to passively try to dissatisfy customers who are traders, because they don't want the hassle. My guess is that they may be aware of your slowdown issue, but they probably put low or even negative priority on fixing that issue. For a company that wants your holding period to be years or decades, 5 or 10 seconds, even if it's on multiple screens and for multiple transactions, is nothing.

Not saying right or wrong or good or bad, just that's how they appear to behave.

 

[Lstansbury]

I'm 6 weesk into pulling money out of my Vangaurd employer 401K and putting into a Vanguard IRA.

6 freakin' weeks and I can't tell you how many phone calls and reps spoken to, along with almost $100 in fax and overnight fees of documents. I can attest to everything in the Seeking Alpha article. One of the biggest problems has been a Dodge and Cox stock fund that can't just land in the new IRA account that Vanguard is supposed to create for me. It has to go into a brokerage, as mentioned in the article. (aaahhh!!!)

I have $100K in money in transit, -- its out of my employer account and hasn't landed anywhere new yet -- like the IRA where it is supposed to go. I'll be on the phone again Monday morning.

One time last year I did get a magically trained rep who managed to get a $100k over to Fideilty. That was after several phone calls and having a rep (previous to her)... read to me the section of my employer plan that said I couldn't roll money out?? Except he never could find the section. And I read to him over the phone that section that covered how I COULD roll money out.

Thank god for the one lady who was trained and made it happen in literally 5 minutes.

This time I only capitulated and rolled money out of my Employer plan into a Vangaurd IRA because the phone reps kept telling me -- "You are rolling into a Vanguard IRA, right? Otherwise, I don't know.....it could take a while..."

As soon as the current roll lands somewhere at Vangaurd I can see online, I'm initiating a trustee-to-trustee roll into Fidelity because Fidelity reps literally get on the phone with the Vanguard reps and help make the rollovers happen.

 

[RetMD21]

I have a lot of VTSAX non-covered shares pre 2012. I sell specID using my records. What would a conversion do to managing the basis? Sounds like more work.

Since 2013, I've been buying VTI. So I have both. I'll probably just stay the course for now.

The conversion would complicate things. I have fractional shares in my mutual fund account and the share prices differ. It seems like a headache.

 

[JoeWras]

The conversion would complicate things. I have fractional shares in my mutual fund account and the share prices differ. It seems like a headache.

Yeah, thanks. I'm gonna let those VTSAX ride as is. I don't need more headaches.

 

[RunningBum]

I have a lot of VTSAX non-covered shares pre 2012. I sell specID using my records. What would a conversion do to managing the basis? Sounds like more work.

Since 2013, I've been buying VTI. So I have both. I'll probably just stay the course for now.

Good for you! I wasn't wise enough to track my own holdings and I had a 2009 sale using avg cost so I'm stuck with it for those shares. Most were in the 30s anyway, but I did buy a chunk at $23.36 in 2008 which would be nice to treat separately. Oh well.

Yeah, I wouldn't convert those non-covered shares, but if you decided to leave VG and had to convert them I don't think the math would be too hard.

 

[RetMD21]

This time I only capitulated and rolled money out of my Employer plan into a Vangaurd IRA because the phone reps kept telling me -- "You are rolling into a Vanguard IRA, right? Otherwise, I don't know.....it could take a while..."

so before you capitulated were you trying to transfer from the employer plan to a non-IRA.I think I must be missing something

 

[JoeWras]

Good for you! I wasn't wise enough to track my own holdings and I had a 2009 sale using avg cost so I'm stuck with it for those shares. Most were in the 30s anyway, but I did buy a chunk at $23.36 in 2008 which would be nice to treat separately. Oh well.

Yeah, I wouldn't convert those non-covered shares, but if you decided to leave VG and had to convert them I don't think the math would be too hard.

Yeah, if I felt compelled to leave VG, I would just modify my spreadsheet. It is all in a spreadsheet already, so theoretically it shouldn't be too difficult.

I don't feel compelled to leave yet. I've xferred some retirement to Fidelity, and we're partly living on distributions, so my "not-quite-last" straw is that no new money is going into VG and we're actually slowly drawing it down via charitable xfers out and sweeping away distributions.

 

[RetMD21]

Yeah, if I felt compelled to leave VG, I would just modify my spreadsheet. It is all in a spreadsheet already, so theoretically it shouldn't be too difficult.

Any sale of VTI post conversion would involve 2 lots of VTSAX to adjust for fractional shares and the non alignment of share prices. I guess depending on the amounts you are dealing with you could just disregard the fraction. It seems like too much effort to me.

 

[JoeWras]

Any sale of VTI post conversion would involve 2 lots of VTSAX to adjust for fractional shares and the non alignment of share prices. I guess depending on the amounts you are dealing with you could just disregard the fraction. It seems like too much effort to me.

Yeah, it's when reality meets theory.

 

[retired1]

Yes Vanguard is unnecessarily making it difficult. I'm trying slowly drift away from Vanguard. For instance, Yesterday I tried to make a short Buy on Vanguard app and it kept asking me for my password even though I was already logged in. I had to go to website instead.
In comparison, Fidelity and Schwab systems seem to be more user friendly. I don't like Schwab charging fee for moving IRA money out to another brokerage. Fidelity has been BEST for me both on the app and website as well as customer service.

 

[aja8888]

Yes Vanguard is unnecessarily making it difficult. I'm trying slowly drift away from Vanguard. For instance, Yesterday I tried to make a short Buy on Vanguard app and it kept asking me for my password even though I was already logged in. I had to go to website instead.
In comparison, Fidelity and Schwab systems seem to be more user friendly. I don't like Schwab charging fee for moving IRA money out to another brokerage. Fidelity has been BEST for me both on the app and website as well as customer service.

This fee from Schwab must be new as I moved all my Vanguard IRA and brokerage equities and funds to them 2 years ago and was not charged anything.

 

[USGrant1962]

I just had my first case of bad customer service at Vanguard. I'm agent for my mom's accounts and we turned off her automated RMD in 2020 due to the Covid RMD suspension. Then we did a manual RMD in 2021 due to uncertainty of further regulations. Her RMDs were previously going to her Vanguard MM.

In trying to turn automated RMD back on, it offers no option for distributing to her Vanguard non-retirement account, even though that option is all over the instructions. It only offers "calculate and distribute to your bank account" and "calculate only". So I sent a secure message to CS and get basically a canned response back that says I can select to distribute to her bank or Vanguard account. No!

I just responded reiterating the problem, we'll see...

Oh, and their secure messaging function doesn't seem to have underline or bold functionality so I had to YELL to point out what I needed to point out.

 

[aja8888]

I just had my first case of bad customer service at Vanguard. I'm agent for my mom's accounts and we turned off her automated RMD in 2020 due to the Covid RMD suspension. Then we did a manual RMD in 2021 due to uncertainty of further regulations. Her RMDs were previously going to her Vanguard MM.

In trying to turn automated RMD back on, it offers no option for distributing to her Vanguard non-retirement account, even though that option is all over the instructions. It only offers "calculate and distribute to your bank account" and "calculate only". So I sent a secure message to CS and get basically a canned response back that says I can select to distribute to her bank or Vanguard account. No!

I just responded reiterating the problem, we'll see...

Oh, and their secure messaging function doesn't seem to have underline or bold functionality so I had to YELL to point out what I needed to point out.

As noted in my post above, I left VG two years ago based on similar stuff. I had requested a check to be mailed to me from them for my RMD (Solo 401K account) and I was told that was not possible. The RMD had to be distributed into my brokerage account. Even the rep I spoke with agreed that was odd. It was so odd and unbelievable, I transferred all my accounts to Schwab.

 

[tothemoon]

i've personally never had problems with vanguard. i had an old school mutual fund account, so i logged in once a year to make 1 trade into my IRA and that was it.

then they started nagging me over and over about transitioning to a brokerage account. so i did....to fidelity. sign up was 2 minutes and all funds transferred over in 2 days. sold my vanguard funds (free to sell) and replaced them with ETFs.

 

[jazz4cash]

This fee from Schwab must be new as I moved all my Vanguard IRA and brokerage equities and funds to them 2 years ago and was not charged anything.

I think the fee was for moving funds out of Schwab. My local b try broker did the same to me. Fidelity reimbursed the fee but I had to ask.

 

[Souschef]

I think the fee was for moving funds out of Schwab. My local b try broker did the same to me. Fidelity reimbursed the fee but I had to ask.

$
Same here. When MS tried to charge me $175 to maintain my account, I said goodbye and transferred my holdings to Fido. The also reimbursed me.

 

[Perryinva]

Worst refi I ever had was Wells Fargo. The paperwork requests were ridiculous. I’ve refinanced at least 8 times over the many years, and None ever were as stupidly mindless as WFMC. I had to prove to them that a paid off rental property had no HOA and that the $250/yr Homeowners Insurance Policy on it was paid, well before it was due. Cash assets (where a good lart of out income comes from while we do Roth conversions) does not count. Things like that. And the mortgage on this and the last house for many years were with WF. NEVER again.

 

[RetiredHappy]

When you move your accounts out to another brokerage, remember to ask if they have promo for getting a bonus for transferring into the brokerage. Both Schwab and Fidelity have promos like that. We received $6K for the transfer into Fidelity.

 

[rkser]

Another frustrating experience at Vanguard -

My Flagship Select Rep did not show up for the appointment & stood me up. This is not the first time he did that.

I am gradually moving my accounts to Fidelity & Schwab, both have local offices in our town. I am hoping for better customer service.

Vanguard has become a disappointing experience, and are driving out long standing loyal customers. They just do not care anymore as to show up for a prior scheduled appointment. They know they are the largest Broker in the world & two investors are coming in vs one leaving them.

Sad state of affairs....

 

[foxfirev5]

I just had my first case of bad customer service at Vanguard. I'm agent for my mom's accounts and we turned off her automated RMD in 2020 due to the Covid RMD suspension. Then we did a manual RMD in 2021 due to uncertainty of further regulations. Her RMDs were previously going to her Vanguard MM.

In trying to turn automated RMD back on, it offers no option for distributing to her Vanguard non-retirement account, even though that option is all over the instructions. It only offers "calculate and distribute to your bank account" and "calculate only". So I sent a secure message to CS and get basically a canned response back that says I can select to distribute to her bank or Vanguard account. No!

I just responded reiterating the problem, we'll see...

Oh, and their secure messaging function doesn't seem to have underline or bold functionality so I had to YELL to point out what I needed to point out.

Yes indeed. I've never had a problem with them until I needed them.

 

[rkser]

When you move your accounts out to another brokerage, remember to ask if they have promo for getting a bonus for transferring into the brokerage. Both Schwab and Fidelity have promos like that. We received $6K for the transfer into Fidelity.

Was the promo of $6k a recent event at Fidelity or in years past ?.

I wonder how much money needs to be transferred for a promo at Fidelity ?

 

[tulak]

Not related to Vanguard, but I called Fidelity twice, yesterday and today, in different divisions (retirement and retail) and both of my calls started with an investment advisor.

I don’t know if this happens to everyone, or if I passed some sort of threshold, but both asked me if I’ve ever talked with a financial advisor asked questions about my investing style, etc. One of them tried to figure out how much I had in accounts outside of Fidelity (lol).

Neither were pushy and after I told them I wasn’t interested, we moved on to why I called. Except for today’s call (retail) he had to transfer me to a different group, so my call was initially routed to the financial advisors group.

I guess they need to make their money somehow.