Chevy Volt

[nphx]

GM and the UAW still leave a bad taste in my mouth, I get that subsidies encourage adoption by consumers, but having that crew be the benificiary of more taxpayer money has me p o'd.

 

[ronocnikral]

40 miles just about covers my monthly mileage.

i've seen bumper stickers on the back priuses that say, "your SUV makes you look fat."

i want a shirt that says, "your prius makes you look lazy."

my trusty schwinn's get me to and fro with no problem. $40k?! no way. i've been riding the same bike since i was 14.

 

[Texas Proud]

$41K?

Why would anyone get a volt instead of a prius? Is there something special about the volt that I don't know?

Yes... it is made by your government...

 

[Nords]

Why would anyone get a volt instead of a prius? Is there something special about the volt that I don't know?

But on the EVs I think I will wait quite a while before jumping in. I know you want to tinker with the damn thing, but me, I just want to drive it.

In our case it's a niche. We already own a Prius. 40 miles is a great neighborhood car, we live on a 30x40 island so a 40-mile EV could do some town driving, and we'd recharge it from our photovoltaic array. Not having to buy gas would drop our expenses about $1000/year (at today's $3.25/gal).

Meanwhile, I'm shopping for a used 911 Carrera that's 5 or so years-old.

Funny you should mention that model-- it's such a favorite for aftermarket & DIY EV conversions that Porsche is considering an EV version of the Boxster.

Electric Porsche,Ev,ELectric car,battery cars,conversion,EVporsche, boxster,911,greencar,hybrid,

Electric motor torque ratings mean that if you stomp on a Porsche EV's accelerator you'll get the same G forces as a gas hog. But I'm afraid that I don't know if you get the same reaction from hot chicks.

 

[RDamien]

I just dont see the point of this car at this time. Unless you want to "go green" and dont mind paying a very hefty fee to do so, it doesnt make sense to get this car. Even used you'll need to worry about battery replacement and disposal which isnt cheap. How long would i be to break even money wise on gas savings? Modern gasoline cars are getting amazing fuel economy now.

I'm currently car shopping and this, or any EV isnt on my list. Neither is the Prius style hybrids. The cars doing hybrid right, in my opinion, are the very nice Ford Fusion Hybrid and possibly the upcoming Hyundai Sonata Kia Optima hybrids.

As it stands though, I'll be getting the 2011 Optima, a hell of a lot more car for 25k and ... well look at it!

 

[Andre1969]

One concern I have about the Volt, is what if you end up relying on the electricity for so long that the gasoline eventually goes stale? For instance, I work about 4 miles away, and don't really go very far. And if I was going on a long trip I'd take a bigger, more comfortable vehicle anyway. So in my case, it's entirely conceivable that the gasoline could go bad.

How long does gas last nowadays, anyway? Back in the day, I used to hear that after a year or so, it would start to turn to varnish. But then I hear stories about someone finding a 1952 DeSoto or whatever in a barn that hasn't been started in 20 years, and supposedly fires right up on that ancient gasoline!

I think most gasoline nowadays is actually a blend, with 5-10% ethanol, and it tends to go bad faster than "pure" gasoline.

But, that aside, I probably won't be buying a Volt anytime soon. Considering my commute is so short, I don't buy much gasoline anyway. I could probably commute in an out-of-tune Hemi Roadrunner and my monthly fuel bill would still be negligible!

 

[Kronk]

Don't forget the $7500 tax credit that you get by purchasing a Volt. $33,500 is still a hefty price, though.

The concept is cool, but I'm not going to be buying one.

 

[ERD50]

... I get that subsidies encourage adoption by consumers, ...

I don't like the ideas of subsidies either. If these things can't stand on their own merits, they can't stand, period. Making me pay for my neighbors car doesn't change the payback equation, it just changes who pays for it. If I don't want to pay for one for myself, I certainly don't want to pay for someone else's.

I've talked about it before, but I think the 'adoption rate' boost is overstated. In fact, it might even slow down progress in EVs (hey, if they can sell them with limited range due to this false increased value with the subsidy, there is less incentive to improve range).

One concern I have about the Volt, is what if you end up relying on the electricity for so long that the gasoline eventually goes stale?

I'm pretty sure there is a maintenance mode where it runs the ICE through a cycle every two weeks or so. And with the sealed gas tanks we have today, I think stale gas is less of a problem.

-ERD50

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Not a problem - buy yourself a gasoline-powered generator.

The Volt has a gas generator built in, rather than a gas combustion engine for when you run out of electrons.

 

[ERD50]

Don't forget the $7500 tax credit that you get by purchasing a Volt. $33,500 is still a hefty price, though.

Anyone who buys one should be required to loan it out to the public 9.5 weeks a year for the life of the car. After all, if we paid for 18% of their new car, shouldn't we get 18% ownership?

I just don't get why some of us should pay for another's car/appliance, etc.

-ERD50

 

[Bimmerbill]

I still like smaller diesels, but most companies are not bringing them to the US. A diesel hybrid may be cool, but I don't know any in the works.

I do plan to check out the new Ford Fiesta, under $15K and close to 40MPG.

I have a 75 mile round trip commute. I may be looking to move closer to work!

 

[kramer]

I read the announcement yesterday and after reading the details, realized that this was essentially an admission of failure. I don't see how anyone could consider this a serious car at that price and with those specs unless they are trying to make some kind of statement. Unfortunately, we will be subsidizing the statement-makers . . .

 

[Zathras]

...
I just don't get why some of us should pay for another's car/appliance, etc.

-ERD50

The basics are the same as the reason I am required to pay for the education of my neighbors kids, the rescue of people I don't even know, the firefighters who put out fires no where near me.

The answer to your question is very tricky, where do you draw the line?
I am happy topaz taxes to support education as it is relatively easy to see how that helps society as a whole.
Paying for a local museum most people will never see? I don't think so, but I am paying for that as well.
EVs in my opinion will provide a better quality of life for society as a whole, so I think it 'fits' in with education, emergency services, etc.
However, I am sure some don't. Which is, supposedly, why we have elections.

 

[easysurfer]

I bet 5-10 year from now, the thought of making a car that only runs on gasoline will seem so archiac. A comparison is the thought of the process of film photography rather than digital.

I think the Volt is a statement. That a car made by a non-foriegn company can do it too ... even though, late at the party.

From a consumer standpoint, this is good news because it's only a matter of time before there are more and more choices and competition. Supply and demand.

 

[Ronstar]

I see the Volt being an economic failure for GM (and the taxpayer owners) - people buying them will be those trying to make an environmental statement. Smarter folks will do the math and buy a conventional 40 mpg car.

I have a problem with front row parking spaces being reserved for hybrids and some public facilities providing plug-ins.

 

[Coderguy]

I think the Volt is a statement. That a car made by a non-foriegn company can do it too ... even though, late at the party.

The Tesla roadster made this statement. That is why Toyota is trying to get in on the ground floor and take them over.

Chevy is embarrassing us yet again with this almost openly admitted failure. A gov't subsidy is inappropriate in this case; we're collectively pushing bad product.

We should be celebrating Tesla, and subsidizing the opening of American power companies to install charging stations; recycle batteries; etc.

 

[ERD50]

RE: subsidies for EVs versus other subsidies...

EVs in my opinion will provide a better quality of life for society as a whole, so I think it 'fits' in with education, emergency services, etc.

Sure, all the things you mention are somewhat subjective and people will have differing opinions as to their worth.

When it comes to EVs, I'd be more accepting of the idea of subsidizing them if I felt it would really help them advance. But I don't. I think we've had this discussion before, and the limiting factor for EVs is batteries. There is already huge demand to push better batteries, and selling a few XX,000 more EVs (or whatever #) is still a drop in the bucket to overall demand for batteries. I just don't think it will help in the slightest, let alone $7,500 per vehicle's worth. Very poor ROI, IMO.

Plus, technology improves at a pace that is limited by more than just demand. If the government subsidized home computers, we couldn't have gone from 1MHz 8 bit computers to 3GHz 32/64 bit computers in one leap, just because of demand. The chip makers had to learn how go to sub micron technology in steps, get some experience and then move to the next step. IIRC, 90nM hit a big stumble, they worked it out, then moved to 65nM and now 45nM. Same with batteries, they advance a step at a time, and it just takes some time to gain experience with each step. As some of my bosses would say, nine women can't make a baby in a month.

Chevy is embarrassing us yet again with this almost openly admitted failure.

I'm not sure how I feel about the 'embarrassment' part. I understand what you say, but OTOH, they were getting a lot of political and public pressure to produce higher mileage and 'green' cars. And to some extent, they were being embarrassed by that. Personally, I think they should have the guts to come out and say it isn't viable at this time, and we are not going to waste money on it. But that isn't PC in this climate.

I'll say it again - the time for EVs in the US will be years after they become mainstream in Europe. With their high gas prices, and generally shorter commutes, it just seems obvious to me that if EVs were ready for the US market, Europeans would have been buying them up for along time. What is the EV market % in Euro-land?

It's a two way street - demand does not push technology so much as technology pushes demand. Look at solar cells - at first their cost was so high, the only place they made sense was in satellites - because they were cheaper than the alternatives, so the military used them. With experience, value improved, and then they made sense for some additional specialized markets, which increased demand. In turn, at each step of improvement, demand increases because it makes economic sense to use them. It is a natural progression, and I just don't think there are too many places where subsidies improve that, dollar for dollar.

-ERD50

 

[RDamien]

I see the Volt being an economic failure for GM (and the taxpayer owners) - people buying them will be those trying to make an environmental statement. Smarter folks will do the math and buy a conventional 40 mpg car.

GM knows this car will lose them money for years, and they've known it from the start. It's mostly about branding themselves for the future according to them:

GM: We’ll Lose Our Shirts on the Volt, But That’s OK | Autopia | Wired.com

The Chevrolet Volt might just prove to be the game-changing car its supporters say it is, but General Motors expects to lose money on the car "for years," said Vice Chairman Bob Lutz.
Maximum Bob’s frank admission isn’t terribly surprising given the resources GM is pouring into the Volt and the expense of the technology behind the range-extended EV, but you’ve got to admire his honesty.
"We won’t make a dime on this car for years, and the board is OK with that," he told a group of Volt enthusiasts at the New York International Auto Show, according to the Detroit News.

Read More GM: We’ll Lose Our Shirts on the Volt, But That’s OK | Autopia | Wired.com
​

 

[ERD50]

I'll add to my already too long post, as the CPU analogy (can you use a digital device in an analogy?) got me thinking of how subsidies can stall advances.

Imagine at the time that Intel could sell all the 90nM processors it could make, because the govt was subsidizing computer sales to increase demand.

Where is the incentive to go 65nM? Hmmm?

-ERD50

 

[Leonidas]

I'll say it again - the time for EVs in the US will be years after they become mainstream in Europe. With their high gas prices, and generally shorter commutes, it just seems obvious to me that if EVs were ready for the US market, Europeans would have been buying them up for along time. What is the EV market % in Euro-land?

The Europers don't have the same hatred of diesel that our greeners do. They are all driving around in highly efficient diesel cars that are getting almost 70 MPG while burning the new cleaner diesel, and paying less than half the price of a Volt.

Ford Ka Overview - Information & Features of the New Ka - Ford UK

We will figure it out eventually. But Winston Churchill knew his 'Merkins well:

“You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

Meanwhile politicians get the green vote and the greenies pat themselves on the back, even if we eventually later realize there was a much smarter way to be doing all of this.

 

[ziggy29]

The Europers don't have the same hatred of diesel that our greeners do. They are all driving around in highly efficient diesel cars that are getting almost 70 MPG while burning the new cleaner diesel, and paying less than half the price of a Volt.

I recently came back from England, and what struck me most (other than driving on the wrong side of the road) was how few trucks, SUVs and minivans there were. Reflecting on the experience, I observed several factors in play:

For one thing, the price of gas (err, I mean petrol) is really high; when I was there it was something like 1.15 to 1.20 UKP per liter, which is a little over $6.50 per gallon at the prevailing exchange rates at the time.

Secondly, the parking lots are not friendly to big vehicles. This isn't Texas, that's for sure. It's a matter of practicality, and you won't fit a Hummer into the spaces at ASDA (which is basically Wal-Mart in the UK).

Thirdly, registration and road taxes in the UK are based on CO2 emissions. Since vehicles with lower MPG will emit more CO2 per mile driven, these vehicles have road taxes of up to more than 400 UKP annually (over $600) while many smaller, newer cars with high MPG may pay one third of that amount or even less.

And finally, there's the idea that when everyone around you isn't driving a huge SUV, you don't need one to "feel safer in a crash" which is what some people who don't need big vehicles in the US use as a justification.

 

[JOHNNIE36]

DW and I will be in the market for a new vehicle in about six months. Currently lease a Saturn Vue for 36 months @ $336/month, and had no out of pocket costs. I don't want to put any cash into a car. Although I am a GM retiree, I feel no alegiance to the company since they eliminated our health care coverages. Don't tell me about buying American. I can afford to drive a Cadillac if I want but choose not to for a number of reasons. I was looking at the new Cadillac SUV (off shoot of the CTS) and discovered it is being assembled in Ramos Arispe, Mexico. I look at cars any more as what is best for us from a dollar standpoint. DW wants a Toyota Prius and I am not apposed to that except it is not a good return on investment. Follow me on the math:
lets say a Prius gets 50 mpg on the high side. If you drove one 36000 miles and gas is $4/gallon you would spend $2880 to fuel it for a three year (our normal lease period). A regular gasoline SUV at 25mpg (easy to calculate) would use twice the fuel or cost $5760 for the three year period. That's a fuel savings of $2880 and if you are just trying to save money, you would be losing because the Prius hybrid costs about $5000 more than the standard Prius.

We are also concerned about the environment and at this stage are not decided which way we will go. You also lose a lot of comfort and performance going to a small vehicle like the Prius. I'm 6'3", 225# and feel cramped in the Prius. Which way to go

 

[easysurfer]

I excited about the technologies and challanges the auto companies face, but with my LBYM tendencies, I'll let the guinea pigs work out the kinks probably get a used hybrid or EV about 5 years from now

I think it's a winning situation for the consumers as no one is really forcing us to buy EV or hybrid, but that's just one more option out there.

Kind of like all the new phones. No one is forcing you to go iPhone or iPad, but let the "imitation is the best form of flattery" come and may the consumer win.

 

[clifp]

I just finished reading a Time article about the GM Volt. One of the things that struck me was that it would cost $.03/mile to drive a Volt using a electricity vs $.10/mile on gas for most people in the US. As Nords as says living on 30x40 mile island any of the electric vehicles would be ok for me. Although the article said that if you don't live in cool flat place that the Nissan Leaf range drops to 47 miles which would be to low even for me. The state has understandably made a push for electric vehicles.

On the other hand electricity rates in Oahu are $.25/KWh and well over $.30 in the other islands. So that means it would cost close to $.10/mile to charge the car. Now this makes sense since more than 80% of electricity in Hawaii is generated by burning oil. It isn't significantly more efficient to turn oil into electricity, transmit via power lines and charge batteries to run cars than it is to put oil directly into an internal combustion engine.

The subsidies in this whole business are pretty amazing. I can get a 35% subsidy to install a solar system in my house (which of course doesn't produce electricity at night to charge the car) to charge my Volt with a $7500 rebate, which is produced by Government Motors with its own long list of subsidies.

At this point, I think it would be better to give everybody a bicycle and go back to where China was a 20 years ago.

 

[Nords]

The subsidies in this whole business are pretty amazing. I can get a 35% subsidy to install a solar system in my house (which of course doesn't produce electricity at night to charge the car) to charge my Volt with a $7500 rebate, which is produced by Government Motors with its own long list of subsidies.

We get the federal subsidy, too, roughly another 30%. I'm counting on those subsidies when we upsize our array to handle an EV recharge.

The PV array has to be oversized to generate enough during the day to handle 24 hours of consumption. HECO credits excess generation during the day (for up to 12 rolling months) and we can use it at night free of "storage" charges.