When to sue and when to just let go?

[Skoach]

I had a similar situation with my DW. Multi-state family owned business was clearly weeding out the +50 crowd.

So when my wife was put on a performance plan after 25 years with a spotless record our radars went off. Contacted a lawyer (luckily for us friend has own firm and had a employment lawyer on staff) and was told to preserve and document everything in preparation for what we knew was coming.

6 months later she was told she was being let go immediately with 2 weeks of severance. She knew not to agree to anything and the lawyer took over.

Being a long term employee, my wife knew of age discrimination law suits being brought in 2 other states. The lawyer took this and ran. 3 months later we had a severance offer of 9 months pay and benefits + a job search and education credit. After discussion with lawyer we took that offer. 2 days later lawyer told us the final deal was upped to a full year

Final legal bill was about a month of the settlement and in my opinion worth every penny. I’m sure I got a bit of a discount due to being a friend of the principal of the firm but the final bit of negotiation paid the entire bill plus some.

One a lawyer is involved or mentioned your days are over at that employer, in my opinion. Too much ill will on both sides to overcome. So it becomes a function of finding a solution you can live with.

As my friend reminded me several times, it is not a court of justice, it is a court of law.

 

[travelover]

I've been there, done that. Fortunately for me, I was in a big Mega and I still had "friends" in another division and I was able to escape laterally. In your case, you have been effectively fired. My advice is to move on and look for another job, though with your wife still working, you may well have enough to retire now.

 

[SAinMinn]

Many, MANY thanks for all the thoughtful replies. It's great (?!) to know others have gone down this road. I don't feel so isolated. Every post has given me something to think about. I've read each reply at least three times. I appreciate so many taking the time.

Yes, it's political. It's not about me. It's about them. The responses here have helped me realize this, or maybe I knew it all along and I just needed some confirmation.

I really appreciate some of the later posts about my and my wife's financial condition. I'm feeling better about saying my wife and I are, basically, at FIRE. At least we have attained the "FI" part of it. Truth be told, I likely can find some part-time consulting work at a pretty good rate. Health insurance is my worry but I likely just need to get over it and hope for the best.

Yeah, I think moving on likely is the best option, though I do not see many downsides to letting them fire me. That way, I can keep my options open lawsuit-wise. I can't share a lot of details in this post ... but suffice to say some in the community will be appalled at how I've been treated once they learn details, and quite frankly I might get work out of that. And I will share details about any firing because I need to protect my reputation. Being fired without having a single performance review, at any time, is just terrible, unprofessional form. Looking back, the writing has been on the wall pretty much since the day I started that a certain faction wanted me gone. And now, basically, they are in control. That's how it rolls.

Ah well. A financial silver lining: Zoom is a big part of my job and has been from day one. So I saw the value in the company early on and bought 100 shares of Zoom at $62 a share. It's boomed in the pandemic, of course. I never would've bought the stock without having this job. So that's some (financial) rationalization at least.

Markola, thanks I'll PM you; I appreciate the offer. Good question on the Rule of 55. Unfortunately I turn 54 this calendar year and termination likely would be this calendar year, so the Rule of 55 probably is not going to work unless I negotiated a termination in 2022, which I do not feel inclined do. I do have 140K in that employer's 403(b), which is nice ... but truth be told I think I'd want to get the money out of there anyway because it's a high-fee Mass Mutual account and I'd feel better having it in my Vanguard account. I have enough saved in an after-tax brokerage account to get me to 59.5, as long as my wife keeps working with a job with insurance.

Anyway ... thanks everybody.

 

[mystang52]

1) Start saving hard evidence (e.g., prints of emails) off site.
2) Update your resume and start your job search now.
3) In the interim, try outwardly playing their game and being a good soldier.
4) Hard tough-love fact: No matter how much your clients like you, if your employer terminates you it won't make any difference.
5) If you do get terminated, then get an attorney. It's not stressful - you'd already be terminated, so no job stress of course. The attorney does all of the stressful "dirty work." More often than not these matters are ultimately referred to arbitration or mediation in an attempt ro work out an out of court resolution.

 

[Brat]

Back in the day, I enforced the Age Discrimination in Employment Act. If memory serves the Federal law only applies to employers of a certain size. In my state, state law picks up the slack.

I agree with those who recommend gathering up all documentation about your employment record. Also, I recommend you enrich your contact list. Keep all of this AT HOME out of the reach of your employer. While in many states you can request a copy of your personnel file I wouldn't do that just yet, you can do that on your last day of employment (maybe have a draft request ready should the need arise).

Start working your contact list and network like crazy for another job. Be discrete so that it doesn't get back to your employer. Start sewing your parachute.

Talk to an employment lawyer. Federal law requires mediation so you can't just file in court immediately. The Feds have delegated enforcement to some states, your lawyer can advise.

Winning an ADEA case isn't easy short of a pattern and practice situation. That is why I strongly recommend finding another job before you are let go.

 

[G8tr]

One thing that might give you some comfort is that your organization's reputation might already be taking a hit due to its current management. I'm sure you work in a small community where word gets around.

Good people don't leave bad companies, they leave bad management.

 

[travelover]

.............
3) In the interim, try outwardly playing their game and being a good soldier. .........

I think that ship has already sailed . From the OP:

I have written a terse letter to the top manager making it pretty clear I'm watching them closely for potential discrimination. 10 days ago, I requested a follow-up meeting and that request has gone unanswered.

 

[kjpliny]

I would wait to get "excessed", that way you should qualify for unemployment at the very least. Suing your employer probably won't be successful. They can cease any position they want.

The $1.7M puts you in a good place with less than 10 years to go for early SS. Markets are frothy so if you have a high percentage in stocks, lose your job and the market corrects by a lot (not saying it will), that could impact you emotionally. Be prepared for anything.

The one thing that would concern me is the healthcare and the spouse's employment. If you both found yourselves out of a job with no healthcare for an extended period of time, that would put a damper on your financial position. If she can keep working and you both will have healthcare, then you probably have nothing to worry about. If you're forced into "early retirement" by your employer, it's not your fault. Help out extra around the house and keep your eyes open for a decent employment opportunity. If nothing becomes available, at least you have some practice at the ER thing.

 

[CoolChange]

Just reiterating some of the best advice from above:

Talk to a good local employment lawyer as soon as you are able about your viable avenues at this point. They should be able to give you good advice and be willing to work with you on contingency if you have a strong enough case.

Start working your network now; a better position for you may be open right now. Regardless, get on the right people's radar.

Keep your chin up. You are in good shape regardless.

 

[brett]

Wait them out for a package.

Get some recommendations for a good lawyer who practices in the employment law area.

Do not tell your employer that you are consulting a lawyer. It will cause them to be more careful. Let their management make mistakes that will be in your favor when it comes to settling an wrongful dismissal.

Don't delude yourself. Your time with this employer is limited. It is poisoned and will never improve. Accept that and look for new horizons.

 

[Exchme]

If you've already sent a terse letter to a top manager and demanded a follow up meeting that went unanswered, I believe you are already gone. They just haven't maneuvered the pieces on the board to ensure they dot the i's and cross the t's yet. So it's time to start deciding what you want to do next. I think legal action is generally a waste of time and source of stress.

 

[travelover]

If you've already sent a terse letter to a top manager and demanded a follow up meeting that went unanswered, I believe you are already gone........

Bingo.

 

[HI Bill]

"Minnesota is an employment "at will" state. An employee can quit for any reason; an employer can fire any employee for any reason as long as that reason is not illegal, such as discrimination based on race, creed, color, sex, national origin, ancestry, religion, age, disability, sexual orientation or marital status." If your HR is at all savvy, they will find a way to oust you without infringing on age, or any of the other listed reasons. This would be a difficult battle to win. If you win, then what? A cash settlement? A job where you're not liked? In my small industry, one employee sued her employer (my employer), and won, but was essentially blacklisted from the industry. Great cost, little gain. Just my 2 cents as someone who has hired a lot of folks, and had to fire and lay off a few.

 

[Dd852]

It’s natural to have that voice in the back of your mind saying “I’ll sue” - it makes us feel we have power in a situation where we feel actually powerless. But if you feel stressed now, be prepared for that to really ratchet up if you do go to war with a mega Corp. By all means talk to a lawyer but the best thing for your stress levels, family happiness and future well being may be to simply negotiate the friendliest and simplest and most lucrative exit you can without going to war.

 

[armor99]

I have written a terse letter to the top manager making it pretty clear I'm watching them closely for potential discrimination. 10 days ago, I requested a follow-up meeting and that request has gone unanswered.
.

If you did that, then you are completely done. If you are not in a protected group (ageism is tough to prove.) you turned this situation completely confrontational (no way to put the genie back in that bottle). No companies management will tolerate being threatened like that. (And that is how they will take that, no matter how it was intended.)
If you are not in protected group.... and sometimes the “right” protected group, a company can fire you for just about any reason they choose. Even if the reason is non~sensical. I am really sorry this is happening to you. By writing that email you took away any possibility of compromise. (Although it’s sounds doubtful they would have anyway). They are going to let you go, the only question is how long at this point. I am truly sorry...

 

[Oz investor]

*** When to sue and when to just let go? ***

i have been blessed by the trend that my new replacement is normally vastly inferior and ends up being less cost effective is such businesses ( some were actually crippled by the replacement and may be totally extinct .. )

one was a 'newspaper ' ( advertorial rag ) that is now struggling as an online-only presence ( once an influential advertising revenue generator in a global mega-corp

while my income may or may not improve with the career shift , i don't have to bother with thoughts of remorse or revenge ( the good friends i made there remain good friends just their careers have changed also )

it will be interesting to see if the recent US election put the final nail in Mega-Corp's coffin

however weigh the consequences and rewards ( some businesses hate to see unfair dismissal suits on an employees CV ) and do what you think best ( for yourself )

PS keep an ear out for attempts to smear your reputation , that might be very juicy

 

[brett]

Saying that you will litigate is a very, very long way to finding a skilled lawyer, let alone one that will take it on a contingency basis.

And it is a much longer way to the end point. Will it be worth it.

Do not let emotion get in the way of a settlement that makes sense. This is a ultimately a business issue. Do not let your emotion or sense of betrayal get in the way.

Given your emotion, have an experienced lawyer advise you and do the negotiation.

I went T&M with my the lawyer I engaged to handle my termination agreement. Not only was is far more advantageous than others who went contingency, at the final stage of the negotiation the lawyer managed to have the value of his fee to me added to the settlement.

 

[Bryan Barnfellow]

I think as well that your time is likely limited at your present employer.

So, why not be a bit bold and offer to negotiate terms of your resignation. No one likes bad PR, including among internal audiences, and you could solve a problem for them in this way.

I think you reasonably might ask for several months severance, a good letter of recommendation, and perhaps staying on the organization's healthcare (perhaps with cost sharing) for some amount of time. You lose any chance for these things, of course, once you are fired.

-BB

 

[HarveyS]

I have to agree with Barnfellow's advice. You are as good as out now, so trying to make it easier for your employer may incentivize them to give you something in return. Consider a "work from home" for 6 months (that is, 6 month pay, stay on payroll, stay on benefits, yet have no contact with them, no objectives, etc.). That way you can job hunt while still employed.

 

[24601NoMore]

Best of luck, but having gone through similar things a couple of times (wrongful termination), I learned pretty quickly and painfully that "at will" employment is a very tough thing to beat in court. I even went so far as to consult with employment attorneys who basically told me the same thing..you REALLY need to be some protected class (and age is no longer much protection) to get anywhere..

Bottom line - as unfair as it may be, and as angry as it may make you, you have little chance of beating them. Best to look for another gig and get out while the getting is good, if the writing is on the wall as you seem to indicate it may be.

 

[G8tr]

I agree that a negotiated departure is better than being fired. Also, the only people who win in litigation are the lawyers. I strongly urge you to get on with your life and let go any feelings of anger, bitterness or revenge. Negative emotions cloud your judgement and make a clean break impossible. They can even screw up any new gig you land because your attention will not be 100% on being successful going forward.

Best of luck, but having gone through similar things a couple of times (wrongful termination), I learned pretty quickly and painfully that "at will" employment is a very tough thing to beat in court. I even went so far as to consult with employment attorneys who basically told me the same thing..you REALLY need to be some protected class (and age is no longer much protection) to get anywhere..

Bottom line - as unfair as it may be, and as angry as it may make you, you have little chance of beating them. Best to look for another gig and get out while the getting is good, if the writing is on the wall as you seem to indicate it may be.

 

[brett]

Put the thought of a litigation out of your mind. It does not work the way it does on television.

Like others have said prepare yourself for a job search/job change. Get into that mode.

Get the best termination package that you possibly can by the best means you see fit given the circumstances. This is business, not retribution.

Do not let emotion get in the the way of of your job search and interview process. The absolute worst thing you can do is be down in the mouth at any job interviews or WORSE....bad mouth your current employer. As a former hiring manager the one thing that disqualified any candidate was one who made negative comments about a then current or former employer. You want to bee seen as running to a new job, new opportunity NOT running away from your current job.

 

[Global Wizzo]

You might consider sitting down with the HR vP or higher. Let them know that it appears they want to eliminate you.basedon age or salary costs. See if they want to negotiate a package with 12-24 months paid health Good luck

 

[Rambler]

While it sounds like it might be constructive dismissal, your entity is also under “at-will” rules, and you are aware of it. Rather than fight thru another round, if it were me, I’d look for another job right now, then once you’ve found one you are comfortable doing, ask your boss why he or she couldn’t just come out and tell you to get lost, since it is apparent you are no longer valued. Then hand in your ID, keys, and computer, and just leave.

 

[imnontrad]

First contact the State Department of Labor and see if this is considered to be a discriminatory practice.
Second, if you do face this and choose to fight it, would you really want to work at a place that has this atmosphere?
Third, do you have skills that you could use to form your own business?
Fourth, could you float your resume and see what other organizations in your area would be interested in your experience?