When Is A Retiree Considered Wealthy?

I am like you. I grew up in at best a lower middle class family. I remember the early 70’s. My Dad getting laid off work. Funds were scarce. I remember the fear as a kid of not having money.
My parents taught me to save, but also do my best. I took some big risks in life. I wrote a check amounting to most of my savings to start a business at 32. It could have been a disaster, but it wasn’t. I ended earning millions from that risk.
I feel I lived the American Dream. By the scale shown, we are considered wealthy. I am proud of that. I don’t flaunt it, but don’t hide it either. There’s nothing wrong with wealth despite what some would have you believe. My now dead parents would be very proud of what I have done. We live well and our charities (we have no kids) will be better off when it’s our time to pass.


When I turned 10 years old, an uncle living far away mailed a letter to my parents saying he was going to give me $10 as a gift.

I never got that money -- the guy liked to gamble but that's another story.

For a few years, I believed I was going to get that money so I counted that as part of my net worth.

I was actually collecting Buffalo nickels and other coins which were unusually old. I think I had a couple of pennies from before 1950, maybe even before WWII.

I don't know what happened to those coins.

Didn't get a regular allowance or recall getting cash as gifts. Usually things like socks or practical things.

First job I got as a paper route, I don't even recall how much I earned, it was only during the summer as my parents wouldn't let me keep the job when school started.

I enjoyed the job though it was a pain to go collecting the subscriptions. Occasionally I got a nice tip because some customers requested that I drop the paper as close to the front door as possible, which I did.

Yeah never dreamed having a lot money -- probably didn't even think of it until maybe the late '90s, when I got stock options and those options actually became worth some real money.

Some of my co-workers were exercising those options in the early 2000s and buying Mercedes convertibles. I didn't have a conscious LBYM approach, just probably internalized the penny-pinching approach of my parents, my father in particular.

I had an okay car, never really thought about getting a flashy car, which I still haven't owned. I've leased some nice cars though but not something which would turn heads.

At some point when I was still working, I read that each $10k you save instead of spending more on things like cars would compound over 20 years to so much more in future value.

Definitely growing up in modest financial circumstances gives you a different POV on things like ostentatious spending.
 
I am like you. I grew up in at best a lower middle class family. I remember the early 70’s. My Dad getting laid off work. Funds were scarce. I remember the fear as a kid of not having money.
My parents taught me to save, but also do my best. I took some big risks in life. I wrote a check amounting to most of my savings to start a business at 32. It could have been a disaster, but it wasn’t. I ended earning millions from that risk.
I feel I lived the American Dream. By the scale shown, we are considered wealthy. I am proud of that. I don’t flaunt it, but don’t hide it either. There’s nothing wrong with wealth despite what some would have you believe. My now dead parents would be very proud of what I have done. We live well and our charities (we have no kids) will be better off when it’s our time to pass.

I grew up in a middle class west London (UK) home, Mum did not work till later in life. They managed to put my 2 sisters and myself through "Private " School (Called Public in the UK, the opposite of the USA). They did have a second home in Malta where they spent their holidays, but I would hardly say they were rich. It was not them who taught me about money, it was my Sister GRHS, it was with her tutorage that I came up with and published my 10 Rules for retiring early, with one extra as a bonus.

1. "Pay yourself first" (I invented this phrase in the late 1980's) before Suzie Orman did, she just made a ton of money from it, the story of my life) I do agree with most of her ideas. This means save for retirement first, then spend. We both put MAX into our 401K funds a long as we were eligible working in the USA, from 1988 onwards. My recommendation is 30% of income where possible. This is what we did, only tapping it for large bills like, home and auto insurance, and house taxes.

2. "Make goals and honor them" We made a commitment towards early retirement early in our relationship. Basically a year after we were married, we both had similar goals in this area. It is important to make goals and exceed hem where possible.

3. Save your "Not Money", do not waste it. "Not Money" (I should trademark the phrase, but It was my sister's invention) is money you earn or make that is not part of your daily routine. for example. a Bonus is Not Money, If you have a hobby that is not your major source of income, the profits are Not Money, if you win a lottery, that is Not Money, If you sell your lawn mower at a garage sale, that is Not Money, A Tax REfund in Not Money. We either put ours into our home by reducing mortgage payments or into our retirement nest egg.

4. "Live within Your Means" Simply put do not spend more than you earn.

5. "Do NOT Live off Credit" We do not care what a credit card's interest rate is, we NEVER have to use it. PAY IT OFF at the end of the month... PERIOD! We only have 2 credit cards, an AT&T Universal MasterCard Rewards and a Delta Skymiles Rewards Amex. The reasons I am sure are obvious. By the way we use them for everything, groceries (even $5.00 dollars worth) ANYTHING we can pay by credit we do NO EXCEPTION, we simply pay it off every month. In all our lives we have NEVER been delinquent on any bill at all. If we do not have the money we do not spend it. Simple, but effective.

6. "Capitalize in Your Own Situation" All of us are different, we all have different ways of earning money. In my case, I was paid 85% salary 15% commission, I traveled extensively and my expenses were covered at actual. I used to always use my own credit card for expenses. Why let the company get the credit rating? I paid all my expenses from my salary, when the expense check came it went into my Nest Egg. The only time we touched the Nest Egg was as mentioned earlier for large bills. But in General this was one the main ways I used to save. Some people use Direct Deposit, I used my expense money. Oh and by the way we have an excellent credit rating to this day.

7. "Do Not Go Without" Simply buy wisely and save for larger luxuries. I have had many Sports cars (My passion as a younger man) and toys in my time. I never borrowed to get them. I always had a "Car Money" account for the big toy car, when I sold it, the account was revived again. The only time we got any form of long term credit was when a vendor offered a 1 or 2 years same as cash (No Interest). Then we paid it off on the due date. An example of these types of spending were, a 55" Big Screen TV ($3700), A solid wood Bedroom Suite (~$3000) and so on. All other major items, and there were many, were purchased with a credit card and paid off in full at the end of the month. We purchased them just after the invoice from the credit card company so we got the full month to pay.

8. "Let the Government Help" This works as part of Rule 6. As a commissioned sales person, I was able to write off my company car, home office and other business expenses that were solely used for business. As I worked mostly from home, and had a private car for personal use, this was a no brainer. I must disagree with Suzie Orman on this one. I leased my cars that I used for work for as long as I can remember, and they were good ones too. Lexus 400, Acura Legend, Audi S4 etc. All Brand New. They provided me with an excellent source of deductions. As I only did about 10,000 miles per year, I could always sell the car privately just before the end of the lease (about 3 months) and usually make more than enough to pay off the lease early.

9. "Relax Take a Vacation" We always put aside money to relax, we took nice vacations, just not EXPENSIVE ones. We did however go to Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, Korea, Indonesia (Bali), Singapore, Thailand and Europe. We took some Cruises. We just budgeted carefully. Again, we NEVER went without.

10. "Preserve Your Capital, Sleep at Night" This is more applicable as you get closer to retirement. I find it a lot harder to make money once it is lost or spent as opposed to preserving it in the first place. Almost anyone can save a little. We just settled for less interest than the risky investments.

11. "Read The Millionaire Next Door" If I was to choose a publication, it would be this one. As all books, it exaggerates the extremes. However, if you drive gown the middle of the road, so to speak, it will guide you to retirement. I would say it is a must read along with Bernstein's "Four Pillars of Investing"
 
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1. "Pay yourself first" (I invented this phrase in the late 1980's) before Suzie Orman did, she just made a ton of money from it, the story of my life) I do agree with most of her ideas. This means save for retirement first, then spend. We both put MAX into our 401K funds a long as we were eligible working in the USA, from 1988 onwards. My recommendation is 30% of income where possible. This is what we did, only tapping it for large bills like, home and auto insurance, and house taxes.
I know said tongue in cheek but I think George S. Clason said it in 'The Richest Man in Babylon' in 1926 and was probably stated in other words before then. And I loved your two book recommendations. MND to espouse LBYM and not be that 'Big Hat, No Cattle' person and The Four Pillars which is the book that really did it for me.
 
When Money Magazine was a print publication, I faithfully subscribed to it from 1980 through 2017. I used their "One Family Finances" feature to compare to my financial progress along the way, to see how I was doing in terms of what the Money experts said was being done right, and what areas needed to improve. I found that health no so much from a "wealth" perspective but from a "how do I continue to save and invest wisely, what do I need to correct, and what pitfalls to avoid?" That more detailed comparison, rather than just "numbers", I found very useful over those years.
 
When Money Magazine was a print publication, I faithfully subscribed to it from 1980 through 2017. I used their "One Family Finances" feature to compare to my financial progress along the way, to see how I was doing in terms of what the Money experts said was being done right, and what areas needed to improve. I found that health no so much from a "wealth" perspective but from a "how do I continue to save and invest wisely, what do I need to correct, and what pitfalls to avoid?" That more detailed comparison, rather than just "numbers", I found very useful over those years.

I stayed with MM until they went net only. I routinely checked my MM "status" to see that I was still good to go (or stay) in the FIRE game. Kinda miss the financial porn magazines.

Only one I still get is Kiplingers and I'm quitting as soon as subscription runs out. They have changed. I'll leave it at that.
 
When Money Magazine was a print publication, I faithfully subscribed to it from 1980 through 2017. I used their "One Family Finances" feature to compare to my financial progress along the way, to see how I was doing in terms of what the Money experts said was being done right, and what areas needed to improve. I found that health no so much from a "wealth" perspective but from a "how do I continue to save and invest wisely, what do I need to correct, and what pitfalls to avoid?" That more detailed comparison, rather than just "numbers", I found very useful over those years.

Me too. They did an article on my retirement early strategy many moons ago also. I have it somewhere.
 
I stayed with MM until they went net only. I routinely checked my MM "status" to see that I was still good to go (or stay) in the FIRE game. Kinda miss the financial porn magazines.



Only one I still get is Kiplingers and I'm quitting as soon as subscription runs out. They have changed. I'll leave it at that.
I think Kiplinger is only one left. I still take it but agree it has changed.

I did take Money the longest but also Smart Money. Forbes is more of a business magazine but also drastically changed and not for the better. Barron's hanging tough mostly.

But the early education on retail personal finance was valuable.
 
MM was a great resource for me for many years. I have to give that publication a lot of credit for where I am today. On another note, I have a relative who flies for flex jet. He says that generally their clients have a base net worth of 10M.
 
99th Percentile - Super Wealthy $16,700,000
95th Percentile - Wealthy $3,200,000
90th Percentile - Well Off $1,900,000
50th Percentile - "Middle Class" $281,000
20th Percentile - Poor $10,000
Less than 20th Percentile - Insolvent

This seems to be consistent with others things I have seen.


I thought it seemed high to what I have seen.

Although, the numbers do vary widely.

Here's my first hit. "Additionally, statistics show that the top 2% of the United States population has a net worth of about $2.4 million. On the other hand, the top 5% wealthiest Americans have a net worth of just over $1 million."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/know-im-rich-140000452.html


The top 5% had $1,030,000.
https://www.kiplinger.com/personal-finance/605075/are-you-rich


12.9 million families are in this top decile, (top 10%) and a net worth of $1.22 million is the threshold to join.4
https://financebuzz.com/us-net-worth-statistics


The top 5% bracket for net worth in the U.S. is $2,584,130. The top 5% income earners make $342,987 a year.
https://www.newtraderu.com/2022/10/18/net-worth-and-income-of-the-top-20-10-5-1-in-america-u-s/
I guess you can find the number you want! I wanted to be in the top 5%, so I made it ;-)
 
I thought it seemed high to what I have seen.

Although, the numbers do vary widely.

Here's my first hit. "Additionally, statistics show that the top 2% of the United States population has a net worth of about $2.4 million. On the other hand, the top 5% wealthiest Americans have a net worth of just over $1 million."
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/know-im-rich-140000452.html


The top 5% had $1,030,000.
https://www.kiplinger.com/personal-finance/605075/are-you-rich


12.9 million families are in this top decile, (top 10%) and a net worth of $1.22 million is the threshold to join.4
https://financebuzz.com/us-net-worth-statistics


The top 5% bracket for net worth in the U.S. is $2,584,130. The top 5% income earners make $342,987 a year.
https://www.newtraderu.com/2022/10/18/net-worth-and-income-of-the-top-20-10-5-1-in-america-u-s/
I guess you can find the number you want! I wanted to be in the top 5%, so I made it ;-)
The source varies. One of your links was a Schwab wealth survey. I think the numbers quoted in the OP are Fed Reserve survey numbers.
 
I disagree with his numbers. I can't be wealthy but I can live on my pension & save most of my SSA. Wealthy has to be at least 5m Screenshot_20230627-213223.jpg
 
I guess that I too still question the numbers for "wealthy." It's not that I question the numbers for the various percentiles. But to me, "wealthy" implies a level of, if not "big spending", then at least the ability to spend big all the time. I don't think $3.2M gives that discretion though I've been wrong before so YMMV.
 
There's always someone richer, so why worry? I worked hard and smart to be in the upper 5%. I am happy (and lucky) to have obtained my goal. It sure didn't come from investing in the market. Keep reaching for the stars; if I can do it, anyone can.
 
The numbers seem high because they represent the 65+ age category which is most likely the wealthiest group. If you use figures based on the entire US population they would skew far lower.
 
A few observations...

  • It is pointless to disagree with the numbers. They are what they are. Besides, what you are really disagreeing with are the labels he put on the percentiles.
  • Comparing yourself to the table is also pointless. You have specific needs/goals/wants and whether you feel "wealthy" (or not) is all relative to what you spend and everyone has different spending needs/habits.
  • One thing that is missing from all these analyses is the net present value of a Social Security annuity income stream. Obviously this differs with age and benefit amount but I estimate for my wife and I this is worth about $1.1 million to us. That is, we would need an additional $1.1 million in assets earning a risk-free return to generate an equivalent after-tax income stream over the remainder of our lives. Might I have overestimated that based on my assumptions? Sure, but the point is that there is tangible present value to that income stream.
:popcorn:
 
I consider being able to be retired comfortably and live life the way you want as being wealthy. Certainly my Pension and the promised Social Security are a part of that above Net Worth.
 
I consider being able to be retired comfortably and live life the way you want as being wealthy. Certainly my Pension and the promised Social Security are a part of that above Net Worth.

I would not call SS (No Pension for us :() part of our net worth either. I would call it Gravy as every little bit helps.
 
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I would not call SS (No Pension for us :() part of our net worth. I would call it Gravy as every little bit helps.

I wasn't I was saying it helps me live the way I want to

"Certainly my Pension and the promised Social Security are a part of that above Net Worth."
 
I would not call SS (No Pension for us :() part of our net worth.
That's fine, but by that logic anyone who purchases a traditional annuity* in a lump sum from their assets immediately sees a drop in their net worth equivalent to the amount "invested" in the annuity. Maybe annuities/pensions/Social Security are not technically part of one's net worth but the all have a net present value that acts like an asset.

(*Yes, I know there are types of annuities where there may be a payout to beneficiaries at the end.)
 
What it takes to own a private jet or yacht: probably >$50M maybe a whole lot more these days. I remember when a Gulfstream was $5M.

What it takes to regularly charter private jets or rent yachts (which is more common): less, but probably still well >>$10M.

2 points:

1- being able to buy a jet or yacht is just the beginning…maintaining these toys is extremely expensive.

2- private jets cost about 2k-10k per hour depending on the plane size. We are above that 99Th% and have never done this. We only occasionally fly business and only on long international flights if the price isn’t greater than 3x coach. I’d need about 50mm before I started flying private. But, I am very conservative in my spending.
 
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2 points:

1- being able to buy a jet or yacht is just the beginning…maintaining these toys is extremely expensive.

2- private jets cost about 2k-10k per hour depending on the plane size. We are above that 99Th% and have never done this. We only occasionally fly business and only on long international flights if the price isn’t greater than 3x coach. I’d need about 50mm before I started flying private. But, I am very conservative in my spending.

1- Good point on the cost of the toys - this is how a lot of celebs go broke - they can "afford" the purchase but don't realize the real cost is in the staff/maintenance/upkeep/etc. This is also why a lot of high profile folks keep working til they keel over... would be tough to go back to being a regular schlub and the lifestyle costs are epic and ongoing .

2- The only folks I know who regularly fly private are (A) Someone else is picking up the tab (ex. CEO's), (B) Own (very successful) businesses where at least the cost is a write-off and they see it as a tool to optimize their time, hence profit, and (C) Folks w/ at least +$250 million NW and even then some of them just won't part with the coin.

Notice, the keyword is "regularly". Sure, there's the occasional boy's/girl's bachelor/bachelorette outing to Vegas where everybody chips in for a plane the size of a tuna can - never done that myself, only seen on Insta-Tok.

I have flown private jets on someone else's dime a few times - and gotta say, it is sweet to get where you need to go in comfort while everyone else is stuck back at the departure gate (more often than not I'm the one still stuck at the departure gate).
 
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