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Old 12-19-2011, 02:34 PM   #81
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Personally I think it is a stretch to assume because he has had this fling which he is acknowledging, to go to thinking he is a serial offender. I think some men can so easily be led to the dark side (and women as well). A bit of flattery from the stalker, more attention than they may be getting at home and before they know it they are in over their head.

The question I ask is before you found out this did you want to stay married to this man? Are his faults so great that there can be no saving this marriage? I think you owe it to yourself to try marriage counselling.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:39 PM   #82
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Marathoner,
I am a guy, but went though something similar about 15 years ago when I was 29. In my case my ex-wife and I had a one year old daughter when she decided to have an affair with her co-worker and asked for the divorce. Because I thought we were happily married and had no indications she was unhappy, I was floored by the news of the affair. I made the mistake of dwelling on it for WAY TOO LONG. I started drinking too much and feeling sorry for myself. It was almost 3 years before I started feeling normal again. Do not let this happen to you and seek professional counseling to help yourself work through the emotions. I was to proud to do so.

My desire for FIRE and spending less than we made was a major reason for the divorce in my case. My ex did not like "budgets" or saving for the future when there were things she wanted now! In hindsight I realize that our mistake was not talking about finances, future plans and retirement dreams BEFORE getting married. So my only advice for the next person you may get serious with is to make sure you on the same page with all the financial stuff before getting married again.

Also, strongly recommend changing the locks once he moves out and immediatly running credit reports to view any potential financial surprises that might be out there.

You have a very good case for alimony. In my state the general rule of thumb is you receive one year of alimony for every 3 years you were married.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:53 PM   #83
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You've been given so much good advice and I don't have anything to add but I wish you the absolute best....you deserve nothing less than that!


(and I have to agree with "make him feel the pain"...just sayin')
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:29 PM   #84
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OK, now it is time to get to work. First, I recommend you read two books written by people who spent their lives studying affairs:

Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

and

Surviving an Affair by Harley.

Keep in mind that people in affairs are in huge denial of reality. They will twist their view of reality to justify the affair. They are so good at it they will have you wondering what is wrong with you! These books will help you understand what is going on, and help you protect yourself, regardless of how things turn out.

You have all my sympathy and understanding. Stay strong.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:36 PM   #85
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You might also watch the movie "Revenge of the Middle Aged Woman" with Christina Lahti. While you are not Rose's age (the character in the movie), there are plenty of laughs and lots of situations to relate to.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:38 PM   #86
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(and I have to agree with "make him feel the pain"...just sayin')
Absolutely! The other woman must be responsible for meeting ALL his emotional needs at this point.
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:27 PM   #87
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The question I ask is before you found out this did you want to stay married to this man? Are his faults so great that there can be no saving this marriage? I think you owe it to yourself to try marriage counselling.
I was very happy and thought we'd be together forever. I still think we could make it work; however, we both have to agree to try. We went to one marriage counseling appointment, which went well, but he's since decided to leave me for his coworker. I can't change his mind. And, even if he were to try, he's going to see her at work every day for the next 18 months. From what I've read, the infatuation he has for her is like a drug, so there's a high chance of this reoccurring since there's no way to go no contact.

Things did not go as well at the lawyer's office as I would have liked. I think I will make appointments with a few other lawyers to see what they have to say.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:45 PM   #88
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Am I the only one who thinks the scumbag is a psychopath?
psychopath: a mentally ill or unstable person; especially : a person affected with antisocial personality disorder
sociopathic: of, relating to, or characterized by asocial or antisocial behavior or exhibiting antisocial personality disorder
Seems to fit.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:50 PM   #89
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Keep going until you find a lawyer who has fire in his/her belly for your interests and has a track record of effective representation.

IMHO don't discuss why you think your husband has done this with your attorney, don't psychoanalyze him. As others have mentioned your situation is not unusual. Tell tell your lawyer that you have not violated your marriage vows, there is no history of domestic violence (assuming that is true). Divorce law can be a risky practice.

Also, don't get involved in his employment picture.. you want him to earn the money he owes you.

After this is over your layoff may be a blessing. Move to another community.

In my youth I dated a guy who started giving me grief. He said I had problems so I went to a psychologist for a second opinion. After a few sessions he asked me if I would consider moving to ditch him and said, "Three thousand miles is not too far." Putting miles between that suitor and myself was likely, literally, a life saver.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:04 PM   #90
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I don't believe this is what Marathoner was thinking of; I imagine she just wants her 70K (or most of it) back, which is fair.
I completely agree that this is fair. Marathoner seems to be a realistic, kind person.

Ha
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:12 PM   #91
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I completely agree that this is fair. Marathoner seems to be a realistic, kind person.

Ha

I'm sure she is, if it were me I wouldn't be so nice. I'd want a lot more that the 70K back. Guess I'm just not a nice and kind person.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:27 PM   #92
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I'm sure she is, if it were me I wouldn't be so nice. I'd want a lot more that the 70K back. Guess I'm just not a nice and kind person.
If it were me, he would be out the door already, the locks would be changed, and I would be armed while shopping for a sex crazed rhino on bad acid type lawyer.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:07 PM   #93
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And, even if he were to try, he's going to see her at work every day for the next 18 months. From what I've read, the infatuation he has for her is like a drug, so there's a high chance of this reoccurring since there's no way to go no contact.
This is a definite NO-NO. If the marriage is to be saved he must send he letter telling her to NEVER contact him again, and then all contact must stop even if it means changing jobs. If she contacts him, then he must immediately tell you and you can both tell her to stop. All if this assumes he want to be married. At this point, it sounds like he is in the fog of the affair and thus is not thinking straight.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:34 PM   #94
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This is a definite NO-NO. If the marriage is to be saved he must send he letter telling her to NEVER contact him again, and then all contact must stop even if it means changing jobs. If she contacts him, then he must immediately tell you and you can both tell her to stop. All if this assumes he want to be married. At this point, it sounds like he is in the fog of the affair and thus is not thinking straight.
He's definitely still in the fog. I mean, he claims to only have started having feelings for her in the beginning of November. He is infatuated and throwing away a great relationship. He doesn't want to work on it. I believe he will regret his decision, and I am hopeful that ultimately I will be happier without him.

I did send him a FAQ about what a wayward spouse is going through, the fog, etc., but he hasn't read it yet and is so infatuated I doubt he will. I don't want to be anyone's second choice, so even if he came crawling back at this point, it's too late.

I mean, if his dream is to w*rk 60 hours per week, maybe we weren't as well-matched as I thought.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:39 PM   #95
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Marathoner, no children? Then, it's a lot easier to end a marriage. Whatever you do, good luck. And please read those books i recommended. And go to a divorce recovery group also. It will help you understand what is happening.
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:43 PM   #96
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Mediation works if both parties will agree to it.
This can be true, but you should have a strong lawyer on your side and know what your options and position are BEFORE you try mediation. The knowledge is vitally important. If you do not know your typical results if mediation fails, then you will not know what is reasonable to expect from mediation. I've heard many horror stories of people being bamboozled into believing that a settlement was reasonable, when in fact they were owed much much more. Once they agreed to the mediated deal, they were stuck and the more prepared spouse got a much better deal.

Please consider, that the cost of Med School is not all you are out. You also spent time with whatever career you want on hold while supporting him, as well as the time value of all that support and mutual expense for the years you were breadwinner. Compounded over future years, this is a lot more cost to you than $70K. The idea isn't to punish him. The idea is to arrange financial compensation so each party achieves approximately equal standard of living both current and in a reasonable future - and that should account for both your past support as well as his future potential.

Having a very scary lawyer in the background can be good incentive for him to behave in mediation and not make unfair demands. Don't underestimate the self-serving and unreasonable suggestions he or his lawyers may make. They can make bad choice sound appealing, so you need to have your own trusted counsel.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:02 AM   #97
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Am I the only one who thinks the scumbag is a psychopath?
I suspect narcissistic personality disorder. Unfortunately it's quite common in physicians. Do any of these items ring a bell?

Thomas suggests that narcissists typically display most, sometimes all, of the following traits:
  • An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
  • Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
  • A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
  • Difficulty with empathy
  • Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
  • Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
  • Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
  • Haughty body language
  • Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
  • Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
  • Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
  • Pretending to be more important than they really are
  • Bragging (subtley but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
  • Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
  • Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
  • Denial of remorse and gratitude

Narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:40 AM   #98
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I suspect narcissistic personality disorder. Unfortunately it's quite common in physicians. Do any of these items ring a bell?



Thomas suggests that narcissists typically display most, sometimes all, of the following traits:
  • An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
  • Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
  • A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
  • Difficulty with empathy
  • Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
  • Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
  • Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
  • Haughty body language
  • Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
  • Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
  • Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
  • Pretending to be more important than they really are
  • Bragging (subtley but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
  • Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
  • Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
  • Denial of remorse and gratitude
Narcissism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You may have forgotten to mention the horns and cloven hooves.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:38 AM   #99
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You single guys, note how fast posters, including the men, jump all over the husband, and make very aggressive money grabbing suggestions, notwithstanding that we know almost nothing about the rest of the story.

And this is not just this board; this is American society. You cannot change it, but you can avoid it, or perhaps abort it even if you are already married, if you are not already wealthy or do not have a very high paying job.

Do you want to post an unlimited bond, to be paid on demand to the woman that you are divorcing from, for whatever reason? Do you want the person that you have loved to set out to try the tricks suggested in this thread? Could this poison your attitude toward women? Will you perhaps look at your bride and think, hmm, I sure hope that I will forever fit her wishes, desires and fantasies, whatever they may become, or else I am public enemy #1, and she is the prosecutor?

Is there any freedom at all in this? Nope, it is just punishment for not staying the course, a course that you may not have much interest in anymore. Is it possible that people change, both men and women? Note that your wife can lose interest in you, and this will generally be taken to be your fault also.

Also note that the big justification for this woman-first bias is usually "It's for the children!" And where are the children in this case, or in many other cases?

Consider that however much you may like women, love women, respect women, it may be to your best interests to avoid letting one of them get a strong grip on your most tender parts.

Ha
Ha, this is not just American society, this is Western society in general.

I do sympathise in this case with the OP who put her husband through medical school.

However, how many men worked for years whilst the wife stayed at home (of her own choosing) such that the wife never earnt an income, and then the husband is penalised on top of it when the divorce occurs - ie. wife gets a greater share of the asset pool, wife requires an ongoing income from the ex husband, as she is deemed to have a greater need and less future earning potential. I was certainly one of those husbands.

Let's face it, all of us are on this forum because we want to be financially independent and/or retire early. Unfortunately when growing up, no one seems to tell you that the most devastating financial mistake you can make is your choice in husband or wife. In Australia, this extends beyond marraige to live in partner now, as laws have been introduced such that once you are living together, you are considered effectively equal to married from a legal/financial perspective - ie. lawyers can be engaged to seek up to half the others worth when the relationship ends, as well as spousal support (what you call alimony in the US).

So my only advice now to anyone who cares to listen (and they do) is that if you have an interest in becoming financially independent or retiring early, and wish to get married or have a live in partner, then make sure:

- he/she has equal or more assets (and that these assets are legally held in their name, not someone elses name or some legal entity that renders the asset "untouchable")
- he/she has equal or more income generating potential
- he/she is prepared to generate that income for the same amount of time (ie not just stay at home and not work once together)
- he/she has similar spending and financial habits/desires

Doesnt sound very romantic does it !

But these are the cold hard facts for those of us that are FIRE inclined. I just wish someone had been able to tell me this before I ventured down that path.

But in consolation to the OP, the future can be better. I have never been able to save as much money as I do now, or earn as much money as I do now, or have had as much money in the bank as I do now, since my divorce. All because I have been able to focus on my career with the promotions/increased income that have come with that, and rid myself of the out of control spending habits that I had to put up with in order to please my wife and keep my marraige together.

End of rant.

Good luck with it all Marathoner, and one very big bonus is that you didnt have children so eventually you can remove all ties if that is how it pans out.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:10 AM   #100
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Hi Marathoner,

I've tried to keep up with this thread, and I wish you all the best...

If the experiences I have gained by personally witnessing/helping a handful of close friends (both female and male) through similar situations hold true in your case, you will be fine.

Stronger... less trusting... more independent... but fine.

From your "name" I can only guess that you keep physically active. That's good... keep it up... physical activity will be one of your best weapons against melancholia. (running, cycling and yoga work for me.)

My only other advice has been echoed my many others...

- Find the best representation you can.
- Surround yourself with friends (real friends... not just "haters" who will live vicariously through you to spit vile at your ex)

You'll move on much more quickly by shedding the emotional ties (both positive and negative) that you've invested in your husband. Easier said than done, to be sure.

Best wishes

Note: Pets can also be terrific therapeutic companions. If you've always wanted a dog, consider visiting an adoption center (but only if you're up to the commitment).
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