Making marriage last

[PsyopRanger]

We haven't had to consiously work at it either - coming up on 10 years and lived together 2 years before that.  Sounds cheesy, but our marriage started out great and has gotten better every year.  Sometimes we even astound ourselves at how well we get along - we prefer to hang out with each more than anyone else we know.  I don't know what the key to sucess is (and still have a long way to go before ours is proven truly successful) but we worked out the big issues before tying the knot, and the little ones, well... just aren't worth turning into big ones.

People keep telling me marriage is a lot of work, but honestly if my marriage felt like a job, I don't think I'd still be here.  A syllabus of scheduled readings as laid out by Psy-Ops sounds like my worst nightmare.    We're both heathen athiests (as raised by our parents) and seem to be doing ok without help from Dobson.  But, whatever works... attending a seminar once in a while is certainly better than divorce.

Do you have kids? 

My marriage was smooth sailing and spending time doing whatever "we" felt like.
After children, it is doing what the "family" feels like.

Before kids....endless hours alone together.
After Kids....Maybe 30 minutes per day when the kids are asleep. 

I also ask those that have a blissful marriage, how do you know if your marriage is solid if it has never been tested with problems? 

As someone else posted, a successful marriage is one that goes through good times and bad times together.

I would be interested in your comments here:
http://early-retirement.org/forums/index.php?topic=8695.0

 

[audreyh1]

I also ask those that have a blissful marriage, how do you know if your marriage is solid if it has never been tested with problems? 

Hmmmm.

Sounds like maybe there is some kind of external stress test or measuring stick that we need to apply to our marriage "to make sure it's solid".  Otherwise we should be worried about what'll happen when we are truly "tested".

Hmmmm.

I think not.  We're together.  We're happy.  Life is good.  Whatever happens, happens.  Luck probably has plenty to do with that, so we are grateful for our good fortune (knock on wood).  No need to validate or test or measure things ahead of time.  Live the best we can today and one day at a time......

Maybe that seems like "blissful ignorance".  Somehow I don't think so.....

Audrey

 

[REWahoo]

...so we are grateful for our food fortune (knock on wood).

Hmmmm. Pre-breakfast post Audrey?

 

[PsyopRanger]

Hmmmm.

Sounds like maybe there is some kind of external stress test or measuring stick that we need to apply to our marriage "to make sure it's solid".  Otherwise we should be worried about what'll happen when we are truly "tested".

Hmmmm.

I think not.  We're together.  We're happy.  Life is good.  Whatever happens, happens.  Luck probably has plenty to do with that, so we are grateful for our food fortune (knock on wood).  No need to validate or test or measure things ahead of time.  Live the best we can today and one day at a time......

Maybe that seems like "blissful ignorance".  Somehow I don't think so.....

Audrey

My point is that when people say they do not need to work at a marriage, what level of marriage to they have?  What have they been through?

What is the measure of a good marriage?  
When there are no problems in the marriage, of course you don’t have to work at it.
When problems or stress arrive in the marriage, how does the couple deal with them together?  

Case in Point:

A friend of mine named Tim was married for 5 blissful years, never any problems, smooth sailing.  Then a baby arrives, along with financial and other children stress.  
Tim and his wife starting arguing, they both said “We never argued before?  I guess we married the wrong person.” and Tim got a divorce.

If you look at Tim’s first 5 years, in his words he had a great marriage, after some stress hit the marriage, it went downhill.  

 

[brewer12345]

Ranger, you will have to excuse me for being a suspicious bastard, but my "Fundie Radar" is beeping away. I kept expecting a sentence at the end of your post along the lines of "if TIM had oly accepted Jeezus as his personal savious (and pool boy), everything would have been just fine."

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

also ask those that have a blissful marriage, how do you know if your marriage is solid if it has never been tested with problems?  

Psyop, for many of us (maybe most of us over a certain age), life is gray or multicolored, not black and white. You can seek digital answers all you want, but life will answer in analog most of the time.

Just keep an open mind before jumping to judgment, and allow yourself the luxury of changing your own mind as your experiences warrant. I sense you are exploring, maybe even working through a few things, and that's good.

I've enjoyed reading your posts and hope the replies and even the gentle "push back" have been useful for you.

 

[astromeria]

all my non-faith friends and co-workers spend there time drinking, partying, living like teenagers, cheating on their spouses, etc.

In my experience, atheists are no more likely to do these things than religious folks.

 

[PsyopRanger]

Ranger, you will have to excuse me for being a suspicious bastard, but my "Fundie Radar" is beeping away.  I kept expecting a sentence at the end of your post along the lines of "if TIM had oly accepted Jeezus as his personal savious (and pool boy), everything would have been just fine."

Although I believe in God, I do not believe in prostelization.

My point is that Tim thought things were fine until life tested his marriage, this was the first real test in his marriage and the marriage failed the test.

 

[PsyopRanger]

In my experience, atheists are no more likely to do these things than religious folks.

That leads me to the question of morality in my other thread.

Also, my definition of a Christian is someone who truly tries to live by the morals and values of the faith, not someone who shows up to church and “acts” like they are Christian.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

Great point, I guess my draw to faith is that all my non-faith friends and co-workers spend there time drinking, partying, living like teenagers, cheating on their spouses, etc.

I'll admit, when I was first a father I continued some of this shenanigans, but I finally felt the need to be a role model and get out of these habits.

"But when I became a man, I gave up childish ways."

It has more to do with growing up, I think. Some people never do. I noticed a lot of cases of arrested development when I was in the Army.

 

[Sarah in SC]

Hmmmm.

Sounds like maybe there is some kind of external stress test or measuring stick that we need to apply to our marriage "to make sure it's solid".  Otherwise we should be worried about what'll happen when we are truly "tested".

Hmmmm.

I think not.  We're together.  We're happy.  Life is good.  Whatever happens, happens.  Luck probably has plenty to do with that, so we are grateful for our food fortune (knock on wood).  No need to validate or test or measure things ahead of time.  Live the best we can today and one day at a time......

Maybe that seems like "blissful ignorance".  Somehow I don't think so.....

Audrey

Hey Audrey, I think we all need to create some horrid drama to make "sure" our marriages are as good as we think they are! D'ya notice how often kids come up as the horrid drama? Hmmmm, yeah, no thanks!
Life has to suck for us to be sure we can make it?? Maybe the unexamined life is not so bad after all?
Sarah

 

[PsyopRanger]

You can't do anything about the length of your life, but you can do something about its width and depth. -H.L. Mencken

 

[ladelfina]

I find the phrase, "the marriage failed the test", curious.

.. I don't think it's helpful to view "the marriage" as some third entity (that needs work, like a car needs an oil change).

Tim's marriage did not fail the test.

Tim failed the test by not being able to figure out how not to let the arguments he had with his wife destroy his respect and love for her, so he left. (And/or vice versa.. of course this is not a one-way street, but I don't think people change overnight.) I would have suggested that Tim & wife try to figure out and resolve the underlying stress and handle it in a way that made them less irritable in general, and thus towards each other.

I'm unsure what kind of problems are "in the marriage", rather than "in these people's lives".. problems that everyone has to deal with in one form or another.. Single people also have financial and family pressures, which they somehow deal with on their own, so I'm not sure how getting a divorce helps things more than it complicates them.

Work on resolving financial issues => OK
Work on resolving family issues => ok
Work on the marriage =>

I'm not saying it's as easy as it sounds, but some couples look at challenges as something to be resolved together (or by mutally agreeing to designate one partner as the point person), and others say "if you would only..."... Getting all worked up over "the marriage" seems like trying to treat the symptoms without attempting to cure the underlying disease (and in fact could risk aggravating it).

I don't have kids so I know I have no first-hand experience of the pressures that kid problems can cause. But it's hard for me to imagine a scenario, however dire.. (I am really trying hard!) that would cause me to ditch my husband. Maybe if he got hit on the head and became a violent and abusive raging psycho..?

Maybe I am just whistling in the dark.. I dunno.

but I agree with audrey. (and Sarah)


P.S. "Whenever a husband and wife begin to discuss their marriage they are giving evidence at a coroner’s inquest."  -H.L. Mencken

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

In my experience, atheists are no more likely to do these things than religious folks.

I have the same experience.

That leads me to the question of morality in my other thread.

Also, my definition of a Christian is someone who truly tries to live by the morals and values of the faith, not someone who shows up to church and “acts” like they are Christian.

My only problem lies with the appearance that the folks who 'truly try to live by the morals and values of the faith' eventually expect everyone else to do the same.

 

[PsyopRanger]

My only problem lies with the appearance that the folks who 'truly try to live by the morals and values of the faith' eventually expect everyone else to do the same.

I totally agree, as I said I am not a believer in prostelization and those who do generally don’t value other peoples right to choose.

 

[PsyopRanger]

I find the phrase, "the marriage failed the test", curious.

.. I don't think it's helpful to view "the marriage" as some third entity (that needs work, like a car needs an oil change).

Tim's marriage did not fail the test.

Tim failed the test by not being able to figure out how not to let the arguments he had with his wife destroy his respect and love for her, so he left. (And/or vice versa.. of course this is not a one-way street, but I don't think people change overnight.) I would have suggested that Tim & wife try to figure out and resolve the underlying stress and handle it in a way that made them less irritable in general, and thus towards each other.

I'm unsure what kind of problems are "in the marriage", rather than "in these people's lives".. problems that everyone has to deal with in one form or another.. Single people also have financial and family pressures, which they somehow deal with on their own, so I'm not sure how getting a divorce helps things more than it complicates them.

Work on resolving financial issues => OK
Work on resolving family issues => ok
Work on the marriage =>

I'm not saying it's as easy as it sounds, but some couples look at challenges as something to be resolved together (or by mutally agreeing to designate one partner as the point person), and others say "if you would only..."... Getting all worked up over "the marriage" seems like trying to treat the symptoms without attempting to cure the underlying disease (and in fact could risk aggravating it).

I don't have kids so I know I have no first-hand experience of the pressures that kid problems can cause. But it's hard for me to imagine a scenario, however dire.. (I am really trying hard!) that would cause me to ditch my husband. Maybe if he got hit on the head and became a violent and abusive raging psycho..?

Maybe I am just whistling in the dark.. I dunno.

but I agree with audrey. (and Sarah)


P.S. "Whenever a husband and wife begin to discuss their marriage they are giving evidence at a coroner’s inquest."  -H.L. Mencken

This is my point, if the marriage would have had some conflict in it earlier and the Tim and his wife would have learned to deal with it, maybe the outcome would have been different?

Final note: I don't debate to argue my POV, I like to hear others POV as it helps me understand people better and makes me more acceptable to others ideas. Please no one take any offense or any comments personally.

I work in a field where my job is to try to influence foreign relations; I can’t turn it off sometimes.

 

[donheff]

Sooo

I should try golf?? - after a forty year lapse?? - just didn't work out the first time.

heh heh heh

When I retired last year I took up golf after a 39-40 year lapse. I played in high school but never got back to it. It always sounded like it would take up too much time. About six months after I ER'd I realized I could go out on weekdays when the courses are not crowded and gave it a shot. I enjoy it now and I got my son into it for some periodic bonding - he's 32 and lives nearby.

Take a lesson tyo get you swing in shape and pound a few balls at the range then give it a try.

 

[audreyh1]

Hmmmm.   Pre-breakfast post Audrey?

I think it was! LOL!

Audrey

 

[donheff]

Quote from: Cute Fuzzy Bunny on Today at 09:26:18 AM
My only problem lies with the appearance that the folks who 'truly try to live by the morals and values of the faith' eventually expect everyone else to do the same.
[\quote]

I totally agree, as I said I am not a believer in prostelization and those who do generally don’t value other peoples right to choose.

I am pretty close to an atheist now but was born and raised Catholic. I always thought that most Christian religions were as dogmatic in their own ways as Catholics - the fundamentalists' claim to exclusive rights to the label "Christian" over the last few decades cemented that view. But I recently read an interesting book titled "Stealing Jesus" by Bruce Bawer a very religious self described Christian who is gay. He paints a different picture of mainline protestant groups than I was ever aware of. Even the Baptists, who I always assumed to be amoung the "view it our way or burn in hell" group, were traditionally very open to individuals finding their own way and did not demand adherence to the apocalyptic dogma that currently reigns. And the founding fathers were a bunch of Deists and Unitarians. Jefferson predicted that the entire country would be Unitarian by the end of the 19th century.

A good read for those who are unfamiliar with the history of religion in the US and/or are interested in a more liberal view of Christianity.

 

[ladelfina]

Thanks for the book tip donheff.. it sounds very interesting and I definitely feel many established churches have indeed hijacked Jesus!

Psyop said:

if the marriage would have had some conflict in it earlier and the Tim and his wife would have learned to deal with it, maybe the outcome would have been different?

Huh?

This was the first difficult period. They couldn't hack it.

If the difficult period had come in 2002, what would have been different?
They wouldn't have been able to get over it then!!

If they "had learned to deal with it" then is the same thing as saying they have the potential to learn to deal with it NOW.

Or am I missing something? Are you saying there needs to be a ramping up of stress? a kind of tempering process? But I guess if you take anybody to a certain point they will snap. (you should know something about that, right, PsyOp?  )  How would you know if you have gone through "enough" to take the next hit?

Should they have to go through role-playing exercises like interrogation training so they can be assured they will be able to stand up and not crack? 


It all sounds way too complicated!
Plus, trust me, despite what you may have heard from your friend, there is something missing in this story. The five years of bliss I don't buy.. five years of obliviousness, maybe.. I think with most people you can tell pretty much how they will handle a situation when push comes to shove; you know who will cover your back. I think the good marriages come from that kind of trust and foreknowledge, not from trying to cobble something together after the fact, from material that wasn't sound to begin with.

I guess you are right, though.. if your friends spend all their time partying, it's a rude awakening when the "party's over!"

 

[PsyopRanger]

ladelfina,

Good points all around.

If you don't mind me asking? Where are you? I'm in the Veneto region.

 

[FlowGirl]

I find the phrase, "the marriage failed the test", curious.

.. I don't think it's helpful to view "the marriage" as some third entity (that needs work, like a car needs an oil change).

I'm unsure what kind of problems are "in the marriage", rather than "in these people's lives"..

I think this sums up my view pretty well too. Like everyone on the planet we've have had plenty of problems in our lives - family problems, money problems early on, 4+ years of separation due to military deployment, career negotiations and compromises, etc. etc. I consider these life problems or human problems not marriage problems. Many of the situations we've faced would have broken other people's marriages, and I've even seen people break up for far less. So at what point does the "test" begin? Do I have to personally feel like my marriage is about to fail before I pass?

 

[SteveR]

I have the same experience.

My only problem lies with the appearance that the folks who 'truly try to live by the morals and values of the faith' eventually expect everyone else to do the same.

Living in Morman ground zero I share your feelings. Add to that the influence on state, county and city governments with respect to morality by decree and intrusion into your personal freedoms for the sake of "protecting" the flock from themselves. It does get to be a bit much at times. Frequent vacations back to reality from time to time are helpful.

 

[Zathras]

In my opinion, another important thing to keep in mind is that in succesful marriages avoidance of stress is as important as how to deal with stress.

So if Harry deals poorly with a situation and hides his stress for a year and blows up, it is much more difficult than if Harry and Sally talk about it right away.

If the birth of a child is planned the couple has lots of time to discuss and plan for some of the coming stress. Obviously there will be surprises which can't be avoided.

I suspect good communication between the two people will be a big help with many situations. No garauntee but it helps

 

[FlowGirl]

Missed this question in my last reply.

Do you have kids? 

Ahh... the old "just wait until you have kids, then you'll change your tune" line of reasoning.

For the record:  5 months pregnant, living alone in a foreign country, with a husband getting ready to go back to the front lines of Iraq (like you he's a spec ops type and will be operating in a highly volatile AO).  I guess this one-ups quite a few people on the stress scale.  Am I worried?  Sure.  But not about my marriage. 

I'll give you a full update in a year or so.