Horrifying
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Great news, Eagle! Congratulations.
Regarding W, OK ... it's all his fault. But, just curious ... the Democrats held the White House for 8 years ... why didn't they raise the levees, and solve a problem that has been noted for what ... decades? Study the issue, and it's obvious there are lots of government fools to blame, as well as private citizens.
This management disaster started at the local, parish and state level, and the fed's didn't help much. Disgusting. Looking forward to the investigation ... should be another political football ...
Regarding W, OK ... it's all his fault. But, just curious ... the Democrats held the White House for 8 years ... why didn't they raise the levees, and solve a problem that has been noted for what ... decades? Study the issue, and it's obvious there are lots of government fools to blame, as well as private citizens.
This management disaster started at the local, parish and state level, and the fed's didn't help much. Disgusting. Looking forward to the investigation ... should be another political football ...
brewer12345
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Eagle43 said:
Excellent news! If there is anything we can do to help, just say so. One of the most frustrating things is to watch the tragedy going on and not be able to do anything.
brewer12345
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I am more than a little disturbed by the "let them eat cake" attitude the administration seems to have displayed. We even seem to have our own, modern-day Marie Antoinette:
"Did New Yorkers chase Condoleezza Rice back to Washington yesterday?
Like President Bush, the Secretary of State has been on vacation during the Hurricane Katrina crisis, with Rice enjoying her downtime in New York Wednesday and yesterday. The cabinet member's responsibilities are usually international, but her timing contributed to the "fiddling while Rome burns" impression given by her boss during the disaster, which may have claimed thousands of lives.
On Wednesday night, Secretary Rice was booed by some audience members at "Spamalot!," the Monty Python musical at the Shubert, when the lights went up after the performance.
Yesterday, Rice went shopping at Ferragamo on Fifth Ave. According to the Web site www.Gawker.com, the 50-year-old bought "several thousand dollars' worth of shoes" at the pricey leather-goods boutique.
A fellow shopper shouted, "How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless!" - presumably referring to Louisiana and Mississippi."
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/342712p-292600c.html
"Did New Yorkers chase Condoleezza Rice back to Washington yesterday?
Like President Bush, the Secretary of State has been on vacation during the Hurricane Katrina crisis, with Rice enjoying her downtime in New York Wednesday and yesterday. The cabinet member's responsibilities are usually international, but her timing contributed to the "fiddling while Rome burns" impression given by her boss during the disaster, which may have claimed thousands of lives.
On Wednesday night, Secretary Rice was booed by some audience members at "Spamalot!," the Monty Python musical at the Shubert, when the lights went up after the performance.
Yesterday, Rice went shopping at Ferragamo on Fifth Ave. According to the Web site www.Gawker.com, the 50-year-old bought "several thousand dollars' worth of shoes" at the pricey leather-goods boutique.
A fellow shopper shouted, "How dare you shop for shoes while thousands are dying and homeless!" - presumably referring to Louisiana and Mississippi."
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/342712p-292600c.html
According to a discussion I heard on the radio this morning, Clinton found FEMA in a mess when he took office. Both Republicans and Democrats on the show's panel gave him a great deal of credit for fixing the organization, getting long term plans in place, and starting to take some action. Apparently, the New Orleans levees were one of the long term plans scheduled to have started last year (I believe?).Charles said:
But Clinton's big failure is missing the opportunity to direct more of the surplus the country produced during his terms into projects like this one. Instead, he left a big pile of cash for Bush to give away to his rich friends.
REWahoo
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give
Here's an interesting bit from a guy by the name of John Thacker:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/09/katrina-politics.html
So, several articles (especially in the New York Times and Chicago Tribune) make it clear that the levees were not engineered to withstand a storm of this size. Indeed, additional money would have made no difference, since it was a recently repaired and reinforced (up to the level that they were planning) levee which broke.
Given that, the city should have been evacuated earlier. (Obvious in hindsight now-- how much did previous near-misses and predictions that didn't come true at the last minute like Ivan affect things?) At least on Saturday, when the President pre-declared it a disaster area, there should have been an evacuation order. Why did the mayor wait until late Sunday? According to the LA Times, Greyhound already stopped running Saturday night, to protect their employees. The trains couldn't run, as the tracks go by and on the levees. The flights were canceled. There was no way that all the tourists and people without cars could get out. Just no way.
As far as the rescue goes, I don't know exactly when the governor asked for federal troops; that request was necessary under the Posse Comitatus Act. The Louisiana National Guard, 3/4ths of which, including their Engineers (though not the Combat Engineers, whose duties are different) were in the state and other states quickly offered their troops. Yet the delay and organization seemed slow.
It seems that everyone was taken by surprise with how the storm seemed to be averted at the last second, yet the levee then broke later. More damningly, there seems to have been no real plan for rescuing people who couldn't get out. The chain of command still doesn't seem clear.
REW
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/09/katrina-politics.html
So, several articles (especially in the New York Times and Chicago Tribune) make it clear that the levees were not engineered to withstand a storm of this size. Indeed, additional money would have made no difference, since it was a recently repaired and reinforced (up to the level that they were planning) levee which broke.
Given that, the city should have been evacuated earlier. (Obvious in hindsight now-- how much did previous near-misses and predictions that didn't come true at the last minute like Ivan affect things?) At least on Saturday, when the President pre-declared it a disaster area, there should have been an evacuation order. Why did the mayor wait until late Sunday? According to the LA Times, Greyhound already stopped running Saturday night, to protect their employees. The trains couldn't run, as the tracks go by and on the levees. The flights were canceled. There was no way that all the tourists and people without cars could get out. Just no way.
As far as the rescue goes, I don't know exactly when the governor asked for federal troops; that request was necessary under the Posse Comitatus Act. The Louisiana National Guard, 3/4ths of which, including their Engineers (though not the Combat Engineers, whose duties are different) were in the state and other states quickly offered their troops. Yet the delay and organization seemed slow.
It seems that everyone was taken by surprise with how the storm seemed to be averted at the last second, yet the levee then broke later. More damningly, there seems to have been no real plan for rescuing people who couldn't get out. The chain of command still doesn't seem clear.
REW
Another perspective:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBNMA88.html
Newsview: Politicians Failed Storm Victims
Sep 1, 6:06 PM (ET)
By RON FOURNIER
WASHINGTON (AP) - At every turn, political leaders failed Katrina's victims. They didn't strengthen the levees. They ceded the streets to marauding looters. They left dead bodies to rot or bloat. Thousands suffered or died for lack of water, food and hope. Who's at fault?
There's plenty of blame to go around - the White House, Congress, federal agencies, local governments, police and even residents of the Gulf Coast who refused orders to evacuate. But all the finger-pointing misses the point: Politicians and the people they lead too often ignore danger signs until a crisis hits.
It wasn't a secret that levees built to keep New Orleans from flooding could not withstand a major hurricane, but government leaders never found the money to fully shore up the network of earthen, steel and concrete barriers.
Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects.
Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.
Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.
How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics.
Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway.
Once the hurricane hit, relief trickled into the Gulf Coast. Even Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown, whose agency is in charge of disaster response, pronounced the initial results unacceptable.
The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency.
Looting soon broke out as local police stood by. Some police didn't want to stop people from getting badly needed food and water. Others seemed to be overwhelmed. Thousands of National Guard troops were ordered to the Gulf Coast, but their ranks have been drastically thinned by the war in Iraq.
On top of all this, Katrina is one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit the United States. The best leaders running the most efficient agencies would have been sharply challenged.
"Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN shortly after joining former President Bush on a fundraising campaign for hurricane relief. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this."
That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. The politicians are doing what they do in time of crisis - shifting the blame.
"The truth will speak for itself," Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., said of potential lapses by government. Later, her office blamed the White House for budget cuts.
If it's not the Republicans' fault, perhaps some in Washington would like to blame New Orleans itself. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., questioned whether a city that lies below sea level should be rebuilt. "That doesn't make sense to me," he said.
But for anybody living - or dying - in the devastated region, there are far too many villains to name.
"We're out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center.
Robin Lovin, ethics professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said it's too convenient to blame one branch of government when they are all, at some level, failing people. From Watergate to Clinton's impeachment, governmental institutions have disappointed the public.
"Bush, Congress, the mayor - each of them are symptoms of a bigger problem, that we don't have accountability for disasters or challenges of this scale," Lovin said. "That's all the public wants in trying times - accountability."
Thus, Americans are doing what people do when government lets them down - they're turning to each other. Donations are pouring into charities. Internet sites are being used to find relatives. Residents of far-off states are opening their homes to victims.
The community spirit is reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. So is the second-guessing. It will happen again after the next crisis. You've heard the warnings: a cataclysmic California earthquake, another terrorist strike, a flu pandemic, a nuclear plant meltdown, a tsunami, the failure to address mounting U.S. debt - and on and on.
Will the public and its leaders be better prepared next time?
---
EDITOR'S NOTE - Ron Fournier has covered politics for The Associated Press since 1993.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050901/D8CBNMA88.html
Newsview: Politicians Failed Storm Victims
Sep 1, 6:06 PM (ET)
By RON FOURNIER
WASHINGTON (AP) - At every turn, political leaders failed Katrina's victims. They didn't strengthen the levees. They ceded the streets to marauding looters. They left dead bodies to rot or bloat. Thousands suffered or died for lack of water, food and hope. Who's at fault?
There's plenty of blame to go around - the White House, Congress, federal agencies, local governments, police and even residents of the Gulf Coast who refused orders to evacuate. But all the finger-pointing misses the point: Politicians and the people they lead too often ignore danger signs until a crisis hits.
It wasn't a secret that levees built to keep New Orleans from flooding could not withstand a major hurricane, but government leaders never found the money to fully shore up the network of earthen, steel and concrete barriers.
Both the Bush and Clinton administrations proposed budgets that low-balled the needs. Local politicians grabbed whatever money they could and declared victory. And the public didn't exactly demand tax increases to pay for flood-control and hurricane-protection projects.
Just last year, the Army Corps of Engineers sought $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans. The White House slashed the request to about $40 million. Congress finally approved $42.2 million, less than half of the agency's request.
Yet the lawmakers and Bush agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-laden highway bill that included more than 6,000 pet projects for lawmakers. Congress spent money on dust control for Arkansas roads, a warehouse on the Erie Canal and a $231 million bridge to a small, uninhabited Alaskan island.
How could Washington spend $231 million on a bridge to nowhere - and not find $42 million for hurricane and flood projects in New Orleans? It's a matter of power and politics.
Alaska is represented by Republican Rep. Don Young, chairman of the House Transportation Committee, and Republican Sen. Ted Stevens, a senior member of the all-important Senate Appropriations Committee. Louisiana's delegation holds far less sway.
Once the hurricane hit, relief trickled into the Gulf Coast. Even Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown, whose agency is in charge of disaster response, pronounced the initial results unacceptable.
The hurricane was the first major test of FEMA since it became part of the Homeland Security Department, a massive new bureaucracy that many feared would make the well-respected FEMA another sluggish federal agency.
Looting soon broke out as local police stood by. Some police didn't want to stop people from getting badly needed food and water. Others seemed to be overwhelmed. Thousands of National Guard troops were ordered to the Gulf Coast, but their ranks have been drastically thinned by the war in Iraq.
On top of all this, Katrina is one of the worst natural disasters ever to hit the United States. The best leaders running the most efficient agencies would have been sharply challenged.
"Look at all they've had to deal with," former President Clinton told CNN shortly after joining former President Bush on a fundraising campaign for hurricane relief. "I'm telling you, nobody every thought it would happen like this."
That's not true. Experts had predicted for years that a major hurricane would eventually hit New Orleans, swamping the levees and filling the bowl-shaped city with polluted water. The politicians are doing what they do in time of crisis - shifting the blame.
"The truth will speak for itself," Sen. Mary Landrieu, D-La., said of potential lapses by government. Later, her office blamed the White House for budget cuts.
If it's not the Republicans' fault, perhaps some in Washington would like to blame New Orleans itself. House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., questioned whether a city that lies below sea level should be rebuilt. "That doesn't make sense to me," he said.
But for anybody living - or dying - in the devastated region, there are far too many villains to name.
"We're out here like pure animals. We don't have help," the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center.
Robin Lovin, ethics professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, said it's too convenient to blame one branch of government when they are all, at some level, failing people. From Watergate to Clinton's impeachment, governmental institutions have disappointed the public.
"Bush, Congress, the mayor - each of them are symptoms of a bigger problem, that we don't have accountability for disasters or challenges of this scale," Lovin said. "That's all the public wants in trying times - accountability."
Thus, Americans are doing what people do when government lets them down - they're turning to each other. Donations are pouring into charities. Internet sites are being used to find relatives. Residents of far-off states are opening their homes to victims.
The community spirit is reminiscent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks. So is the second-guessing. It will happen again after the next crisis. You've heard the warnings: a cataclysmic California earthquake, another terrorist strike, a flu pandemic, a nuclear plant meltdown, a tsunami, the failure to address mounting U.S. debt - and on and on.
Will the public and its leaders be better prepared next time?
---
EDITOR'S NOTE - Ron Fournier has covered politics for The Associated Press since 1993.
T
tozz
Guest
"Let them eat cake?" No, no. NO!
It's fiddling while Rome burns. Or perhaps "I'm jes' a singin' cowboy."
It's fiddling while Rome burns. Or perhaps "I'm jes' a singin' cowboy."
brewer12345 said:
Mr._johngalt
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Charles said:
Nope.
JG
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ex-Jarhead said:
Roger that!
T
TromboneAl
Guest
I've been hesitating to post this opinion, but just thought I'd bring it up.
The problem here is also partly a problem of overpopulation. When you've got 484,000 people packed into a below-sea-level city, you've got to expect that when a problem hits, the system collapses. A lot of urban crowding and suburban sprawl can just barely work when everything is running OK (that is, there are terrible traffic jams but people can get where they're going), but throw a monkey wrench in (storm, earthquake, evacuation), and you have a mess.
Overpopulation also caused much of the wetlands hurricane buffer to be lost.
OK, I'm off my soap box now.
The problem here is also partly a problem of overpopulation. When you've got 484,000 people packed into a below-sea-level city, you've got to expect that when a problem hits, the system collapses. A lot of urban crowding and suburban sprawl can just barely work when everything is running OK (that is, there are terrible traffic jams but people can get where they're going), but throw a monkey wrench in (storm, earthquake, evacuation), and you have a mess.
Overpopulation also caused much of the wetlands hurricane buffer to be lost.
OK, I'm off my soap box now.
JPatrick
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I remember as a kid (not that long ago
![:-\](https://www.early-retirement.org/sk/forums/images/smilies/undecided.gif "Undecided :-\")
), one of the US geography trivia questions was along the lines of, "which US city is below sea level?" Others were which states have a panhandle, yada, yada. So far as I know these questions are still pretty universal.So if every kid knows the problem, doesn't it seem like an adult somewhere would have found a solution?
greg
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TromboneAl said:
One of the biggest problems I see with the overpopulation issue, especially in this country, is that everything near large population centers becomes very brittle. One major road lost and there's a huge bottle neck and then frustration and craziness in the 'bottlenecked' people.
Another factor is money, NOLA knew that they had a poor catastrophy response system and infrastructure, especially regarding their levies. They were short sighted. It's a poor area of the country, priorities such as street repair, etc. were overemphazised, compared to the major structural problems, Also, immediate food and water is more important than a house when you have neither.
The 'wise' government, those who should be able to see further into the future, should have responded properly to this infrastructure need because people in their daily lives in NO can't or won't. Our 'wise' government decided to spend money on an Alaskan bridge to nowhere.
We need a good government that understands priorities and acts on them accordingly--a higher power so to speak. We don't have that now and we didn't have much of one under Clinton either or Bush Sr., etc. I see a movement toward something not good here. And I am NOT saying Democrats are right.
But we can't move toward starving the gov't either and hoping free enterprise will pick up the peices. Free enterprise has a profit motive; they don't do things out of benevolence toward the people. We need a much better gov't than we have now or had under Clinton. Otherwise, the brittleness and lack of good priorities and proper choices will doom us to a sort of perpetual chaos--in our lifetimes. This is fertile ground for oligarchs and tyrants who profess simple solutions to our problems. We need to grow up and operate correctly and in a balanced fashion in our complex world of growing populations. The alternative is horrifying.
--Greg
BigMoneyJim
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On major news stories I like to check foreign media to see if there are other points of views. I think I agree with everything this guy says:
New Orleans crisis shames Americans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm
In this case I don't see a different point of view than what I've seen in aggregate from American news sources, this guy sums it up pretty well for the beeb.
New Orleans crisis shames Americans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm
In this case I don't see a different point of view than what I've seen in aggregate from American news sources, this guy sums it up pretty well for the beeb.
JPatrick
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Marshac said:JPatrick already offered to do so.
Well I'll tell you this sports fans- - -If I were the mayor of NOLA, the outcome may have been the same as it is today, but I would have been able to show the world a pretty complete laundry list of items I would have tried to do in the prevention mode years ago and an equally long list of measures I would have taken when I knew Katrina was approaching. Not only that, I would have shown you some muddy boots cause I damn sure would not have run to Baton Rouge and started whining for W. Again, the outcome may have been exactly the same, but the getting there would sure look different.
I didn't offer to run for office. I'd rather just take over. Considering the lame job you voters have done lately (except for Marshac) you should welcome that.
REWahoo
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give
JPatrick said:I didn't offer to run for office. I'd rather just take over. Considering the lame job you voters have done lately (except for Marshac) you should welcome that.
I've posted this before, but I don't see why anyone in their right mind would run for public office. You need not only the skin of a rhinoceros and the ego of JG, but it would be best if you had no spouse or children for the press and public to abuse. No matter how much wealth, influence or power, it simply wouldn't be worth it.
JPatrick, you can assume the post of emperor any time you want it. But why on earth would you?
REW
REWahoo
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give
Today's paper contained extensive coverage of the losses from Katrina and the evacuees' search for food and shelter. It also had coverage of the annual Parade of Homes. Sent the following to the editor. I know it means nothing in real terms, but it made me feel better:
The heart-wrenching photos and stories of the tragedy on
the Gulf Coast created quite a contrast to your Saturday article
"Big Dreams: Luxury, and lots of it found at Parade of Homes".
Thousands of families are not only without a home, but have
nothing but the clothes on their backs. Meanwhile while we are
building "...luxurious homes that range from 4,200 square feet
to almost 9,000 square feet. Prices swing from $1.2 million to
$2.6 million."
I couldn't help noting the irony...and feeling a sense of guilt
and shame.
REW
The heart-wrenching photos and stories of the tragedy on
the Gulf Coast created quite a contrast to your Saturday article
"Big Dreams: Luxury, and lots of it found at Parade of Homes".
Thousands of families are not only without a home, but have
nothing but the clothes on their backs. Meanwhile while we are
building "...luxurious homes that range from 4,200 square feet
to almost 9,000 square feet. Prices swing from $1.2 million to
$2.6 million."
I couldn't help noting the irony...and feeling a sense of guilt
and shame.
REW
Mr._johngalt
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JPatrick said:
Mr._johngalt
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REWahoo! said:I've posted this before, but I don't see why anyone in their right mind would run for public office. You need not only the skin of a rhinoceros and the ego of JG, but it would be best if you had no spouse or children for the press and public to abuse. No matter how much wealth, influence or power, it simply wouldn't be worth it.
JPatrick, you can assume the post of emperor any time you want it. But why on earth would you?
REW
I think I could handle being absolute ruler, or maybe not................
wouldn't want it to be too much work
. That aside, I agree that Ido not really understand why people run for elected office. To me it
looks like nothing but grief. I guess someone has to do it, but I
would never have, even if I was younger and had the energy.
I really believe that your ego would have to be huge (either that
or you are just stupid). Hey.....................an epiphany.............
maybe a huge ego plus stupidity is an effective politician's
"Stew". Yep, I think I am onto something here............
JG
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