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Old 03-06-2009, 09:40 AM   #21
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It had to be delusion setting in. WHY ELSE would the two NFL guys take off the ONLY thing that could save their life??

I am not so sure about the "giving up" thing if they still had reason and were rational. It is EXTREMELY difficult to make it to the NFL and involves a TON of sacrificing over many years. NFL players don't just "give up" when times get difficult........
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:41 AM   #22
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freebird,
Could you give us some pointers of what else to ask before boarding a boat? Besides the 2 you mention. GPS is one right? Anything else? This is my worst nightmare
Thanks
Are you the skipper or a passenger? Power or sail?
Sailor or landlubber?
If you want to start a new thread, I'd be very happy to answer questions and point you in the right directions.
The best layperson's boating safety training can be found here
USPS Educational Department - Public Boating Education Programs
The US Power Squadron is a national organization that teaches public courses, usually in cooperation with local water rescue or enforcement groups.
If you go to this link, USPS Educational Department, you can enter your zip code and see what is offered nearby.
Quick checklist for fishermen here : http://74.125.47.132/custom?q=cache:...google-coop-np
I personally would add an EPIRB device to the checklist for deepwater or offshore excursions. Search on "Personal Rescue Beacon - EPIRB - SART" online.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:46 AM   #23
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It had to be delusion setting in. WHY ELSE would the two NFL guys take off the ONLY thing that could save their life??

I am not so sure about the "giving up" thing if they still had reason and were rational. It is EXTREMELY difficult to make it to the NFL and involves a TON of sacrificing over many years. NFL players don't just "give up" when times get difficult........
I believe the article said the water temp was in the 60s. Add to that horrendous wave action and panic, look at this chart, and understand that it truly is a miracle that the one guy survived.
Hypothermia safety
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:07 AM   #24
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Terrible tragedy. As others have noted, they made boating mistakes, but most every inexperienced boater does. Even experienced boaters screw up. Survival in the conditions they found themselves in is very iffy, but staying with the boat, even a capsized boat, gives one the best chance at staying alive until found. And a boat hull is a lot easier to see than a lone swimmer. But, it's very difficult to stay with a hull if there are no handholds, so they may have tried unsuccessfully to stay with the boat. As far as taking off their jackets, the mind starts playing tricks as the body goes into hypothermia. It may not have been a conscious decision, they may have thought in their state of mind that they could swim to shore.

I found myself in a similar situation about 10 years ago and came within maybe 10 minutes of dying. Water was 50 degrees and my core temp when they pulled me out was down to 94. I hung onto the boat, in fact tied myself to whatever lines I could find, assumed the fetal position to conserve body heat, and waited for rescue. I don't want to rehash my story, but just would like to point out that before being rescued I started having thoughts about swimming to safety, and feelings of dispair. I had to concentrate on my training to remain with the boat and practice what I'd learned. I certainly gained a lot of respect for the water back then, and consider myself a much safer sailor today.

So, my heart goes out to the victim's families, and I don't think they gave up hope. I think that they fought with all their conscious will until their minds gave up and could fight no more.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:18 AM   #25
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Finally, as another sailor, with a similar story, I agree. It is just a damn shame that with the 406 EPIRBs and the small PLB (Personal Locator Beacon) now available so cheaply, that these wealthy folks did not have them on board.

I, too, was surprised that they gave up within hours. When we turtled offshore in a Hobie, it was more than 5 hours before the Coast Guard could find us and pull us out of the water. We had jackets, and we tied ourselves to one another because the wind and waves were so strong that we feared being separated.

Perhaps it is that we live near the coast, but none of us four panicked, were delusional, or despairing during that time. But had those safety features, even the hand-held VHF radio been available back then, we would have had them on board.

I am so sad for these families, and do recommend the book Adrift, written by Steven Callahan about his 76 day ordeal in a liferaft after his sailboat sank. A far better story of the mental facilities required to sustain hope in the great big ocean.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:23 AM   #26
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I believe the article said the water temp was in the 60s. Add to that horrendous wave action and panic, look at this chart, and understand that it truly is a miracle that the one guy survived.
Hypothermia safety
What I said was IF they were not delusional and still had rational thought, they might have NOT taken off their life jackets.

I live near Lake Michigan. My friend has a 21 foot cuddy cabin cruiser. Until he got a marine radio and GPS on it, I refused to ride outside the breakwater on it. I also told him until he gets RADAR, I am not going to go out father than 2 miles........

Lake Michigan water temp is about 44 degrees in the HEAT of August, right now the temp is 38 at the surface and 34 15 feet deep.......
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:33 AM   #27
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FD, you don't need just a GPS on that boat, that is not sufficient. You need him to have an EPIRB. Very important distinction, and one that could have saved some lives this past week.
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:41 AM   #28
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FD, you don't need just a GPS on that boat, that is not sufficient. You need him to have an EPIRB. Very important distinction, and one that could have saved some lives this past week.
Will advise the captain.......
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:48 AM   #29
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Or you could get yourself a PLB and carry it with you on the boat, or hiking, or doing whatever activities you might find yourself to be in need of rescue!

Can you tell I'm a big fan of EPIRBs? From working at the chandlery, I am sure. You get to hear all the nightmare stories!
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:51 AM   #30
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Can you tell I'm a big fan of EPIRBs? From working at the chandlery, I am sure. You get to hear all the nightmare stories!
Or is it a fear that no one would miss you unless you had some means of letting the world know you were 'gone' ...
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Old 03-06-2009, 10:55 AM   #31
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Or you could get yourself a PLB and carry it with you on the boat, or hiking, or doing whatever activities you might find yourself to be in need of rescue!

Can you tell I'm a big fan of EPIRBs? From working at the chandlery, I am sure. You get to hear all the nightmare stories!
I'm sitting right beside you in the EPIRB fan bleachers. I primarily boat in smaller inland lakes. If I were boating on any of a larger inland lake, Great Lake, river or offshore waters, I would have one of those babies within immediate reach and/or clipped to my PFD at all times if moving around onboard. Stuff happens!
We have a SPOT handheld device which is capable of calling our cell phones or worst case, notifying 911. dh2b uses it for snowmobiling. it will be with me 24/7 on land and "at sea" this summer.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:39 AM   #32
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FD, you don't need just a GPS on that boat, that is not sufficient. You need him to have an EPIRB. Very important distinction, and one that could have saved some lives this past week.
Did a 600 mile offshore rally once. EPIRB was mandatory, if you didn't have one they would rent you one, but you could not go without one.

Other required items for that rally: offshore PFDs that kept your head up, self-inflatable dinghy, submersible VHF, waterproof lantern, float plan, charts. I don't think a GPS was required, though we all had one. If you need a GPS to navigate, you really should not be offshore, but it's valuable to relay positions back and forth.

Can you tell the rally organizers were a bit anal about it? I'm glad they were.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:40 PM   #33
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Water was 50 degrees and my core temp when they pulled me out was down to 94.
NFL players are tough guys, but like most any world-class athlete,
virtually nil body fat; body fat is very useful in the water, both for
buoyancy (even with PFDs, I'd think more buoyancy is nice, I notice
a big difference with me and a 25-lb PFD) and for insulation (just ask
any marine mammal).

Was the survivor a significantly less buff guy I wonder ?
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:04 PM   #34
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I thought about that body fat thing, too, Rusty. When we were in the water for that long stretch, my DH and I (no scarcity of body fat on us) were much warmer longer than our two skinnier friends. In fact, we actually told Bobby that if it came down to it, we'd use him as a 6 foot chicken neck to catch crabs! (apologize for the humor that may not be apparent those who have never been crabbing with chicken necks).
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:03 PM   #35
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Maryland's eastern shore AKA chicken necking country. Commercial crabbers get them by the truckload.
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Old 03-29-2009, 06:52 AM   #36
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Details are now in on this boating accident. New boaters, or even experienced boaters, should learn from this. Never try to pull up a stuck anchor from a small boat with a powerful engine. The anchor is likely to win, pulling the rail or stern under water and the boat will capsize.

You can do this on a big, heavy sailboat with a keel, or a heavy displacement power boat with high freeboard. But, as a general rule, if the anchor won't come up by hand, or with the windlass, cut the line and move on. A new line and achor is a lot cheaper than a new boat, and a lot better than risking your life.

"Around 5:30 p.m., they went to pull up the anchor and head back to port, but the anchor was stuck. Bleakley suggested they tie it to the transom and use the boat's motor to pull it loose.

When Cooper tried to thrust the boat forward, the vessel became submerged and capsized, tossing the men overboard."

Report: Improper anchoring caused boat accident - wtop.com
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Old 03-30-2009, 08:57 AM   #37
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"Around 5:30 p.m., they went to pull up the anchor and head back to port, but the anchor was stuck. Bleakley suggested they tie it to the transom and use the boat's motor to pull it loose.

When Cooper tried to thrust the boat forward, the vessel became submerged and capsized, tossing the men overboard."

Report: Improper anchoring caused boat accident - wtop.com
That was NOT a smart idea.....did any of these men take a course in water safety?
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:38 AM   #38
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That was NOT a smart idea.....did any of these men take a course in water safety?
An experienced boater knows that you NEVER tie the anchor to the transom, but a landlubber would not.
It is just a matter of time before states require mandatory boating courses before allowing operation of vessels. That concept is not new, but it is fiercely opposed whenever it is proposed. People accept the concept of a written/practical driver's test, but for some reason the public hates the idea of a boater's license. I personally support licensing boaters. It would be a lot safer for all of us at the helm.
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:42 AM   #39
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An experienced boater knows that you NEVER tie the anchor to the transom, but a landlubber would not.
It is just a matter of time before states require mandatory boating courses before allowing operation of vessels. That concept is not new, but it is fiercely opposed whenever it is proposed. People accept the concept of a written/practical driver's test, but for some reason the public hates the idea of a boater's license. I personally support licensing boaters. It would be a lot safer for all of us at the helm.
I agree...... I have a few scary boat stories about being on Lake Michigan, and th stupid stuff my dad and I saw out there. I think we rescued about 9 boats in a ten year period........
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:19 AM   #40
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All due respects but........ The story is being told by the lone surviver who was plucked out of those same waters after 40 some hours. Is his story the truth or was he impaired after this traumatizing experience? Salt water. Hypothermia. For over 40 hours. Can you really expect him to be 100% clear in what he remembers? I would not be so quick to jump on his story as gospel.
^^ Yeah, that. Or...:sinister music: there was only room for one on the upside-down boat.
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