Honda Very Disappointing

[HadEnuff]

Last October DW and I bought for her a new '17 Honda CR-V.

As it turns out, the engine in this particular vehicle has been identified as having a problem with introducing gasoline into the oil.

People are noticing that the oil level is raised, on the dipstick. It has been confirmed that the added volume is coming from gasoline. People are being advised to keep a close eye on the oil level. Indeed we noticed ours being elevated, in October, before it was actually due for a change. We brought it in to Honda, they said "yep, you have gas in the oil",, they also said Honda knows about it, but hasn't offered any fix on it, and is basically trying to deny it's much of a problem.
Some of the suggestions/explanations:
1. It's because the engine hasn't had sufficient time to warm up. This is typical of this type of engine, but as you run it and it warms up, the gasoline will burn off.

2. It's a cold weather issue. If you are running multiple short trips in cold weather you might see this, but it's not a problem. Just run the car long enough to warm up.

Gee, nice work, Honda. As it turns out, we live in the country, and our shortest trip anywhere is 15 miles at 60mph, and we live an hour at 65mph from the dealer, so when they saw the vehicle it was plenty warmed up. Also, if the gasoline is going to "burn off", why is the oil level raised? What a crock.

I now have 2 months and 1,000 miles on the latest oil, Honda's synthetic (costs an arm and a leg, but hey, I want the best for my Honda, right?) and the level is elevated, the oil is black and runny and stinks of gasoline. I've contacted the dealer and they sent me a link to a video produced my Honda, explaining points 1 and 2 above.
However, they are providing a "fix" for this problem that doesn't exist. Turns out it's a software fix. It will be available in my state (NY) soon, however they aren't even providing the fix in some states, despite having known cases of the problem in those states.

What in the heck is wrong with Honda?

 

[street]

When a fuel injector is stuck open, the fuel will flood out. Gasoline will definitely get into the oil when this is the case. If the fuel pressure in your car is too high, that may cause gasoline to get into the engine oil. Gas could also leak into your intake manifold if there is a carburetor problem. A cracked manifold could also be the problem. It is not a good thing because diluting oil with gas can do permanent damage to engine. IMO

 

[Jerry1]

Sorry for your problem. Unfortunately, it shows that any manufacturer can have issues. I worked with a lady that bought a Subaru with kind of the opposite problem. Her car would burn oil. They tried to say it was normal, but adding a quart between normal oil change intervals is not normal at all. They never did anything. She, like you, found out after the fact that many people had the same problem. She ended up getting rid of a practically new car. I suggest the same for you. It will hurt, but take your pain now and move on with your life.

Does your state have a lemon law? Will the dealer give you a really good trade in on a model with a different engine? Does the dealer sell different manufacturers that you’d consider? Financially, working with the dealer could get your best outcome. If money is no object, go trade it in on a Lexis.

 

[HadEnuff]

Sorry for your problem. Unfortunately, it shows that any manufacturer can have issues. I worked with a lady that bought a Subaru with kind of the opposite problem. Her car would burn oil. They tried to say it was normal, but adding a quart between normal oil change intervals is not normal at all. They never did anything. She, like you, found out after the fact that many people had the same problem. She ended up getting rid of a practically new car. I suggest the same for you. It will hurt, but take your pain now and move on with your life.

Does your state have a lemon law? Will the dealer give you a really good trade in on a model with a different engine? Does the dealer sell different manufacturers that you’d consider? Financially, working with the dealer could get your best outcome. If money is no object, go trade it in on a Lexis.

I'm certainly considering this. I agree, any manufacturer can have a problem. The good ones, and I thought this included Honda, step up, and try to make it right.

 

[DFDubb]

When a fuel injector is stuck open, the fuel will flood out. Gasoline will definitely get into the oil when this is the case. If the fuel pressure in your car is too high, that may cause gasoline to get into the engine oil. Gas could also leak into your intake manifold if there is a carburetor problem. A cracked manifold could also be the problem. It is not a good thing because diluting oil with gas can do permanent damage to engine. IMO

The issue the OP is dealing with is a design flaw impacting their 1.5L turbo engines. I feel bad for the OP as it looks like Honda is not going to do right by their customers and will continue to offer band aid fixes (software updates, free/discounted more frequent oil changes, etc.....).

Honda is well aware of this issue (China banned the sale of this engine) and it looks like they're not going to do much, if anything, to make their customers whole again. Personally, I'd be looking to get out of this vehicle. Honda has made it's intentions pretty clear on what it's going to do. Try as you might, I'd bet you get nowhere with them and only add to your frustration every time you go to get in this car.

 

[NYEXPAT]

Thanks for the PSA! I will be buying two cars next year and will cross these off my list!

 

[VanWinkle]

I own a 2016 CRV with the standard 2.4 fuel injected motor. I have decided that if I buy another CRV, it will be the LX so I can get the same motor and avoid the possible problems with the 1.5 turbo. Maybe by then they will either fix the problem, or offer the 2.4 in the complete line of CRVs.

I am sorry you are fighting this problem, and I would also check into lemon laws.

 

[ncbill]

Is it too late to buy Honda's (OEM) extended powertrain warranty?

That's what I'd do if I planned on keeping the vehicle.

BTW, Honda has a history of ignoring the problems with its vehicles.

15+ years ago they had a big problem with the auto trannies on their V6 vehicles, and essentially told customers "too bad" if they needed replacement out of warranty (one poster I read claimed they had to replace the transmission in their Odyssey three times before it reached 100,000 miles)

 

[VanWinkle]

Last October DW and I bought for her a new '17 Honda CR-V.

As it turns out, the engine in this particular vehicle has been identified as having a problem with introducing gasoline into the oil.

People are noticing that the oil level is raised, on the dipstick. It has been confirmed that the added volume is coming from gasoline. People are being advised to keep a close eye on the oil level. Indeed we noticed ours being elevated, in October, before it was actually due for a change. We brought it in to Honda, they said "yep, you have gas in the oil",, they also said Honda knows about it, but hasn't offered any fix on it, and is basically trying to deny it's much of a problem.
Some of the suggestions/explanations:
1. It's because the engine hasn't had sufficient time to warm up. This is typical of this type of engine, but as you run it and it warms up, the gasoline will burn off.

2. It's a cold weather issue. If you are running multiple short trips in cold weather you might see this, but it's not a problem. Just run the car long enough to warm up.

Gee, nice work, Honda. As it turns out, we live in the country, and our shortest trip anywhere is 15 miles at 60mph, and we live an hour at 65mph from the dealer, so when they saw the vehicle it was plenty warmed up. Also, if the gasoline is going to "burn off", why is the oil level raised? What a crock.

I now have 2 months and 1,000 miles on the latest oil, Honda's synthetic (costs an arm and a leg, but hey, I want the best for my Honda, right?) and the level is elevated, the oil is black and runny and stinks of gasoline. I've contacted the dealer and they sent me a link to a video produced my Honda, explaining points 1 and 2 above.
However, they are providing a "fix" for this problem that doesn't exist. Turns out it's a software fix. It will be available in my state (NY) soon, however they aren't even providing the fix in some states, despite having known cases of the problem in those states.

What in the heck is wrong with Honda?

Here is an extensive discussion at Bogleheads:


https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=244271

 

[FIYes]

Yikes! I just bought a 2018 CR V with a 1.5 turbo engine! I never buy the extended warranty but this thread has me wondering.

 

[Moemg]

I had a 2010 Honda CRV . The air conditioning system went at 34,000 miles . It was a design flaw that Honda knew about but decided to ignore . I also had paint coming off in clomps . Honda knew about this problem also and did nothing . That was my first and last experience with Honda . I traded the car in for a Toyota Rav4 .

 

[Midpack]

I am sorry to hear about the OP's experience but it's hardly representative.

But I'd go with Consumer Reports with respect to reliability for any carmaker, not a few (one) random issues. How do you know if it's a trend or an exception. We've owned 4 Hondas and my parents have had 3, and they were all outstanding cars. DW is about to buy a '19 Accord, and we're not worried one bit.

 

[FIYes]

I had a Honda Accord that I kept for 11 years and it was a good workhorse of a car. That was one thing that drew me to look at Honda this time. My Accord ownership. was in the late nineties and early two thousands. I hope other CR V owners will join this thread.

 

[CaptTom]

Many years ago, I bought my first new car. A Ford Escort. It was kind of a crappy little car, but it fit my needs, and budget, at the time.

Turns out there was a known problem with those engines, too. The head was made of aluminum, and the block cast iron. When heated, those two metals expanded at different rates and blew out the head gasket. There had been a recall on an earlier model, because in certain conditions it could cause a fire. They fixed the source of the fire, but not the problem of the head gasket blowing out.

Since having a seized engine was not a safety issue (a car can't get in an accident if it can't be driven!) they didn't have to issue a recall on MY vehicle.

Replacement heads were unobtainable at any price; every one of these vehicles needed one.

The dealer laughed in my face, telling me it was my own fault for buying such a cheap car. I guess they'd forgotten how the salesman who sold it to me had told me what a great car it was.

I never went back to that dealer, even though they're about a mile from my house, and my car purchases over the years became gradually more upscale. I also never bought another new Ford.

No doubt you could substitute any car manufacturer's name and find a similar story. But it's good to get that one off my chest. Thanks!

 

[street]

I have had a few Honda's and still have a civic I just love. Great mileage and it is a "08" and have had NO issues. The turbo engine is the issue and problem and not all Honda products should be thrown in that mix. IMO

 

[Big_Hitter]

trade it in for a new forester

 

[Sunset]

I have a Toyota Sienna 2015. It LEAKED oil from day 1.
First oil change the dealer tells me it's leaking oil, so I get them to fix it (4 days in shop).
It still leaks oil.

I put a pan under it. I collect about 3 oz of oil every 6 months.

 

[38Chevy454]

The issue the OP is dealing with is a design flaw impacting their 1.5L turbo engines. I feel bad for the OP as it looks like Honda is not going to do right by their customers and will continue to offer band aid fixes (software updates, free/discounted more frequent oil changes, etc.....).

Honda is well aware of this issue (China banned the sale of this engine) and it looks like they're not going to do much, if anything, to make their customers whole again. Personally, I'd be looking to get out of this vehicle. Honda has made it's intentions pretty clear on what it's going to do. Try as you might, I'd bet you get nowhere with them and only add to your frustration every time you go to get in this car.

Being an engineer, I am always looking for the root cause of a problem. This is exactly right above, it is a design issue and the root cause will not be fixed by the band aid fixes. The bad aid fixes are what is known as treating the symptoms, not providing a corrective action that actually addresses the root cause.


Honda has skated along many years with known problems, like the transmission issue mentioned. All manufacturer have problems that do not get detected and fixed during development and testing before production. The good ones take responsibility. Honda is not one the best for this, good thing they build generally good quality vehicles. I am not a Honda fanboy with ultimate praise.


For OP, I see the issue as either live with it; or trade the vehicle off for a different make or model. There does not seem to be any true corrective action fix to the root cause of the problem at this time.

 

[HadEnuff]

trade it in for a new forester

The car DW had before this one was a Subaru we bought because of their reputed reliability. We wound up with the one of the models that had head gasket problems, and had to go through a new head gasket replacement at 80K miles. This was a well documented problem with these Subarus.

Subaru did not step up to the plate on this either. No more Subbies for us.

 

[HadEnuff]

I am sorry to hear about the OP's experience but it's hardly representative.

But I'd go with Consumer Reports with respect to reliability for any carmaker, not a few (one) random issues. How do you know if it's a trend or an exception. We've owned 4 Hondas and my parents have had 3, and they were all outstanding cars. DW is about to buy a '19 Accord, and we're not worried one bit.

It's not representative of all Honda models, for sure. But it is representative of how they accept responsibility for a dud. Everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do after you realize you've made one that separates us.
Honda knows they have sold a lot of duds, and they don't want to do the proper thing about it.
I anticipate the class action suits will be flying soon. This is a lot of money spread out over a lot of cars and a lot of people.

 

[Another Reader]

I would not touch a turbo. I would only consider the CRV LX, which still has the 2.4 L 4 cylinder. Not going to look at an Accord when the next replacement is due because of the turbo issue.

I would advise Midpack's DW to have a look at the new generation Camry. The Honda turbo has serious design flaws and she will not be happy with it.

 

[HadEnuff]

One thing I have decided is that I'm through buying new cars. From now on I'll lease them, and if something like this happens, or what happened with the Subaru, I can just turn it back in at the end of the lease. Seems like cheap insurance on a 30 or 40 K investment.

 

[Big_Hitter]

From now on I'll lease them, and if something like this happens, or what happened with the Subaru, .

did you forget to check the oil?

 

[HadEnuff]

did you forget to check the oil?

what? This isn't about forgetting to check the oil, it's about checking the oil and finding it overfull, and contaminated with gasoline.

This isn't unique to my car, this is universal among this model, in the US, Canada, and China.

In China, the Chinese government MADE Honda recall all of these cars.

 

[ERD50]

Being an engineer, I am always looking for the root cause of a problem. This is exactly right above, it is a design issue and the root cause will not be fixed by the band aid fixes. The bad aid fixes are what is known as treating the symptoms, not providing a corrective action that actually addresses the root cause.


Honda has skated along many years with known problems, like the transmission issue mentioned. All manufacturer have problems that do not get detected and fixed during development and testing before production. The good ones take responsibility. Honda is not one the best for this, good thing they build generally good quality vehicles. I am not a Honda fanboy with ultimate praise.


For OP, I see the issue as either live with it; or trade the vehicle off for a different make or model. There does not seem to be any true corrective action fix to the root cause of the problem at this time.

I came across talk of this problem a few weeks ago. It seems to be related to the direct injection dumping too much gas in while cold. And Honda says a side effect of the high efficiency is that the engine stays cold longer.

Are you sure there is no fix? I heard there was some tweaking of the direct injection, and I wonder if they can do something to speed warm up?

I also read that Honda was recommending to drive it longer once in a while if you take short trips. Ironic, they design for high MPG to save gas, then ask you to waste gas with longer trips and longer warm up!

PREEMPTIVE STRIKE: Before any EV fans point this out as an issue with the complexity of the ICE, keep some perspective - this is a specific problem with a specific model. It would be like painting all EVs as bad based on the battery life problems of the Leaf in the Arizona heat.

-ERD50