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Re: Iran
Old 02-02-2006, 09:39 PM   #21
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Re: Iran

It mystifies me how the folks that post on this board can have so little faith in the military. As a former Air Force pilot, and father of a Marine pilot, I can assure you we are only 'over committed' in the eyes of the press! I have first hand knowledge as to the abilities of the average Iranian fighter pilot. I will pit our worst F-15 pilot against anyone they have. Are your memories so short that you don't remember the gloom and doom the press put forth if we were to venture into Iraq.... the third or forth largest military in the World!
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Re: Iran
Old 02-02-2006, 10:06 PM   #22
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Re: Iran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23
It mystifies me how the folks that post on this board can have so little faith in the military. As a former Air Force pilot, and father of a Marine pilot, I can assure you we are only 'over committed' in the eyes of the press! I have first hand knowledge as to the abilities of the average Iranian fighter pilot. I will pit our worst F-15 pilot against anyone they have. Are your memories so short that you don't remember the gloom and doom the press put forth if we were to venture into Iraq.... the third or forth largest military in the World!
I have great faith in the military and the technology of our forces. I happen to know a lot about our military technology and how superior it is to everything else. We also have a more highly trained and disciplined military than anyone else (since Nords retired).

But the military can only do what can be accomplished by weapons and armies. That's a long way from peace and stability. You ask if we've forgotten the gloom and doom the press put forth if we were to venture into Iraq. Well. . . no. Have you forgotten that we are still in that war? that over 2000 troops have died? over 10,000 wounded? and that there is no end in sight? Maybe the press was more right about Iraq than this administration.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-02-2006, 10:15 PM   #23
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Re: Iran

Yup, Saddam could put on a fine military parade and so can Iran, so unless we take them on in a "battle of the Bands" or something, I don't think their military is especially impressive.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-02-2006, 10:22 PM   #24
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Re: Iran

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Originally Posted by Rustic23
the third or forth largest military in the World!
That had no air force, no navy, and that the world had beaten down to nearly nothing for about ten years?

I can assure you the iranian military bears little resemblance to the iraqi one. They arent going to throw out "bahgdad bob" and then fold a week later.

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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 07:35 AM   #25
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Re: Iran

Hmmm

The knot head Marine Infantry Officer leaves this this month for his third 'vacation' in Iraq. All the Navy ones are now stateside and the landings still equal the take-offs.

Sometimes I ponder the price of 'victory' - on relatives AND my ER portfolio. Doesn't last long and I sleep well at night.

The tide of history - is er ah well -the tide of history.

Second cup of coffee post.

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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 07:47 AM   #26
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Re: Iran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustic23
It mystifies me how the folks that post on this board can have so little faith in the military. As a former Air Force pilot, and father of a Marine pilot, I can assure you we are only 'over committed' in the eyes of the press! I have first hand knowledge as to the abilities of the average Iranian fighter pilot. I will pit our worst F-15 pilot against anyone they have. Are your memories so short that you don't remember the gloom and doom the press put forth if we were to venture into Iraq.... the third or forth largest military in the World!
I've no doubt that we have air superiority over Iran, Iraq, etc. That's not the problem. The stretch is coming at the point of the boots on the ground. Three years after the invasion, we still can't pacify areas of Iraq that we have leveled/swept through multiple times. Bobing them again won't help.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 08:17 AM   #27
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Re: Iran

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Bobing them again won't help.
So we shouldn't send in the "Bobs"? (an Office Space reference for those of you who don't get it).

And while we're on the subject -- a little bit of humor to lighten the mood...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Gibbons: You see Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.
Bob Porter: Don't... don't care?
Peter Gibbons: It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? And here's another thing, I have eight different bosses right now.
Bob Porter: Eight?
Peter Gibbons: Eight, Bob. So that means when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Slydell: You see, what we're trying to do is get a feeling for how people spend their time at work so if you would, would you walk us through a typical day, for you?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah.
Bob Slydell: Great.
Peter Gibbons: Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late, ah, I use the side door - that way Lumbergh can't see me, heh - after that I sorta space out for an hour.
Bob Porter: Da-uh? Space out?
Peter Gibbons: Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Slydell: I'd like to move us right to Peter Gibbons. We had a chance to meet this young man, and boy that's just a straight shooter with upper management written all over him.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 08:17 AM   #28
 
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Re: Iran

America may have won the battle for Iraq, but they certainly are not winning the war for Iraq.

Britain rationalised its' Invasion of South Africa as necessary to free the poor native from the tyranny of the Boer, the real reason, Gold Mines.

The US attack on Iran would make old enemies forces allies, Israel should certainly be the means to the end of Iranian Nuclear capablity

Walls and Fences are being built along US Borders to control who gets in, 911 proved they are already in.

The US Military is definitlly the most powerfully armed in the world, but in Ground Combat, my money would be on the Goat herder with a musket hiding in the hills waiting for revenge on the Infidels who bombed his family.

The Middle East contains many bodies of British Soldiers who, like todays US Army, thought they could march in and destroy the rag tags, the British learned, and lost, and retreated.

Iran worries me, North Korea scares the hell out of me, that is the real enemy.

The cartoon in the Post about Rumsfield and the disabled soldier goes beyond tasteless.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 08:26 AM   #29
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Re: Iran

How can you claim to have in depth knowledge about the military and rest your argument on a statemt that ' that over 2000 troops have died? over 10,000 wounded? and that there is no end in sight? ' while that claim is true, only 2/3 have been combat deaths, and while to the families of those troops the loss is tragic, in a military since, these figures are far below what would be expected to take a country the size of Iran. Compare this to Vietnam, as the press did in the early stage of the war, 58,148 deaths! NO END IN SIGHT? Once more, if your only source of news is abc, cbs, nbc, and cnn, then you may believe this, however, facts don't bare this out. Free elections, in which 2/3 of Iraq's 15 milion registered voters voted.

I will admit that Bush does not do everything right. Want to talk about SS reform, health care, drug benifit, no child left behind.... OK, but the statements on Iraq and Afganistan are generally just not true. Well read them in the New York Times, so they have to be.... RIGHT!

I can assure you the iranian military bears little resemblance to the iraqi one.

To quote *Brigadier General Mcauliffe, 'Nuts!' as I said, Iran had the 4th largest military in the world, their Air Force was 40,000 strong with about 1,000 aircraft, *40 MiG-21s, 50 MiG-23s a dozen MiG-25s and 10 MiG-29s, plus 50 French-built Mirage F-1EQs. These are very good aircraft. Iran, As of 2000 it was estimated that only 40 of the 132 F-4Ds, 177 F-4Es and 16 RF-4E. Phantoms delivered before 1979 remained in service. At that time, approximately 45 of the 169 F-5E/Fs delivered are still flying, while perhaps 20 F-14A Tomcats of the 79 initially delivered were airworthy. Another 30 F-4s, 30 F-5s and 35 F-14s have been cannibalized for spare parts. One report suggested that the IRIAF can get no more than seven F-14s airborne at any one time. Iran claims to have fitted F-14s with I-Hawk missiles adapted to the air-to-air role. There are reports that Iran has augmented their force with fighters from China and Russia. Still, they get little training, and their life on the battle field would be short.

The Iraq military looked ausome on paper, as does the Iranian. In reality it hold the same threat.

Now if you want to talk about occupation, that is a different question. As in Iraq, we should be prepaired to take casualties after the main military battles are over. *

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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 08:52 AM   #30
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Re: Iran

Preventing Iran from getting nukes is the primary goal, IMHO. Why invade?
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 08:53 AM   #31
 
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Re: Iran

"If I should die, think only this of me

That there is some corner of a Foreign Land that is forever England"

The Soldier, Rupert Brooke

Same scene, differant players, old men sending young men to march behind a rag on a stick.

I remember seeing the Veterans of WW11 come home, limbless, mindless, pennyless, no person with a conscience could ever advocate armed confrontation.

I am a Veteran, just not a War Veteran.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 09:04 AM   #32
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Re: Iran

If I remember correctly, Harry Truman was told that we would lose a million fine young Americans if we invaded Japan.* He was presented an option of nuking them.* He made the decision based on saving American lives and shortening the war.* BTW:* The Japanese (at that time) were just as crazy as present-day crazies, what with their kamikazees.* A fine man, old Harry was.* Sure wish he was here today.* * If you're gonna be the world's only superpower, than act like it. Do not allow under any circumstances the Iranians to get a nuke.* Because, as Tom Friedman says, then the Saudis gotta get one, and other countries got to get one, and then the game has just changed.*Sadaam may not have had WMDs, but he sure wanted them. Wonder why?
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 09:43 AM   #33
 
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Re: Iran

To defend himself??

The fact that America delayed for almost 2 years it's entry into WW11 certainly gave the Japanese needed time to build up their war Machine.

Nuke 'em, ?

I am surprised at the Full Page Ads in the NY Times callimg for Bush's impeachment, that is something you would not find anywhere else.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 11:11 AM   #34
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Re: Iran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle43
If you're gonna be the world's only superpower, than act like it.
And when China becomes a hyperpower? Will you still encourage them to act like the global bully cop? I really don't understand how we can try and deny any sovereign nation nukes, or whatever else they want to develop. I understand why we don't want them to have them.... but to actually say "don't develop them, or else." I wouldn't put it past this administration to use tactical nukes on Iran's nuclear installations- the radiation could easily be explained by the radioactive material once contained in the facilities.

My Iran fears-

We go to war, or Israel conducts a unilateral preemptive-strike on Iran's nuclear assets (as they did in 1981 with Iraq). This would be like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire, and conflict would consume the region. Instability would cause oil production to precipitously drop, severely damaging the world economy, and almost certainly would push us into a global recession which would have repercussions of its own.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 11:23 AM   #35
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Re: Iran

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Originally Posted by Marshac
My Iran fears-

We go to war, or Israel conducts a unilateral preemptive-strike on Iran's nuclear assets (as they did in 1981 with Iraq). This would be like pouring gasoline on a smoldering fire, and conflict would consume the region. Instability would cause oil production to precipitously drop, severely damaging the world economy, and almost certainly would push us into a global recession which would have repercussions of its own.
You forgot something of presumably keen interest to you personally: the draft.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 11:36 AM   #36
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Re: Iran

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Originally Posted by Rustic23
How can you claim to have in depth knowledge about the military . . .
Thirty years of work doing strategic planning exercises with the DoD. Eleven years working directly on defense contracts for various military systems. Attendance at countless pentagon briefings on US mission effectiveness. Clearances and access that I still can't even talk about. . .

And you?
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 12:21 PM   #37
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Re: Iran

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
You forgot something of presumably keen interest to you personally: the draft.
I keep tellin' ya, Brewer, even the Marines will start recruiting high-school dropouts before the military will put up with Congress' fuss over a draft. Heck, they'll even swear in Bush's daughters.

Don't sweat it. The Navy Reserve has been turning thousands of officers over to the Army and they haven't mobilized even half of them yet.

Next time Congress introduces draft legislation, the JCS will publicly obtain the names/ages of the children of all congressional incumbents & staff. End of debate.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 12:35 PM   #38
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Re: Iran

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I keep tellin' ya, Brewer, even the Marines will start recruiting high-school dropouts before the military will put up with Congress' fuss over a draft.* Heck, they'll even swear in Bush's daughters.

Don't sweat it.* The Navy Reserve has been turning thousands of officers over to the Army and they haven't mobilized even half of them yet.

Next time Congress introduces draft legislation, the JCS will publicly obtain the names/ages of the children of all congressional incumbents & staff.* End of debate.
Don't be so sure. I never thought I would ever see some of the ongoing shenanigans we see today justified by "national security". Its not that much of a leap to justify the draft.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 09:57 PM   #39
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Re: Iran

A wierd place to delurk on this board but holy crap. For what reason do you think Iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? (Hint: it starts with an R and ends in egime change)

It is the stated policy of the United States to overthrow the government of Iran. If they weren't trying to develop the only way to keep us off their ass I'd be amazed. We have 130000 odd troops in Iraq, another 30000 in Afghanistan, we own Musharraf in Pakistan, bases in Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan, maybe soon Turkmenistan, across the water in Saudi Arabia, Qatar (home of our central command), Kuwait etc. And half of our fleet off their southern coast. I'd be real scared and looking for the only way to survive if I were them.

Then you throw in the fact that we installed a hideous dictator that they overthrew, then supported Iraq and Saddam Hussein in a war that killed 300000 of their citizens, blew up a civilian airliner "accidentally" and so on. They have every reason to hate us and fear us.

What have they done to us? They did take hostages at our embassy. That's not a nice thing to do. Too bad we rewarded them by selling them weapons, but Reagan needed to get elected.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Iranian government is a disgrace. But they're no threat to us.
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Re: Iran
Old 02-03-2006, 10:43 PM   #40
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Re: Iran

I have a solution for the whole mess--bomb Israel.* Why not do like the Italians in WWII and switch sides?* Think about it, no more Middle-East conflict, the US could immediately come home from Iraq, and we would be heros to the rest of the arab countries.

The only drawback I see is that we would be killing our friends and allies.* Well, I don't suppose any plan is perfect.** :P
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