Might be heading for divorce...

[FIREd]

Thanks for all the positive thoughts. I really appreciate it.

She is definitely adjusting to FIRE. The first 2 years after she retired, we lived in San Francisco and we were doing a lot of exploring and traveling. After we moved to the South, we spent a lot of time renovating the house and that kept us very busy. But since the beginning of this year, things have quieted down as we settled into a more "normal" FIRE lifestyle. And I think that she might be getting bored (though it suits me just fine). We still make a point of doing things together. Even now, with all the tension, we still go hiking and biking together at least once a week. But I can tell that she misses the excitement of the Bay Area. There is simply not as much to do around here.

The other thing is that her grandfather died in his late 40's of a heart attack. It has always been a source of angst for her and I think that she wants to have fun now because she is coming up on that age and she fears that it will happen to her too (it was a big driver for her decision to FIRE when she did).

I must admit that I have a hard time with the "do your thing and I'll do mine". Up until now, we have been like 2 peas in a pod and have always done everything together. I feel strange about the idea of traveling solo for example. But I am heartened to see that it works for a lot of people here. I hope that we can regain our individualities without breaking the bond between us.

 

[MichaelB]

Retirement, especially early, is a critical life change and a potential major cause of stress, could be affecting either of you, or both. Before concluding this is about irreconcibile lifestyle differences, I’d look to see if this is retirement related. Some individuals need a helping hand to learn how to move into that phase of life, or see their partners make that move.

 

[tb001]

I’m a little concerned on why you’re thinking divorce just because the two of you may be hitting a speed bump. It may not even have crossed her mind.

I would agree with this. OP, do you have a tendency to automatically go to the worst possible scenario? I know I do this, and I can see if you don't really fight that a bad fight can feel like the end because it's so unknown. I would encourage you to get counseling together, but also wonder if it's worth talking about your fears to DW. She may very well be shocked to hear that this is what you're worried about.

I can totally understand wanting to protect assets as well. When our marriage hit a speed bump, this was a big deal to me and I wasn't even thinking about retirement at the time. The last thing you want to be dealing with is a divorce and then stressing about whether your $ will be enough! No advice, but just wanted to chime in and say I get it.

 

[Alan]

My emotions are pretty raw at the moment, so please be kind.

My marriage of 17 years is going through a very rough patch (the first and only in 17 years, so I am not used to this). Until a couple of months ago, I thought that we had a pretty solid marriage. DW retired in 2015, 5 years after me, and the past 3 years have been pretty blissful. People who see us together think that we are a tight couple (even now).

But tension has been building up lately. There are no screaming matches or broken china, just simmering tension. We had a talk about it and, all of the sudden, I realized that we are not on the same page anymore. I want a quiet, non stressful life with her but now she wants a go-go fun life with friends (we are supposedly both introverts, so that came as a surprise). At first, I thought that she might be going through a midlife crisis but it seems worse than that. Things were said, hurtful (but true) things, on both sides. This was the most serious talk we have ever had and it left me reeling, unsure on how we move on from this. I always assumed that we would grow old together, but I am not so sure anymore. I will try to do my best to save the marriage (give her more space, crank up the fun, etc...) but I am not so sure that she will. At any rate, even though the word was never uttered, the specter of divorce is quite real in my mind.

Which brings me to FIRE. I feel like my FIRE plan could now be turned upside down. How do I prepare for the worst? If we are heading for the rocks, do I start to batten down the hatches financially? I already have a plan B in place but, honestly, it would require some belt tightening for a few years for me to get back to what I would consider solid financial footing on my own (WR<3%). Protecting my financial future is my utmost priority.

Any suggestion or wisdom on how to work through this both in terms of relationship and money? I have already made an appointment with a therapist (just for me) to talk it out because right now I am totally confused.

I am so, so sorry to hear this, I can’t imagine what you are going through right now and can’t offer any advice from personal knowledge of going through a divorce. FWIW, my wife and I have overall common interests but do pursue other interests both in and out of the house.

Concerning the paragraph I highlighted, particularly since you are the one that looks after the finances, I think that you are right to consider the possibility of needing separate budgets in the future and planning for that. I really hope it won’t come to that but it does need to be planned for.

 

[kcowan]

But the go-go fun life might be his interpretation of what she wants, she may just want to be more social with friends

I think this is a very valuable insight. While I agree that you need to do the financial analysis and I suspect you already have, having a frank conversation about how to satisfy her is the most productive thing you can do. Speaking for me and my current circle of friends, almost all couples represent a compromise because not many people are tied at the hip. Most of us have the wife as the outgoing networker. This is not always of necessity but because of interests. All have their own interests as well.

The other observation is that guys can bond with their buddies and often the wives do not like the mate. But when the wives bond with someone, the guys can put up with their less than ideal mate. This makes for better social involvement.

But this should be the nature of the first heart-to-heart meetings. No discussion of separate finances until this topic is totally dealt with. Since the latter might not be necessary, and bringing it up prematurely can lead to unnecessary antagonism.

In my case, I divorced after 26 years, but have been with my new mate for 23 years. All the above analysis relates to my current relationship. We have decided that, even though it is not ideal, it is good enough to keep us together hopefully for the duration!

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for all the positive thoughts. I really appreciate it.

She is definitely adjusting to FIRE. The first 2 years after she retired, we lived in San Francisco and we were doing a lot of exploring and traveling.

After we moved to the South, ... things have quieted down as we settled into a more "normal" FIRE lifestyle. And I think that she might be getting bored (though it suits me just fine).

... I must admit that I have a hard time with the "do your thing and I'll do mine". Up until now, we have been like 2 peas in a pod and have always done everything together. ...

Seems to me there are a lot of answers right there.

You lived in SF and did a lot of things together. You both enjoyed it.

You moved to the South, and now things are boring for her (not a slam against the South - could have been a smaller Northern town as well I would think).

But you seem to like this new life, so maybe to her view, you are the one who is leading the "do your thing and I'll do mine"approach?

Maybe you are the one who needs to change, and move to a more vibrant area? Let's not forget, we are all getting just one side of the story here.

I do hope you can work things out.

-ERD50

 

[FIREd]

I would agree with this. OP, do you have a tendency to automatically go to the worst possible scenario? I know I do this, and I can see if you don't really fight that a bad fight can feel like the end because it's so unknown. I would encourage you to get counseling together, but also wonder if it's worth talking about your fears to DW. She may very well be shocked to hear that this is what you're worried about.

Yes, I tend to go to the "worst case scenario" pretty quickly. This is why I want to talk it out with a therapist to see if I am overreacting (I have talked to friends about it but their advice are tinted with their own bias). But while the D word was never mentioned, the whole conversation had a pretty "final" tone to it (from my perspective at least). While I would day "we can get through this", she would say things like "I don't think we can get past this". And I am too afraid of the answer at the moment to even ask her to clarify her comments.

 

[FIREd]

Seems to me there are a lot of answers right there.

You lived in SF and did a lot of things together. You both enjoyed it.

You moved to the South, and now things are boring for her (not a slam against the South - could have been a smaller Northern town as well I would think).

But you seem to like this new life, so maybe to her view, you are the one who is leading the "do your thing and I'll do mine"approach?

Maybe you are the one who needs to change, and move to a more vibrant area? Let's not forget, we are all getting just one side of the story here.

I do hope you can work things out.

-ERD50

She is the one who decided that we should move south to be close to her mother. We lived here before so she knew what she was getting into. But I would not mind at all going back to the Bay Area.

 

[bmcgonig]

Seems to me there are a lot of answers right there.

You lived in SF and did a lot of things together. You both enjoyed it.

You moved to the South, and now things are boring for her (not a slam against the South - could have been a smaller Northern town as well I would think).

But you seem to like this new life, so maybe to her view, you are the one who is leading the "do your thing and I'll do mine"approach?

Maybe you are the one who needs to change, and move to a more vibrant area? Let's not forget, we are all getting just one side of the story here.

I do hope you can work things out.

-ERD50

Would she like for you both to move back to the Bay Area? Is there someway you could do that or maybe buy a condo there where you can both visit? Maybe broach that with her so that she at least sees that you're thinking about her as well as yourself. If she sees that you're willing to go much of the way towards her side, she might move farther towards your side.

If it's down to well you're happy where you are and she isn't, something has to give. Even though you both agreed to do this it still might not be the right decision for her.

 

[ERD50]

She is the one who decided that we should move south to be close to her mother. We lived here before so she knew what she was getting into. But I would not mind at all going back to the Bay Area.

OK, sounds like a place to focus the discussion with her. Maybe she has changed her mind on that? Or maybe it's not the geographic area, it's only the activity level.

So the activity level has changed (sounds like it has), you are good with it, she's not. You used to do activities together, now not so much.

Sounds like you have changed more than she has. It may be you who needs to do most of the adjusting. Again, hard to say from a distance and with one side of the story, just food for thought.

-ERD50

 

[haha]

But while the D word was never mentioned, the whole conversation had a pretty "final" tone to it (from my perspective at least). While I would day "we can get through this", she would say things like "I don't think we can get past this". And I am too afraid of the answer at the moment to even ask her to clarify her comments.

Only FIREd has heard and seen these interactions. Last night, when I read what he said, I thought the hull has been holed, emergency! Then this am I reread his posts, and I thought they have retired, she has quit work after a successful and respected career, and they have moved from the max chaos and stimulation of one of America's most stimulating and socially liberal cities to somewhere that is likely less of both of these things. Of course there is going to be stress.

But then I read "I don't think we can get past this". This is a serious statement that would tell me if I were the husband that the weather had certainly changed. The question is has the climate changed, or just the weather? I feel fairly certain that he is better off stopping talking about this online. In truth no one knows, but realistic precautions should be observed.

ha

 

[Rianne]

I can only speak from personal experience. Your situation is heart breaking.

DH and me moved 5 times in our marriage. I hated 2 of the locations we moved to and was miserable. DH career trumped mine, but I have an MBA and found jobs in every location we moved. Put this in perspective. I could not have children due to medical issues. I had breast cancer which changed our sex life ( not for the better). Early on in our marriage, we faced bankruptcy due to a catastrophic error DH made in a business decision. In a nutshell, he did not consult with attorneys before making the decision. We were so lucky as his friend from grade school became a successful attorney and helped us out, not for free! It got us out from under and we are grateful.

Divorce crossed our minds many times. I would have done fine on my own. We struggled and fought, became distant and went our own way for long periods of time. Much like strangers in the night or roommates for convenience. I have no advice as your situation is unique. I only hope to point out, reach out to others and consider situations that might apply to yours. You cannot control your DW wishes but sit down and look at all options.

After 33 years, our dreams aren't exactly as we hoped, but we're pretty darn happy and yes, in love. I cringe when I recall the many times I wanted to walk out. I'm sure DH the same. When the dust settled, we realized we were in the best situation after examining our options. The grass is always greener.

One other thing, I often looked at other couples thinking I wish we were like them. They seemed happy, in love, sharing beautiful experiences. I discovered, behind closed doors, it was very different. It is up to you and your DW to decide, will life be better after the divorce? Will the sky open up and suddenly life is good? Will the future be rainbows and sunshine? It sounds silly, but I often pictured this wonderful renewal after our divorce. We did not get that divorce, but that is my story.

 

[Bestwifeever]

She is definitely adjusting to FIRE. The first 2 years after she retired, we lived in San Francisco and we were doing a lot of exploring and traveling. After we moved to the South, we spent a lot of time renovating the house and that kept us very busy. But since the beginning of this year, things have quieted down....

.... I can tell that she misses the excitement of the Bay Area. There is simply not as much to do around here.

Perhaps it is situational too, as much as if not more than your relationship. If I recall, you put a lot of thought into retiring back to her “home town” (maybe not literally but in the region). Maybe that was the wrong decision? Nothing wrong with rethinking that now without blame.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

She is the one who decided that we should move south to be close to her mother. We lived here before so she knew what she was getting into. But I would not mind at all going back to the Bay Area.

If you are concerned about the cost of living, it is less expensive out in the suburbs than the city and there is still a lot to do. We were in Sonoma on the weekend and thought about moving there again as it was so pretty. And with being retired you can and go into the city for the museums and night life during non-rush hours. Or you could move to a place like San Diego or Orange County with nice weather, fun activities and less expensive housing than up here.

 

[FIREd]

Thanks all for sharing your experience and wisdom. There is a lot of food for thought in this thread. Let the hard work begin on the relationship.

But with divorce a possibility, are there steps to take on the financial side while we figure this thing out? I am not talking about hiding assets from her. I am thinking along the lines of minimizing damage to both of our financial futures:

-if we split our assets, our individual standard of living is bound to drop. Do we need to focus more on capital preservation at this stage? I would hate to be hit by a bear market and an asset split all at the same time.
-do we start cutting our budget now to preserve our capital?

 

[Carpediem]

So sorry for what you're going through, FIREd. Been there, done that, and all that other stuff. Just curious - are there any trust or jealousy issues in your marriage? I speak from experience - I've had to check myself more than once related to that. Is your DW's need for "go go fun" causing some trust issues to surface or is it causing you to experience some outside threat factors to your marriage? I'm not trying to place blame on one side or the other - just trying to help identify possible causes.

I truly do wish you all the best. The big 'D' sux (and I'm not talking about 'Dallas').

 

[48Fire]

My emotions are pretty raw at the moment, so please be kind.

Any suggestion or wisdom on how to work through this both in terms of relationship and money? I have already made an appointment with a therapist (just for me) to talk it out because right now I am totally confused.

Sorry to hear FIREd. Your situation is very similar to ours at the moment.

We have been married 34 years, and most outsiders believe we have a perfect marriage. Last week we didn't hit a speed bump - it was a brick wall. And during this period, we had a friend imply that we were soul mates. After looking up the definition, maybe we are, although some days and weeks are very challenging. This after 5 years of ER. And neither one of us saw this coming. Last year, a similar brick wall, but some of life's major events took precedence over the day-to-day annoyances.

We had another one of those "where do we go from here" discussions. My wife is not a fan of counseling, although if I issued an ultimatum, I think she would go along with it. I told her it one point I was going to get my own counseling to see if I could do better, or at least emerge from the darkness.

The alternative that we agreed on was to wipe the slate clean. Easy to say, and we both know there is still a lot of work left. That said, the past week has been very blissful, like it usually is, and like we hope will be more of the norm in the future. So maybe we are soulmates if we can work through this.

And during the last brick wall, I did spend a little time looking at our financial future. Like your wife, mine is clueless on finances. Sometimes she asks me things like, "Do we have a mortgage?" That's just the way she is. I looked at it like I looked at ER. What would my expenses, her expenses, etc. Would we have to sell the house? Where would we live, etc. It really did not feel like the situation was going to come to a happy conclusion.

Your differences are a challenge, no doubt, but I know couples who work through this as well. Good luck to you, and PM me if you want to share personal stories

 

[tmm99]

having a frank conversation about how to satisfy her is the most productive thing you can do.

I don't have much time now, but I personally think a lot of marriages can be saved by doing this. Instead of trying to figure out what she wants, and doing what you think is what she wants, ask. Ask her what she wants, not in a vague term like "I want to be happy", but get to the point where you actually understand what SHE wants YOU to do. Asking that, and doing those things will show her your love, courage, and desire to want to spend time with her, be with her, and make her happy.

 

[kgtest]

The first thing you worry about is the dough?

I just saw my DS get taken to the cleaners. She had almost 750k and 7 properties at 43, now she has 140k and 2 properties.


She insisted she still loved him.



But yeah, I would read "The five love languages" and create a family mission statement. See how far apart you are, and seek counseling to bridge that gap.



The other path is to separate which is terrible, but sometimes the only option.

 

[kgtest]

I am not talking about hiding assets from her. I am thinking along the lines of minimizing damage to both of our financial futures:

-if we split our assets, our individual standard of living is bound to drop. Do we need to focus more on capital preservation at this stage? I would hate to be hit by a bear market and an asset split all at the same time.
-do we start cutting our budget now to preserve our capital?

DS went through two divorces. The second was nasty, both had custody to deal with...but the money side of the split was not good.


They both spent a combined 100k+ on lawyers alone over three years time. Not just my sister being sued, my dad, businesses, OTHER LAWYERS... Nasty.





What HE DID - Bought a mini-van right before he filed, used my sisters cash as that seemed like the best source. Took out a claim on the main residence roof, never had the work done. Hired a few contractors and never paid them. Decided not to pay taxes ...ever, the kicker...he's a sole proprietor. This one to me was the best, said he owned the business (so we thought), no he's a salesmen for the owner of a business.


Hired two Private Investigators (PIs), one to keep the other straight and multiple law firms.



Cleaned out both bank accounts and checking and put the cash in safes. Since mom moved out, would convince kids to bring over there xboxes and playstations as it was safer at "dads", only to pawn them.


Began heckling tenants of co-owned properties to move out.


Damn, I was gonna type the whole list but I would be dead by then.





My sister's advice on divorce "Well, it's like a baby, ready or not, it'll be here in 9months once someone files".

 

[aja8888]

I went through a California divorce in the late 1980's after 17 years of marriage. We had two teenage daughters at the time and all the perks a VP has in a great job

California divorces are NOT FUN for the guy. The whole thing cost me a fortune for the lawyers and I thought it would never end. The only way I got to a final sign off was to move out of state and threaten her and her attorney that I would stop paying invoices and temporary support if we didn't quit the bickering and bullsh!t money searches.

I lost two Thousand Oaks, California houses over this WAR and our daughters are scarred for life. i hope the OP has no children when and if the WAR starts.

As far as finances, no advice here but expect the WAR to be a run on the banks and the attorneys (both) will try to keep their invoicing machine pumping them out to you indefinitely.

Try to fix this and stay married. You really don't want to go down the divorce path as your "soulmate" will immediately become your enemy.

 

[Mdlerth]

Einstein was wrong. Love > compound interest

My marriage of 17 years is going through a very rough patch (the first and only in 17 years, so I am not used to this). Until a couple of months ago, I thought that we had a pretty solid marriage.

Only one rough patch in 17 years? That is off-the-charts good.

But now your nuptial ship has encountered stormy waters and you're considering heading for the lifeboats. As I've noted on these pages before, I am a strong believer in preserving marriage, so I wouldn't do it.

I know the point of your letter was about how a potential divorce would affect your FIRE. Plenty of earlier posters have been offering advice about record-keeping and asset protection strategies and lawyers. I don't doubt for a moment that they all are sincere and accurate, based on their own divorce experiences. I have sympathy for them and I don't minimize the agonizing setbacks they suffered.

But surely saving the marriage makes it all moot. I would do whatever it takes to make that happen. Remember why you married her - because you loved her. Believe in love. It's the most powerful force on earth.

My own upcoming retirement will roughly parallel yours. DW loves to travel and entertain. I don't love those things. But I love DW, so I'll travel and entertain. Because it's not about me...

...nor is it about her. It's about us. God bless you both.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Do we need to focus more on capital preservation at this stage? I would hate to be hit by a bear market and an asset split all at the same time.
-do we start cutting our budget now to preserve our capital?

We're continually optimizing expenses in retirement and because our overhead is low it allows us to invest for capital preservation. We just do that as a lifestyle choice not because we are getting divorced. Our general thought process is experiences over things, and most of our experiences are pretty inexpensive - like hiking or going to art museums.

We've found the relationship training to be really helpful and a lot cheaper than a divorce. I think if both spouses are motivated it is possible to learn the skills to have a better relationship just like one can learn to drive a car or play tennis. And the relationship training helps with other areas, too, not just a spouse. We do have friends that have moved away to lower cost of living areas in retirement and then found themselves bored, so I don't think what your wife is experiencing is unusual.

 

[Silver]

Both my DH and I had been divorced from long term marriages before we married each other 11 years ago. Both of our divorces were a shock to us because, unknown to us, our spouses had detached from the relationships long before we knew there were issues.

What we learned was that communication is key. If one spouse refuses to talk about how they view the relationship, it becomes very difficult to discern if there is a path forward together. It was at that point I started to explore options that were in my own best interest.

Joint counseling is great....but that didn't help my situation because my DH refused to be truthful in counseling sessions. He had already left the marriage but couldn't/wouldn't be honest about it.

It's a very emotional time for everyone and it's hard not to let that shade judgement. Communication is the only tool I know that helps clarify any path forward.

 

[dvalley]

I went through a California divorce in the late 1980's after 17 years of marriage. We had two teenage daughters at the time and all the perks a VP has in a great job

California divorces are NOT FUN for the guy. The whole thing cost me a fortune for the lawyers and I thought it would never end. The only way I got to a final sign off was to move out of state and threaten her and her attorney that I would stop paying invoices and temporary support if we didn't quit the bickering and bullsh!t money searches.

I lost two Thousand Oaks, California houses over this WAR and our daughters are scarred for life. i hope the OP has no children when and if the WAR starts.

As far as finances, no advice here but expect the WAR to be a run on the banks and the attorneys (both) will try to keep their invoicing machine pumping them out to you indefinitely.

Try to fix this and stay married. You really don't want to go down the divorce path as your "soulmate" will immediately become your enemy.

Spot on! Not much has changed since the 80s btw - I can tell you that.

I'm completely against marriage now, the financial price you pay (on top of the emotional one) isn't worth it. The laws are messed up, if it was a fair system the person wanting the divorce would pay for wanting to end what's supposed to be a 'till death do us apart' contract. Not the other way around.