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Old 06-06-2007, 04:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Fireup2025 View Post
I just wish NJ would get rid of their old dust! People who have reached retirement age/years should take their cushy pensions so we can hire new blood! I'll leave happily at that point!!! Why can't they!? There is a 75 year old person in the same job title as I have (albeit in a different office) - who has the age/tenure to leave...but is still employed, even though "out on medical" at least half the year! Grrrrrr! Not fair, or what the discrimination laws were designed for.

Your point of view will change in a few years if you are in the cross-hairs or are negatively impacted in more subtle ways. The probability is high that you will be discriminated against for age or disability/illness. It will all be justified by illogical but seemingly perfectly rational rhetoric... like why wouldn't that person retire they can afford it?

Sound familiar?

It is a person's choice (or should be) as long as they are able to contribute and stay within the organizations rules. Note: I am not talking about an out and out slacker... obvious a slacker would not have long tenure, they would have been fired long before.

I do not understand why some people choose to work when they could otherwise retire... but there is a thin line between I do not understand and I think people should conform to my perceived conventions... therefore demonize them and rationalize that they are doing something wrong.
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Old 06-06-2007, 07:41 AM   #22
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Please do not confuse the issues I am speaking of. I have worked with/for plenty of "older workers" - and unless the individual is a drain on the work systems in place, I could not care less. (oh, we do have those!) We have a hiring freeze on - and just under 2,000 state employees with over 25 years of service (eligible for fat pens with full med bennies) - I work with veterans seeking jobs - and there is no where in this system for them to apply to. That is why I am so aggravated.
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Old 06-06-2007, 11:19 AM   #23
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Chinaco,

No, it is really more disparate treatment. All things otherwise equal one group of workers treated differently than others.

If educational level were the justification for the result then a disparate impact analysis would be the approach.

In an economy where skilled workers are hard to find I don't think age discrimination for current employees is a common situation. The group most likely to suffer, however, are technical and engineering professionals. There is the perception that their skills and knowledge are not current enough to drive the business forward. Thus, it behoves this group to not only keep up educationally but to be perceived as being at the top of the game.

Another factor is that long term employees are often at the top of their pay range. If comp budget is an issue and a manager must reduce headcount where there are two good performers one of whom is earning 15% more than the other - the higher paid is more likely to be seen as surplus.

Often business complain that their IS employees are more loyal to their profession than to the business. The reason, IMHO, is that they must keep up with technology and stay at the leading edge. The technology cycle within a business is much longer than the industry as a whole and no one wants to be on the employment market with yesterday's technology on their resume.
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Old 06-06-2007, 04:24 PM   #24
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can't believe I'm agreeing with two people with opposed views, kinda does not flow.

Brat,
Agree 100%, it's all perception. And unfortunately for us old guys, the 50% of the past 55 crowd that bumbled around each day and loitered by the pot, well they tainted all the other over 55 employees. Sad but peers define the group.

Fireup2025,
if you had worked at TRW (Now NGST) in the 1980's your blood pressure would have been 293/280, there were so many old dinosaurs lurking with no purpose but to comment on their work with Werner von Braun and making 2x my salary.

BUTT,
Some of them had pearls of wisdom and some had pearls of drool. Knowing the difference is all the difference. It's really a management issue to sort it out, so the fault is the person making 15x your salary.

The future belongs to the victor, have at it, gnash and battle and
it will remain a $2mil salary issue gone undone.
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Old 06-06-2007, 06:04 PM   #25
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Please do not confuse the issues I am speaking of. I have worked with/for plenty of "older workers" - and unless the individual is a drain on the work systems in place, I could not care less. (oh, we do have those!) We have a hiring freeze on - and just under 2,000 state employees with over 25 years of service (eligible for fat pens with full med bennies) - I work with veterans seeking jobs - and there is no where in this system for them to apply to. That is why I am so aggravated.
I do not think I am confusing the issue.

Good thing you do not work in HR, have Management responsibilities or Hire/Fire control. Your organization would likely be the target of a law suit!

If you espouse those thoughts/words too much/openly at work or to the wrong person... your job might be the one that is opened up for one of those out of work vets to fill.

If you think that vets looking for a job is justification There is no justification.

It is considered discrimination. It is not as frowned on as race, religious, or gender discrimination... Yet. Not too many years ago people would say similar things about women who got a job... especially if it were in a traditionally male occupation. For example, she doesn't need to work, she doesn't need the money... she's married.

I am a little astonished that it does not occur to you that your statements are discriminatory. If you replaced the word "Old Dust" in your first post on this thread with the word women, or Pick a racial slur, or pick a religious slur... It would be obvious to you. :confused:

-------------------

Everyone else --- Sorry about the soapbox but... oh well you already know! You are reading the thread.
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Old 06-06-2007, 06:27 PM   #26
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I venture that Fireup2025 is a state/local public employee who hasn't had much experience with legal or policy issues. But his point of view is not unusual.

I think what frustrates him is that he believes that senior employees could earn as much from the pension system and open a slot for other (presumably younger) employees if they would only retire. This is why years ago many retirement programs required employees to retire at 65.

It is true that a few retire on the job and just don't leave. The challenge for managers is how to get them to see that retirement is a wonderful experience. This is similar to having an adult child who doesn't move out of the house. The trick is to convince them that the world is safe and a lot more fun elsewhere. In my old agency a transfer to Buffalo did the trick.

However, it is my observation that most older workers do their share, and then some, on a daily basis. To force them aside is not only unjust but illegal.
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Old 06-07-2007, 06:54 AM   #27
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This has been my observation about how companies handle the issue of getting rid of older, highly paid employees:

They perform small "stealth" layoffs on a regular basis. They are referred to as stealth layoffs because the number of employees affected isn't large enough to justify major media coverage. However, if a company performs stealth layoffs routinely, that number adds up over time.

Now, here's the really slimy part: The smart companies make sure all age demographics are represented in the group that's laid off. They typically provide a package to the laid off employee that has information about the ages and skill levels that were included in the "Resource Action". This accomplishes two things: The laid off employee can see that all ages were affected so they are much less likely to consider any age discrimination legal action. The second thing is that the company has now documented that they didn't discriminate against the older, more highly paid employees.

However, the net result is that it still allows them to get rid of their older employees with large salaries.

Some evil HR genius with a Dr. Strangelove mentality must have come up with this seemingly bulletproof strategy for handling the “old employee, large salary” issue.

John
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Old 06-07-2007, 08:52 AM   #28
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I discriminate against poor or even simply marginal performance. The "young/old/green/purple/male/female/TG, etc" person who is incompetent and apathetic in his/her job should not be there. And I make no apologies for this.

To Chinaco's dismay, I DO work with employers in the 55+ work programs and with the Americans with Disabilities Act programs (these are individuals who do WANT and have the ability to work) I do not believe that all workers are treated equally - or even fairly for that matter - and to think that this will TRULY ever happen is unrealistic, simply because we are human. I am female and have usually been in traditional "male dominant occupations" (welder, carpenter, mechanical engineer, veteran representative) - typically, when competence and adaptability was proven, I was accepted and respected. Shame on me, I expect the same from my organization members.

Workers should get and keep jobs based on their ABILITY, not age. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) protects people age 40 and over from employment discrimination based on age. The law says that an employer may not fire, refuse to hire, or treat you differently than other employees because of your age. (my point is that competence is not covered by any discrimation laws)
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:43 AM   #29
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I have been through massive downsizing as a manager, a participant, and also as CEO. The CEO event was a 20% downsizing. We always used competence/contribution as the criteria. The employees were never happy and felt that we discriminated on some basis that was unfair.

This is understandable because it is an extremely emotional process to be a part of. My BIL was also offered a stealth ER from a big bank and happily took it.
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Old 06-24-2007, 01:15 PM   #30
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The issue starts early here in Silicon Valley... it is a very youth-oriented culture in most of these companies. IT workers start getting the short stick in their late 40s...
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