Why I believe we are about to embark on a historic bull market run

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Since past performance is no guarantee of future results, it could also be that next 20 years of U.S. investing is like the last 20 years of Japan markets...
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Absolutely! However, until that trend becomes obvious, I'll stick with the long market history of slow, upward movement. :)

Sure. If you don't think you can time the market even in the face of these maniac conditions, buy-and-hold will work out a lot better than timing it wrong. Some people who are smarter than me did make good money when the dot-coms blew up, and the housing market collasped.

I still like to keep an open mind, and to people stating a thesis, instead of immediately dismissing it as impossible, I will ask how likely it is to happen, and look into other factors that will negate such theory.

PS. I did benefit from the housing bubble burst, when I helped my daughter buy her 1st home at less than 1/2 of what the previous owner paid.

Your statement contains a presumption that some people *can* time the market. Sure, everyone gets lucky now and then. The people that don't realize it's luck and think they have discovered a secret technique are the reasons Las Vegas exists.

I like keeping an open mind as well, but I'm no longer open-minded about gravity or heliocentricity. Sometimes things can be settled. See the other thread re: market timing that was just started. Regarding a near-term 2-5 year rise in the S&P which will include one-month jumps of 20% - has that ever happened before?
 
As I explain in that thread, my philosophy is that of reacting, rather than predicting.

I like to read predictions for recreation, but also to ask myself what would happen, how I should react if such predictions come true. The prognosticators are free to state their thinking. I will read and see how likely it can happen. It does not bother me that they do what they do.
 
Well

I feel you are analyzing my outlook on the market incorrectly. For one, those positions returned eight percent to my portfolio after tax to me on the investments made, compared to a negative market return over the same period. I am actually a very conservative investor, which allows me to safely take small, very aggressive positions at times when I feel a major move can occur. Being conservative in my investment style I am naturally very wary of over valuations and the damage that can cause to a portfolio.

Over the period of time I have been posting on this forum - 14 years I have not made a great many major moves but when I do I post them in the Stock Picking and Market Strategy. The headlines are quite a bit stronger than the actual investments in most cases because from initiation I have the thought what will prove me wrong? In the current case a change in FED market action would make me seriously reconsider. If the FED were to raise interest rates tomorrow or announce they were to reduce the balance sheet holdings below the September 2019 level, I would immediately sell the options for whatever I could get, but I see that as very low chance and the options as extremely high value, you would see that I think as proof I never knew what I was doing.

I analyze the data for myself and when the facts support a move I make it and post it here, if with the passage of time my theory or outlook for stocks changes, I will admit I must have been wrong and correct my error, typically going back to my conservative holding strategy. This certainly is no different that the FED since in September they said they would need to raise interest rates three times over the coming year and instead did the exact opposite. To merely hold on to an opinion when facts change is an incorrect method of analysis.

I would never go to 100% stocks and I am never in the future going to less than 25% stocks, no matter my level of confidence. History has shown at least 25% stocks is sufficient to endure inflation that may occur and at times valuations can get so low that 75% stocks is a relatively low risk proposition and that 50% is the target for a fairly valued market. In this I am very much in agreement with Benjamin Graham.

In the past 90 years there have been 3 occasions when the S&P 500 has gone up 40% and another 7 where the S&P 500 went up 30% or more. So that even if I am just blind randomly purchasing a one year call option expecting a 40% move that pays 125-1 when it has a 1 in 30 random chance of occurring is still a sound move, (not to mention an additional probability around 8% of making 2-3 times the initial investment, no matter what one believes of my passive investing theory and the force I think it is exerting on the market, my most recent investment is still a solid value play.

I am simply going by an 2018 post of yours which said you were selling all of your stocks that someone referenced.
 
I am simply going by an 2018 post of yours which said you were selling all of your stocks that someone referenced.

You couldn't read the remainder of my posts to see when I got back into the market a few months later - at a lower price and instead hold to one point in time as a determinate? I think that is incorrect.
 
So is RM's strategy similar to a "barbell" portfolio?

Similar but different in that I have selected the direction I think the market will go, barbell strategy from what I understand is to hold offsetting shorts or puts and calls and a conservative strategy for the bell and to make money on either large moves up or down. I am holding the relatively conservative and trying to capture perceived value on the index side in expectation of a market uptrend in the interim without risk to my portfolio if I am proved incorrect.
 
You couldn't read the remainder of my posts to see when I got back into the market a few months later - at a lower price and instead hold to one point in time as a determinate? I think that is incorrect.

Actually no because you think your knowledge is much greater than reality.
 
Running Man, did you see my post and Audrey’s of December 24th questioning your original premise about the percentage of passive funds in the market?

Important I think.
 
Running Man, did you see my post and Audrey’s of December 24th questioning your original premise about the percentage of passive funds in the market?

Important I think.

in 2004 the S&P 500 and most other indexes changed from market capitalization to free floating shares capitalization. In other words only shares that insiders do not hold are calculated in the market capitalization of the index. As a for instance 35% of all shares in Brown-Forman are held by insiders so the market capitalization of Brown-Forman in the S&P 500 is .65 Times Shares outstanding times market price. 30% of the shares of Walmart are held by insiders.
This is done so that index funds are able to buy shares of companies as needed as insiders are much slower to react to market prices.

Mike Green has 30-35 % calculated as the present penetration value of passive investments as a percentage of portfolios, and I am willing to accept his answer, others might prefer to agree with Vanguard that this is no issue, With 90% of all new flows into 401K's going into target date funds, according to Vanguard itself 60% of all 401K held in Vanguard hold a single asset - target date funds - a type of fund that did not exist until 2003 when the QDIA rule was implemented - Qualified Default Investment Alternative corporations with 401K's selected target date funds as the default option. These funds have gone from zero to 2.3 trillion in assets that is functionally 100% passive.

The result is overperformance for the S&P500:
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And stocks that are in multiple indexes are growing in market capitalization even faster :
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So I feel this move has already begun and with an accommodating FED is likely to continue to move up even faster as stated earlier much like the Nasdaq of 2000 or China in 2006.

At 15% of the market cap there are 6 market participants based on actively valuing companies for every cash only passive investor. At 50% you are down to one active for every passive investor and market return is reduced to a funds flow calculation as valuation is never even a consideration in passive investing, an 83% reduction of thoughtful valuation compared to the here's my dollar invest it in these 500 stocks. Already we are down to about 2-1 a 63% impact, in just the last decade, the results have been to the upside and I believe will continue even more vigorously for the next couple of years, as long as the FED continues to stay on it's present course, which it just stated it will be very slow to change.
 
Actually no because you think your knowledge is much greater than reality.
TFW you're at 0% equities, waiting for the big correction, and someone tell you that he thinks the market will explode.
 
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... At 15% of the market cap there are 6 market participants based on actively valuing companies for every cash only passive investor. At 50% you are down to one active for every passive investor and market return is reduced to a funds flow calculation as valuation is never even a consideration in passive investing, an 83% reduction of thoughtful valuation compared to the here's my dollar invest it in these 500 stocks. Already we are down to about 2-1 a 63% impact, in just the last decade, the results have been to the upside and I believe will continue even more vigorously for the next couple of years, as long as the FED continues to stay on it's present course, which it just stated it will be very slow to change.
Sigh ... I have no idea what you are trying to argue here, but your arithmetic is correct only if all participants' portfolios are identical in size.

You also consistently conflate passive investing with S&P 500 index investing. While it is possibly true that retail investors are overweighting that sector, it is definitely true that the majority of passive money (typically institutions like state pension funds) is not so naive. If the S&P is in fact mispriced, which can be debated, this will get sorted out just like any other mispricing -- by the active managers. Not to worry.

Another implicit assumption in your arguments is that money coming under passive management is all new money. It is not, as any of the various mutual funds flow charts will confirm. Active investors in aggregate probably end up buying the whole market as they hunt for winners, so when investors switch to a passive strategy and sell out their active managers, in aggregate the stock the active managers sell will be pretty much the same stock that the passive funds will buy. IOW, primarily no new money, no new-name stocks purchased, and little market impact.
 
Sigh ... I have no idea what you are trying to argue here, but your arithmetic is correct only if all participants' portfolios are identical in size.

You also consistently conflate passive investing with S&P 500 index investing. While it is possibly true that retail investors are overweighting that sector, it is definitely true that the majority of passive money (typically institutions like state pension funds) is not so naive.

IF you want to understand where money is coming from look at the money in S&P 500 it is 80% of the US market, the S&P500 may be different from the other 20% but it is still 80% of the market and growing as a percentage of the total market. This is because when anyone invests in VTI 80% goes to S&P500 when they invest in S&P500 they invest 100% in S&P500 leading to overinvestment in S&P500. Or are you saying pension funds are so smart they don't go to where the majority of investment dollars go.

If the S&P is in fact mispriced, which can be debated, this will get sorted out just like any other mispricing -- by the active managers. Not to worry. I do not feel you will ever worry about pricing which is the point, you are counting on a diminished market presence to set a price when money is just flowing on an increased basis into the market.

Another implicit assumption in your arguments is that money coming under passive management is all new money. No this is not my assumption at all, the assumption is that Passive money is replacing active money, I thought that was pretty clear, new money from young investors is nearly all passive, the money being sold by older investors is much more active. The result is more passive activity and the end result will be market moves will be determined by cash needs and not market valuation and in the coming next couple years those flows should be positive leading to even more of a positive uptrend. It is not, as any of the various mutual funds flow charts will confirm. Active investors in aggregate probably end up buying the whole market as they hunt for winners, so when investors switch to a passive strategy and sell out their active managers, in aggregate the stock the active managers sell will be pretty much the same stock that the passive funds will buy. IOW, primarily no new money, no new-name stocks purchased, and little market impact. Since active money on balance average 3% cash and passive has no cash, every time an active investor sells there is more cash going into equities than existed before, if an active investor sells a portfolio that is tilted to one stock and buys a passive index, it is the passive index that changes it's market capitalization to keep the same percentage of valuation for all the stocks in the index, not that every stock in the index is being bought. Think of it this way, suppose a giant pension fund held billions of dollars in small stocks and decides to drop active investing and moves into VTI. Prior to selling Passive owns a percentage of the total market and by definition active owns the remainder in equal proportion to the passive. After the selling the same will be true even thought the active investor only sold a portion of the total market, the total market is redefined by the index to account for the change in ownership by rule, it is the passive market determining the rules and capitalization not the active. AND THE S&P500 will be the major beneficiary of this move because of the market capitalization of the S&P500. Passive investors will merely think that small stocks are being valued less by active investors when in truth they are just leaving the market

See above in red.
 
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I learned of the BH forum from this forum, which remains the only forum I ever frequent, went to that BH forum briefly, and ran away before I even bothered to register.

Well it's not exactly a warm and friendly crowd (as opposed to here), but there is a wealth of knowledge and insights you can get from Bogleheads. SSA and TIAA are two topics that there is a lot to learn about over there.
 
The bottom line is some people just cannot accept “average” returns.They have to win and prove something.Sometimes it turns out ok.Most of the time it does not.Good luck to all because none of us really knows where the market will be 6 months from now,no matter how hard we try to convince ourselves we do.
 
Passive vs Active amounts means a lot of new THEORIES about how that plays out.I emphasize THEORIES.
 
Something must be missing since the US stock market is currently worth over $34T. Where's the other $27T? Maybe it's off discovering price?

This is total of Funds and ETF's and does not include individual and hedge fund holdings A goodly percentage of the total market is held by insiders and is not part of the index until they sell to a fund etf or active investor, yet included in the total market cap of the stock market.
 
... are you saying pension funds are so smart they don't go to where the majority of investment dollars go. ...
Hard to know but it would not surprise me, There have been some recent threads here even, where the investor is underweighting the S&P. There are funds that make that very easy. I have thought about it myself, but presently sticking with total world where S&P is around 40%. (BTW the US market is not "the market." Certainly the pros are not sitting at 100% home country bias. Nor are many of us here.)

... I do not feel you will ever worry about pricing which is the point, you are counting on a diminished market presence to set a price when money is just flowing on an increased basis into the market. ...
There is zero chance that passive investing will crowd out trading by active investors. I have explained the reasons previously. Look at any active fund and you will see turnover of 100% or even much more. Look at any passive fund and you will see numbers under 20%. I looked at one DFA fund where the turnover was 5%. The essence of "passive" is that trading volume will not track market share.

...new money from young investors is nearly all passive, the money being sold by older investors ...
False premise and, anyway, individual investors do not drive the market, arrogant though we may be. New participants' most popular 401K investments are balanced and target date funds, which are definitely not all passive on the equity side.

... suppose a giant pension fund held billions of dollars in small stocks and decides to drop active investing ...
Hypothetical scenario/straw man. Nothing factual to discuss.
 
This is total of Funds and ETF's and does not include individual and hedge fund holdings A goodly percentage of the total market is held by insiders and is not part of the index until they sell to a fund etf or active investor, yet included in the total market cap of the stock market.

There is $27T of insider money out there? That means passive funds are half of a small portion of the total market. Why are we having this conversation?
 
Passive vs Active amounts means a lot of new THEORIES about how that plays out.I emphasize THEORIES.
True enough, but worse, the view is polluted by sellers of active management working like beavers to bash their competition. There was one somewhat famous article a couple of years ago where passive investing was said to be communism.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it” -- Upton Sinclair
A popular criticism is to turn up one's nose at "average returns." Actually, there is over a half-century of data that says benchmark/market average returns are far above the average returns of the stock pickers. For myself, I am quite happy to know that our passive portfolio will probably outperform 90% of the stock pickers over 5-10 years and even in just one year it will probably outperform two out of three. I'll take that.

But maybe the most popular criticism lately is to predict the death of price discovery. The question is not whether passively held equities will comprise 100% of the market. This will never happen. Passive strategies' penetration history will eventually be seen as the classic s-curve. Where is the asymptote? No one knows. What will its effect on the markets be? No one knows.

One of my private speculations is that the recent lack of market volatility is due to the damping effect of passive portfolios. Nothing to debate here, please, just idle speculation.
 
We will have to wait to see how the passive vs. active investing argument will play out. But I have to present the following.

It is impossible for the mutual fund or pension fund managers to ignore the market index. They are judged with it. People here do all the time! The net effect is that they do not dare deviate too far from it.

As early as 1998-1999, when I rolled out my 401k to an IRA and started to become a more active investor, I read every issue of Business Week cover to cover to follow and to try to understand the market. There was already at that time the term "closet indexer". It described managers who mimicked the index, but still claimed to be stock pickers.

And yes, there are funds that do not have the FAANG stocks in the holdings, or if they do, these growth stocks are underweighted compared to the index. These funds are mostly conservative income funds. In bull years, they trail the market as they do in recent years, but look at their performance in past market crashes. I would say that these funds are in the minority. These value funds are the ones who dare go against the trend. Look at their performance before and after the dot-com burst too. Again, they are a minority. The rest chase after the index.

My point here is that if you count only the funds with the word "index" in their name, you miss a lot of the "closet indexers". How much you miss? I don't know, but it is significant, even 20 years ago.
 
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... My point here is that if you count only the funds with the word "index" in their name, you miss a lot of the "closet indexers". How much you miss? I don't know, but it is significant, even 20 years ago.
Yes. Absolutely. And of course the large pension funds and other pros* who are passive are probably not using retail funds, so are not counted when only funds are examined.

For example, I have an nonprofit investment review meeting on 1/23 where I have asked one of the FAs, RBC Wealth Management, to present a comparison chart showing performance of their 100+ stocks in the portfolio to the Russell 3000 and to the ACWI. I am anticipating that they will resist, but if they do provide the chart I expect to see a closet indexer.

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*"CREATE-Research surveyed 153 retirement plans in 25 countries with total assets of €3 trillion ($3.53 trillion) and an average of 32% of plan assets in passive investments. Eighty percent of respondents expect to grow their passive investments in the next three years, including 31% that project increasing by more than 5%." (https://www.pionline.com/article/20...onghold-across-global-retirement-plans-survey)
 
Yes. Absolutely. And of course the large pension funds and other pros* who are passive are probably not using retail funds, so are not counted when only funds are examined.

For example, I have an nonprofit investment review meeting on 1/23 where I have asked one of the FAs, RBC Wealth Management, to present a comparison chart showing performance of their 100+ stocks in the portfolio to the Russell 3000 and to the ACWI. I am anticipating that they will resist, but if they do provide the chart I expect to see a closet indexer.

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*"CREATE-Research surveyed 153 retirement plans in 25 countries with total assets of €3 trillion ($3.53 trillion) and an average of 32% of plan assets in passive investments. Eighty percent of respondents expect to grow their passive investments in the next three years, including 31% that project increasing by more than 5%." (https://www.pionline.com/article/20...onghold-across-global-retirement-plans-survey)


How does someone have time to do anything else while posting 3.75 times a day.
 
How does someone have time to do anything else while posting 3.75 times a day.

I believe this is a site where many are retired and can probably find 10 or 15 minutes to post 3.75 times a day :D
 
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