Making marriage last

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

We haven't found it necessary to consciously "work" on our marriage. Are we in a minority here?

We may be a minority, but the thread seemed to veer toward lots of worldly recommendations about self-help books, seminars, rules to follow, charismatic experts and the like .

I'm with you. The kind of "w*rk" required for a lasting marriage is more about compromising, commiserating, being fair, respect and all the other cliches. At this stage, I am not even aware of doing any of that stuff -- it is just part of our molecules after 35 years.

And at this point there are so many good years of good feelings towards each other - like a huge bank account. Hard to deplete that kind of investment and trust.

GREAT analogy!

 

[REWahoo]

audrey & doc,

Thanks for steering this thread a different direction. For a while there I was beginning to think our marriage was in deep trouble and might not make it past the first 38 years.

(I cannot imagine the reaction I would get from DW if I suggested a Dobson book or better yet, a seminar.)

 

[ladelfina]

audrey, Rich, and REWahoo, you are NOT alone.

I can't imagine where a marriage would have to be w*rk.

Yes, it takes the same minimal level of respect and mutual cultivation as any other relationship, but if you feel like this is not happening naturally with your partner, I'm not sure how w*rking on it will change things dramatically. There's no magic bullet, and I wonder if all the seminars and therapy might not just stir up just as many 'issues' as they resolve. [I just can't imagine telling DH "you're not responsive to my needs..."!]

I am not super-religious, but when I married my Catholic husband, I made a promise that was for forever. Not just until something better came along. When you both understand this and take marriage seriously, then the rest is cake.

I was fortunate to get married later in life (we just celebrated our 6th anniversary). I think "kids today" who get married often do it for the wrong reasons and overlook the warning signs. Our niece, now 32, got married a couple years back. She's a beautiful girl, and he was a handsome guy; they met at some beach resort. Soon, her mother was planning the wedding dress, etc. while Niece was busily compiling her massive and costly gift registry. When it came time to have the pre-wedding meetings with the priest, hubby-to-be was a continual no-show, so Niece went alone.

Boooo-Weeep! Booo-Weeeep! Danger! Danger! Will Robinson!

Divorced almost inside of a year. He was already seeing another woman.   
And damn, we are out 400 bucks' worth of crystal glasses!

---
I had a big e-mail xchange with my sister (the Republican) about the religiousity factor and marriage/divorce.

Statistics tell an interesting story, which I read as.. the more "Bible-thumpy" you are on the Protestant Christian scale, the more likely you are to get divorced!:

21% of atheists and agnostics have divorced
21% of Catholics and Lutherans have divorced
24% of Mormons
25% of the population as a whole
25% "mainline" Protestant
27% of "born-again" Christians have divorced (I think this group is self-described and could overlap into the others)
29% of Baptists have divorced
34% of "Evangelicals" have divorced

And these figures are from a Born-Again group...
http://www.thegoodsteward.com/article.php3?articleID=115

In discussing these figures, rationales are offered up, such as lower income and the tendency to get married earlier, but I haven't seen the figures broken down by age, income, education.. which would be interesting. Of course, the percentage could be misleading since fewer marriages => fewer divorces.

Using a more valuable yardstick, we see that places in the "Bible Belt" have a much higher divorce RATE than the overall population. It runs (roughly) something like 6-7/1000 (divorces/marriages yearly) for places like TX, OK and 2-3/1000 for CT and MA, compared to 4-5/1000 for the whole US.

Even if nothing is really proven about the holy rollers' having a worse record when it comes to marriage and divorce, the best-case scenario we could charitably infer is that they are NO DIFFERENT FROM ANYONE ELSE.. and that all the "Promise Keeping" and "Focus on the Family" over the last 20 years hasn't made any impact whatsoever.  But that's still the best case, IMO. I mean, you are talking a rate in Oklahoma that is TRIPLE that of Massachusetts.

Marriage itself is less popular in Texas than in Massachusetts. In Texas, the percent of people unmarried is 32.4 percent; in Massachusetts, it's 26.8 percent. So even with a higher marriage rate, Massachusetts manages a divorce rate almost half of its "conservative" rival.

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/main_article.php?artnum=20041128

 

[Dreamer]

This Methodist was married at 19 years old (which was way too young) and we were very poor, so the financial stress was huge. I was also very immature. Marriage was very hard work back in the day. We also believe that marriage is forever, so we are going on 34 years in Oct. Children can definitely add to the stress of a marriage, but they are also a blessing and add to a marriage. My DH and I have basically grown up together, shared our life together and are best friends. We know each other better than anyone else knows us and have our history together. Our children, 26 and 17, are almost grown and we no longer have the financial stress. My son is not married and I hope that my DD waits to get married also. I consider myself very fortunate not to be divorced. I wonder if we had had the money to get a divorce early in our marriage, if we would still be married. I would hope so, but we had a very stormy time for a few years. Thank goodness we were poor!

 

[brewer12345]

(I cannot imagine the reaction I would get from DW if I suggested a Dobson book or better yet, a seminar.)

I can imagine the reaction of my DW, at least once I explained who and what that creature spews: she'd tell me to go by myself! After all, she knows I will often listen to Fundamentalist nutballs on the radio for the pleasure of laughing at them. Its also good to listen to them in the car to stay awake ("irritainment").

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Remember "marriage encounter" from the 70s? It was essentially group therapy for couples who had "good" marriages and just wanted to "take it to the next level."

Every couple we knew who partook (maybe 3 or 4) later divorced. The seeds were sown. No judgment intended - sometimes two good people just shouldn't stay together, but I think the prognosis seems to vary indirectly with the amount of w*rk needed to keep it alive. It does take some, to be sure, but you just don't notice it in the good ones.

BTW, I am not alluding to any of the posts or posters in this thread -- these were offered in a totally different context and in an informal and helpful spirit. I'm just referring to folks I have known over the years.

 

[unclemick]

Hmmm

I look at marriage, golf and voting Republican as maybe ok for some people - but just not my cup of tea.

heh heh heh

 

[PsyopRanger]

I would also add your age as a factor; it seems older couples stay together longer than us young ones.  Current stats are up to 55-65% of marriages end in divorce.  I wonder if it is a generational thing? 

It seems my generation wants everything yesterday and has little patience to wait. 
Many of my friends who have divorced say that they had this expectation of what a marriage should be and when it did not meet that expectation, they blamed their spouse and decided they married the wrong person.

I also wonder how many people stay together but are not truly happy and do not divorce because of vlaues they grew up with?

I also agree on someone’s point on sacrifice, one thing marriage has taught me is to not be so selfish. 

As far as Dobson, I guess I only read his books; I don’t look into his personal crusades or political background?

As far a debating relgion, it is a futile effort.

 

[ladelfina]

As far as Dobson, I guess I only read his books; I don’t look into his personal crusades or political background?  As far a debating relgion, it is a futile effort.

Fair enough, PsyOp.. I didn't mean to impugn anyone on the board, and, until lately, I never worried much about politics and religion. It's only that Dobson (among others) have pushed their fairly extreme religious views into the supposed political 'mainstream'. The current admin. hardly makes a move without hearing from Dobson personally. So I just thought it was fair game to point out some of the hypocrisy...

I don't mean to attack anyone's religious beliefs in a personal context. I will take issue with them in a political context (where they themselves have placed them, not I). An American Taliban we don't need.

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's..", etc.

You are right that many people have crazy expectations about marriage. Maybe they are looking for somone else to "complete" them and help resolve their 'issues'? Then when they discover that this person has their own 'issues', the two things together overload their circuits.

One of Martha's original five main points was financial problems.. of the two couples I know in choppy waters, finances are a biggie. Not so much the lack of money as 180°-opposite views of how to handle it responsibly.

Poor communication
Financial problems
A lack of commitment to the marriage
A dramatic change in priorities
Infidelity

Of the remaining ones, I would say ALL of them boil down to "a lack of commitment to the marriage." I would even argue that allowing financial problems to break up your home is also "a lack of commitment to the marriage." There! how's that for intolerance!?!? 

 

[Sarah in SC]

We haven't found it necessary to consciously "work" on our marriage.  Are we in a minority here?  15 very happy years.....

We chose not to have any children.  Does that put stress on a marriage or help it?

We both had the LBYM point of view.  We never endured financial struggles although the early years were a bit lean (little savings).  Financial stress must be terribly hard on a marriage.

We think our biggest strength is that we have a great deal in common - interests and life philosophy.  We tremendously enjoy doing things together.  FIRE has been awesome because we've been able to do so much together.  We're a great team.

Of course we have the deepest respect for each other.  I'm sure that must be the foundation.  Without a deep respect and trust for your partner - no marriage can last very long.

And at this point there are so many good years of good feelings towards each other - like a huge bank account.  Hard to deplete that kind of investment and trust.

Audrey

Amen, sister. 
Our situation exactly (married 13 yrs). 
Thanks for giving us the words and hope for our own FIRE!
Sarah

 

[haha]

I think the Psy-Op is  pretty tough guy, in the best sense. The current is running heavy against him in this thread, and he remains polite.

Good going, Psy-Op.

Ha

 

[brewer12345]

Agreed. Not trying to beat on you, POR. Good on ya with the thick skin.

 

[laurence]

Here here, as a Christian (Catholic like my homie Brewer) with a big red shiny button easily pushed by others on this board, I feel for you man, and will try to use your example.

I think age of marriage is huge, DW and I probably got married a little too soon (25 and 23 - I'm a cradle robber) and the first year or so was a little rocky. The fact that divorce was not an option in our minds and the fact we really did like and respect each other got us through and we enjoyed it ever since.

Several people on the board have talked about not having to work on their relationship, that's great! My personal experience is we didn't have to work past that first year until Tori was born. We were on cruise control up until then. But while it's been hard at times (Tori's has gone through a lot) I think it brought us closer together and made our bond stronger. You can have a good time with anyone, it's how you handle the rough times together that reveal the truth of a relationship. Just MHO.

 

[MikeD]

We've been married 30 years (last Sunday). My wife is very tolerant. We have respect for each other. Few of our relatives got divorced until our generation. We saw being married as permanent. We married young and grew up together.

I don't think you really know a person until you suffer with them. We have had very hard times, like financial and especially my medical probs.

Mike D.

 

[haha]

If anyone had asked me up until 10 or 15 years ago, I would have said, "Marriage, a piece of cake!"

I wouldn’t say that now, although I still would like to be able to say it. But to me it seems obvious that people and circumstances and the people's reactions to the circumstances change during what is for many a pretty long period of time. Children come and go, health problems come and sometimes go, interests and passions change.

A person can say, I don't care; I made my decision and it is forever. But since marriage is one of those blasted two-to tango affairs, you are not the only one in charge of your fate. And no matter how late in life you get married, or how clever you are as a judge of character, there will be bends in the road, from your perspective and from your spouse's.

And let's not forget, many of us  look upon this as our one and only lifetime. It can seem silly to let decisions we made in our mid twenties bind us 30 years later. Not necessarily be silly, all things considered, but IMO at least, there is room for reasonable doubt here.

Ha

 

[wabmester]

As far a debating relgion, it is a futile effort.

Hardly. It can be very entertaining.

Enjoy.

 

[unclemick]

Sooo

I should try golf?? - after a forty year lapse?? - just didn't work out the first time.

heh heh heh

 

[TomSimpsonAZ]

www.marriagebuilders.com


Great site, great forums, etc.

 

[Cut-Throat]

Dobson is an idiot!

 

[haha]

Dobson is an idiot!

A carefully crafted response. 

Ha

 

[shiny]

Sooo

I should try golf?? - after a forty year lapse?? - just didn't work out the first time.

First you must read a book/take a seminar on it.

 

[laurence]

Just keeping it pithy, right C-T?

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Since I pounded on Leonardo from Brazil on marriage, maybe I ought to wade in here. (No, No, don't thank me! Just pay at the door.)

DW and I are like gerbils: we have been married over 30 years now. We married older than most and had kids later than most, after that (I thought I would be the oldest guy in La Maz <dang! I can't spell it> --but I wasn't.) We had great role models in both her parents and mine (and object lessons in her uncles and one brother). We are best friends, take care of each other and watch out for each other. (I hardly ever think anymore about the girl I was seeing in college who...never mind. )

We were both raised in the same Faith (registered trade mark). (Sheer accident--we didn't know it at the time (we grew up in Oregon, dontcha know?)). Didn't push it on the kids, but they both turned out as solid as a rock anyway. It is the way you live, not what you say, that they learn. We don't go to church except to bury kin (too frequent these days). We have blood relatives in a wide variety of organized (or not) religions. (Oregon, remember?) I would trust any one of them, even the craziest booger, with my life, and vis versa. Good bunch on both sides.

DW and I can read each other's mind for a long time now. We are welded together. As I must work in far places these days, we have HUGE phone bills, but it works. (Wish mind-reading worked like telepathy. Could save a lot of money.) We think of the other before we think of ourselves. (I am not sure that sentence makes sense, but maybe you get the drift.)

As for the Marriage Encounter stuff.... Years ago I was unhappy at work and DW told me I was bringing my anger home with me and that had to stop, so she found an Anger Mangement Course at the local community college, where the courts sent hostile couples, road rage miscreants, etc, besides regular folks like me. It changed my life. Later on, a friend told me about going to a Marriage Encounter one week-end through his church. It was the very same curriculum!! e.g., writing down what is really important to you, learning how to fight fair, how to take yourself out of an inflammatory situation, role-playing, depression is anger turned inwards, and so forth. Strongly recommended!!! (Did you note?: Available with and without bible-thumping.)

Mutual respect and lots of it.

Ol' Ed,
Feeding the mosquitos <still can't spell> in Alberta

Unwashed,
Unrepentant,
Unforgiven and
Unimpressed.

 

[PsyopRanger]

It is the way you live, not what you say, that they learn. 

Great point, I guess my draw to faith is that all my non-faith friends and co-workers spend there time drinking, partying, living like teenagers, cheating on their spouses, etc.

I'll admit, when I was first a father I continued some of this shenanigans, but I finally felt the need to be a role model and get out of these habits.  I still have friends who live this lifestyle now in their 30's, maybe it is the age in which I married and my associations? 

In Special Operations, we blow up things and jump out of planes for a living, after work, you want to take social time to the next level as well? 

 

[FlowGirl]

We haven't found it necessary to consciously "work" on our marriage.  Are we in a minority here?  15 very happy years.....

We haven't had to consiously work at it either - coming up on 10 years and lived together 2 years before that.  Sounds cheesy, but our marriage started out great and has gotten better every year.  Sometimes we even astound ourselves at how well we get along - we prefer to hang out with each more than anyone else we know.  I don't know what the key to sucess is (and still have a long way to go before ours is proven truly successful) but we worked out the big issues before tying the knot, and the little ones, well... just aren't worth turning into big ones.

People keep telling me marriage is a lot of work, but honestly if my marriage felt like a job, I don't think I'd still be here.  A syllabus of scheduled readings as laid out by Psy-Ops sounds like my worst nightmare.    We're both heathen athiests (as raised by our parents) and seem to be doing ok without help from Dobson.  But, whatever works... attending a seminar once in a while is certainly better than divorce.