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View Poll Results: Do you or do you not have children? Poll
Never wanted kids, have no kids 59 37.82%
Never wanted kids, but, surprise! had kids 2 1.28%
Wanted kids and had one 23 14.74%
Wanted kids and had two 48 30.77%
Wanted kids and had three 15 9.62%
Wanted kids..but had too many (over 3)! 4 2.56%
No kids of my own but mate did have young (-18) kids 1 0.64%
No kids of my own and mate's kids are out of the house 4 2.56%
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:54 PM   #161
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Spoken with wisdom. And I'd take that one further and say that most all of us rationalize most things in our lives as being the best........
Just call me Dr. Pangloss.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:55 PM   #162
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With all due respect, your post was very insulting to us childfree people.

Your post was a good example of we in the childfree world describe as getting ďbingoedĒ. It is typical of many childed people to stereotype childfree people as having empty lives.

What E86S54 fails to realize is that not everyone wants to have children. Childfree people like me see no positives to having children of our own, only negatives. Childfree people like me are also quite capable of having positive experiences with children without finding it necessary to have them. This is evident by the volunteer work I do as part of the school Scrabble program. That's a hobby, something I treasure a lot. [I have had nightmares about discovering I DID have kids and how awful my life would become. Good-bye to all things I enjoyed having by being childfree.]

We childfree people know in advance that we donít want to see our finances worsened by having kids. We treasure our peace and quiet and donít want to see that ruined by having kids. We know in advance that we donít want to be surrounded by stinky diapers for several years.

Do people have to go skiing in order to know they donít want to buy skis?

Do people have to buy old coins to know they donít want to be coin collectors?

Do people have to buy houses to know they donít want to live in houses?

These are all simple examples of lifestyle choices which people donít make because they know in advance they donít want to have. It is no different with having children.

But with children, once you have them, you canít give them back if you end up not liking them. That is why it is extremely important to know in advance that you donít want to have them. Remember that Ann Landers survey back in the 1970s in which 70% of the respondents wrote to tell how if they had to ďdo it over again, they would not have have kids?Ē

I hope you are able to retire in a few more years and enjoy spending more time with your family. Can you do that without belittling the choices we childfree made to also retire early?
I'm sorry you feel victimised by my post...that was not my intent. I do however see/hear people wearing a childfree life like a crown. In most cases I find them to be ignorant of the real life experience. Sure many people have kids and regret it...ask the parents of any serial killer.

However, it is nothing like deciding on a piece or furniture or if you want to ski or not. Having kids is like falling in love as a teen, but deeper. Not living this experience is like not wanting to experience a deeper existence....where it becomes more about someone else than yourself. If you don't put yourself out there, you won't get anything back and having kids for me is putting myself out 100% and what has returned (for me) is the most wonderful thing! I know that is not always the case...getting something wonderful back instead of a lot of pain is not guarantied. That's the risk and living in fear of risk is not living life to the fullest.

So what I meant about childless people who are not speaking from experience is that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't had a child. Any hobby certainly would not have been as meaningful and fulfilling...and I have a few hobbies myself.

E86S54
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:11 PM   #163
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I'm sorry you feel victimised by my post...that was not my intent. I do however see/hear people wearing a childfree life like a crown. In most cases I find them to be ignorant of the real life experience. Sure many people have kids and regret it...ask the parents of any serial killer.

However, it is nothing like deciding on a piece or furniture or if you want to ski or not. Having kids is like falling in love as a teen, but deeper. Not living this experience is like not wanting to experience a deeper existence....where it becomes more about someone else than yourself. If you don't put yourself out there, you won't get anything back and having kids for me is putting myself out 100% and what has returned (for me) is the most wonderful thing! I know that is not always the case...getting something wonderful back instead of a lot of pain is not guarantied. That's the risk and living in fear of risk is not living life to the fullest.

So what I meant about childless people who are not speaking from experience is that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't had a child. Any hobby certainly would not have been as meaningful and fulfilling...and I have a few hobbies myself.

E86S54
Once again, you are "bingoing" the childfree, belittling their decision to make that important lifestyle choice.

We childfree wear "a childfree life like a crown" the same way the childed wear their lifestyle choice like a crown. You boasted about how your kids are the best part of your full life. That's fine. So why can't we childfree boast about how being childfree is the best part of our full life? That doesn't make us ignorant of anything. We simply chose to avoid having children, the same we many people avoid making lifestyle choices which we find negative and have absolutely no interest in. If I were a skier, for example, I would not find non-skiers to be ignorant because they chose not to ski.

To us childfree, having kids is nothing more than a man and a woman having unprotected sex with pregnancy as a result. There is nothing romantic or special about it like you say. The birds and the bees do it. So do rats and cats and dogs. We childfree simply have zero interest in experiencing this negative experience. We are not missing out on anything deep. We are missing out on things we find awful. I understand full well that you find having kids a positive and rewarding experience. Please don't superimpose that onto us childfree and say we are "missing out" on something good. That is a "bingo" we childfree we hate hearing because it says to us that we are making an inferior decision. Believe me, we childfree are NOT missing out on anything good for US, or else we WOULD have kids.

And it is precisely because we childfree do NOT have kids that enables us to live life to OUR fullest. That includes pursuing our hobbies and interests, some of which may involve kids (like my school Scrabble volunteer work). To us childfree, we find those very fulfilling in the SAME way you find having kids fulfilling to your life. To say having kids is somehow superior to a childfree person's hobbies and interests is another "bingo", a rude and insulting remark we hear from the childed. Who are you to judge how someone ELSE'S hobbies and interests compare to your having kids?
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:27 PM   #164
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Let's all take a deep breath and, in the spirit of the upcoming holiday, simply be thankful for our lives as they are, either with or without children.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:38 PM   #165
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With all due respect, your post was very insulting to us childfree people.

Your post was a good example of we in the childfree world describe as getting ďbingoedĒ. It is typical of many childed people to stereotype childfree people as having empty lives.

What E86S54 fails to realize is that not everyone wants to have children. Childfree people like me see no positives to having children of our own, only negatives. Childfree people like me are also quite capable of having positive experiences with children without finding it necessary to have them. This is evident by the volunteer work I do as part of the school Scrabble program. That's a hobby, something I treasure a lot. [I have had nightmares about discovering I DID have kids and how awful my life would become. Good-bye to all things I enjoyed having by being childfree.]

We childfree people know in advance that we donít want to see our finances worsened by having kids. We treasure our peace and quiet and donít want to see that ruined by having kids. We know in advance that we donít want to be surrounded by stinky diapers for several years.

Do people have to go skiing in order to know they donít want to buy skis?

Do people have to buy old coins to know they donít want to be coin collectors?

Do people have to buy houses to know they donít want to live in houses?

These are all simple examples of lifestyle choices which people donít make because they know in advance they donít want to have. It is no different with having children.

But with children, once you have them, you canít give them back if you end up not liking them. That is why it is extremely important to know in advance that you donít want to have them. Remember that Ann Landers survey back in the 1970s in which 70% of the respondents wrote to tell how if they had to ďdo it over again, they would not have have kids?Ē

I hope you are able to retire in a few more years and enjoy spending more time with your family. Can you do that without belittling the choices we childfree made to also retire early?
Not about to argue with you.

The world needs more people like you. Keep up the good work.
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Old 11-25-2009, 04:18 AM   #166
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I knew since I was 20 years old that I never wanted kids. It is the main reason I was able to retire last year at the age of 45. My life would be soooooo miserable if I had kids.
Just curious, help me understand how you stumbled across this old thread......

I note you joined this board by having one of your first posts be the re-opening of this old thread regarding having children or not. Did you find this board by using a search engine looking for that subject and it led you to this thread? Then you joined so you could re-open the thread and post to it?
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Old 11-25-2009, 07:11 AM   #167
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Youbet, I joined this board after being given a link to it from someone else at another ER/Investing board. I made several posts here over a few days related to ER before I decided to do a search within this forum for "childfree". After I found that once-busy thread, I decided to reopen it by replying to it.
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Old 11-25-2009, 08:28 AM   #168
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To us childfree, having kids is nothing more than a man and a woman having unprotected sex with pregnancy as a result. There is nothing romantic or special about it like you say. The birds and the bees do it. So do rats and cats and dogs. We childfree simply have zero interest in experiencing this negative experience. We are not missing out on anything deep. We are missing out on things we find awful.
I hope you're just pissed at me and that's not really what you think.

Late one night last year on a Caribbean sailing trip, we swam in a warm sea with phosphorescent plankton and a clear sky full of stars with the southern cross low on the horizon...or I could say that we swam with gross little organisms in the dark. Nothing special or romantic about that.

What I'm trying to say is that it takes the experience to really know and feel it. I'm not saying that other undertakings (such as hobbies or volunteering) cannot be fulfilling (and I do both). But looking back, by far the most fulfilling has been my family and in the end, I believe that’s all there is. You don't have to agree, but I would like people who are unsure to understand this possibility.

With regards to ER, you can have both ER and kids if you really want it. Can it be more difficult…sure, but it can also be more rewarding.
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Old 11-25-2009, 09:30 AM   #169
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Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that, the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
two roads diverged in a wood, and I --
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

=============

It can be hard to know what one path in life would have led to if you took a different path. And there are myriad paths in life. Unfortunately we only get to choose one at a time.

If I get "scrabblered" by being accused of "bingoing" for posting this poem, can you at least pay me the kind favor of providing the etymology of the phrase "bingo" or "bingoing" as it relates to the child-free realm? Thanks!
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:33 AM   #170
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Ah, yes, Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken." We practically had to memorize it in grade school. I never really appreciated his poems as a child but he grew on me.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:06 AM   #171
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So what I meant about childless people who are not speaking from experience is that I wouldn't have known if I hadn't had a child.

E86S54

Seems to me you should look to your own statement. You have NO experience being childless so what do you know of the experience.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:42 AM   #172
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I think it's a wise decision for those people who don't want children to not have any. There is nobody more abusive often than people feeling "forced" to raise kids they didn't want in the first place. One reason I am so pro-abortion is I've seen this over and over and experienced it in the first person.
I have huge empathy for the children of these situations, and have often wondered if there was any way I could start some organization for these kids but haven't come up with anything.

Don't want kids? Don't feel you "have" to have them. You don't. Everyone is better off then...trust me.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:10 PM   #173
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Seems to me you should look to your own statement. You have NO experience being childless so what do you know of the experience.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I spot a failure of logic here.

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Don't want kids? Don't feel you "have" to have them. You don't. Everyone is better off then...trust me.
Agree. Hell, even folks who DO want kids often make lousy parents, nevermind the ones who actively DON'T want 'em.

I have 2 now, but was ambivalent about having kids. DW emphatically did NOT want kids, and I was cool with that. After she turned 35, she changed her mind. I love my kids, and certainly wouldn't send them back if I could, but I would have been perfectly happy if we'd been childless. To each their own.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:15 PM   #174
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I spot a failure of logic here.


I'm all ears... explain away.

But poster said those without children can't comment on what it is like to have kids. I agree, but people with kids CANNOT comment on what it is like to NOT have kids.

But knock yourself out explaining the failure of logic in my comment.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:22 PM   #175
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Seems to me you should look to your own statement. You have NO experience being childless so what do you know of the experience.
I was child-less til my mid 30's,does that count?
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:25 PM   #176
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I'm all ears... explain away.

But poster said those without children can't comment on what it is like to have kids. I agree, but people with kids CANNOT comment on what it is like to NOT have kids.

But knock yourself out explaining the failure of logic in my comment.
OK, here goes. I was married for 9 years before having kids. So I CAN comment on what it's like to live childfree, because I did it.

Really, unless one had kids extremely young, most parents have some life experience as a childless adult.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:29 PM   #177
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I think it's a wise decision for those people who don't want children to not have any. There is nobody more abusive often than people feeling "forced" to raise kids they didn't want in the first place. One reason I am so pro-abortion is I've seen this over and over and experienced it in the first person.
I have huge empathy for the children of these situations, and have often wondered if there was any way I could start some organization for these kids but haven't come up with anything.

Don't want kids? Don't feel you "have" to have them. You don't. Everyone is better off then...trust me.
I think a lot of folks confuse "childless" with "hate kids", and that's not fair. My sister was a doting aunt who never had kids of her own. A few folks I know never had kids and decided not to adopt. Their lives seem as full as anyone elses.

There are plenty of folks who had kids that probably should not have..........we all know a few of those..........

I got married late and had kid's late, so in that regard I am kinda like CFB.........

DW and I call such eras: "BK" (before Kids) and "AK" (after kids). We have enjoyed both journeys, since although we have been married for 14 years, we have been together for 23.........
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:39 PM   #178
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OK, here goes. I was married for 9 years before having kids. So I CAN comment on what it's like to live childfree, because I did it.

Really, unless one had kids extremely young, most parents have some life experience as a childless adult.

We are a sum of ALL our experiences. You cannot judge what your life would be like today based upon your experiences of x number of years ago. That view is influenced by ALL that happened in between. So, NO, I do not think you know what it is like to live your life without children.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:45 PM   #179
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I'm all ears... explain away.

But poster said those without children can't comment on what it is like to have kids. I agree, but people with kids CANNOT comment on what it is like to NOT have kids.

But knock yourself out explaining the failure of logic in my comment.
For the first 7 years of my adult life, I knew what it was like to NOT have kids. I was quite expert at it. Now for the last 5 years I know what it is like to have kids. Now you see the logical fallacy?

To take it to extremes, let's say a fertile octogenarian fathers a child at age 89. He had a good solid 7 decades of NOT having kids, and then he has experience having kids post birth of his child.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:46 PM   #180
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Ah, yes, Robert Frost's "The Road Not Taken." We practically had to memorize it in grade school. I never really appreciated his poems as a child but he grew on me.
I don't think you can really appreciate it until you have some years on you. That was my experience at least.
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